Familiar "Deliver Touch" questions


Rules Questions


First of all, provided that I do not cast a spell for the entire day after making the Familiar hold a spell, could I make a familiar hold onto a Touch spell until the next day?

Also, if I have Reach Spell metamagic feat, can i make my familiar hold a Touch spell that has been meta-magicked into a ranged spell? Or make the spell become a ranged spell when my familiar releases it?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
KunoichiSong wrote:
First of all, provided that I do not cast a spell for the entire day after making the Familiar hold a spell, could I make a familiar hold onto a Touch spell until the next day?

Ask your GM. I wouldn't allow it to hold the spell so long without accidentally touching something.

Remember, an accidental touch discharge the held spell.

KunoichiSong wrote:


Also, if I have Reach Spell metamagic feat, can i make my familiar hold a Touch spell that has been meta-magicked into a ranged spell? Or make the spell become a ranged spell when my familiar releases it?

No, it is a ranged spell when launched and should immediately resolved as such.


Diego Rossi wrote:


Remember, an accidental touch discharge the held spell.

Since when was that a thing? I don't see it anywhere on the Familiars page...


KunoichiSong wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


Remember, an accidental touch discharge the held spell.
Since when was that a thing? I don't see it anywhere on the Familiars page...

From the Combat Section of the CRB:

PRD wrote:
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.


KunoichiSong wrote:
First of all, provided that I do not cast a spell for the entire day after making the Familiar hold a spell, could I make a familiar hold onto a Touch spell until the next day?

I think it's unreasonable to think that the familiar wouldn't discharge a held spell for a whole day. A few minutes at most.

KunoichiSong wrote:
Also, if I have Reach Spell metamagic feat, can i make my familiar hold a Touch spell that has been meta-magicked into a ranged spell? Or make the spell become a ranged spell when my familiar releases it?

I think this is fine. Your arcane bond allows you to deliver touch spells through your familiar, and (for example) chill touch is certainly a touch spell. And reach chill touch is the same spell, it just allows you to touch your target at close range instead of at touch range. You or your familiar can hold the charge as normal, until you cast another spell or your familiar touches something to disrupt it.


eriktd wrote:
KunoichiSong wrote:
Also, if I have Reach Spell metamagic feat, can i make my familiar hold a Touch spell that has been meta-magicked into a ranged spell? Or make the spell become a ranged spell when my familiar releases it?
I think this is fine. Your arcane bond allows you to deliver touch spells through your familiar, and (for example) chill touch is certainly a touch spell. And reach chill touch is the same spell, it just allows you to touch your target at close range instead of at touch range. You or your familiar can hold the charge as normal, until you cast another spell or your familiar touches something to disrupt it.

Reach Spell says that "[s]pells modified by this feat that require melee touch attacks instead require ranged touch attacks." You can't hold charges for ranged touch attacks, and so you can't hold charges for a Reach Chill Touch spell. Furthermore, Familiars only get the ability to deliver melee touch attacks, not ranged touch attacks, so it couldn't make the attacks for you even if it was possible to hold the charges.


Gisher wrote:
eriktd wrote:
KunoichiSong wrote:
Also, if I have Reach Spell metamagic feat, can i make my familiar hold a Touch spell that has been meta-magicked into a ranged spell? Or make the spell become a ranged spell when my familiar releases it?
I think this is fine. Your arcane bond allows you to deliver touch spells through your familiar, and (for example) chill touch is certainly a touch spell. And reach chill touch is the same spell, it just allows you to touch your target at close range instead of at touch range. You or your familiar can hold the charge as normal, until you cast another spell or your familiar touches something to disrupt it.
Reach Spell says that "[s]pells modified by this feat that require melee touch attacks instead require ranged touch attacks." You can't hold charges for ranged touch attacks, and so you can't hold charges for a Reach Chill Touch spell. Furthermore, Familiars only get the ability to deliver melee touch attacks, not ranged touch attacks, so it couldn't make the attacks for you even if it was possible to hold the charges.

This doesn't change the spells type just the range, The spell is still a touch spell. That line in the reach reat just tells you it is now a Dex attack and not a strength attack. Ranged vs. melee.


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A touch spell is only defined as such by its range. There is no "type", otherwise. And the combat section says, "Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn."


Gisher wrote:
Reach Spell says that "[s]pells modified by this feat that require melee touch attacks instead require ranged touch attacks." You can't hold charges for ranged touch attacks, and so you can't hold charges for a Reach Chill Touch spell. Furthermore, Familiars only get the ability to deliver melee touch attacks, not ranged touch attacks, so it couldn't make the attacks for you even if it was possible to hold the charges.

The way I see it, chill touch says you can use this touch attack up to one time per level. Yes, Reach Spell changes it from a melee touch attack to a ranged touch attack, but this doesn't take away the part of the spell that allows you to hold the charge and deliver additional attacks. The spell is still Range:touch, because Reach Spell just increases the distance that the spell can affect. And since reach chill touch is a touch spell, you can still give it to your familiar to deliver, regardless of the increased range within which the spell's controller can attack.


Melikiador has stated things correctly. Range: Touch is what makes a spell a touch spell. If you use Reach Spell to change the range, then the spell is, by definition, no longer a touch spell.


Gisher wrote:
Melikiador has stated things correctly. Range: Touch is what makes a spell a touch spell. If you use Reach Spell to change the range, then the spell is, by definition, no longer a touch spell.

Reach Spell doesn't change the spell's range, it increases its range. The way I see it, this makes a Range: Touch spell reach further than it normally does, but doesn't change the spell's parameters.

Scarab Sages

eriktd wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Melikiador has stated things correctly. Range: Touch is what makes a spell a touch spell. If you use Reach Spell to change the range, then the spell is, by definition, no longer a touch spell.
Reach Spell doesn't change the spell's range, it increases its range. The way I see it, this makes a Range: Touch spell reach further than it normally does, but doesn't change the spell's parameters.

It requires a ranged touch attack therefore it can not be used as a melee touch attack, it there fore no longer has range: touch. IF its range awas touch -30ft, that would be an 'increased' range, but it loses range touch if it requires a ranged touch.


eriktd wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Melikiador has stated things correctly. Range: Touch is what makes a spell a touch spell. If you use Reach Spell to change the range, then the spell is, by definition, no longer a touch spell.
Reach Spell doesn't change the spell's range, it increases its range. The way I see it, this makes a Range: Touch spell reach further than it normally does, but doesn't change the spell's parameters.

Range is a spell parameter. If you change the range then you have changed a spell parameter.

There are a number of distinct range categories. Here are the most common.

CRB wrote:

Range

A spell's range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the range entry of the spell description. A spell's range is the maximum distance from you that the spell's effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell's point of origin. If any portion of the spell's area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following.

Personal: The spell affects only you.

Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.

Close: The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you. The maximum range increases by 5 feet for every two full caster levels.

Medium: The spell reaches as far as 100 feet + 10 feet per caster level.

Long: The spell reaches as far as 400 feet + 40 feet per caster level.

Unlimited: The spell reaches anywhere on the same plane of existence.

Range Expressed in Feet: Some spells have no standard range category, just a range expressed in feet.

To be a Touch spell means that the spell has a range of Touch. Spells with a range of Close are not Touch spells, even if they require ranged touch attacks. It is important to make that distinction. Despite the similarity in wording, ranged touch attacks are not touch attacks, and requiring ranged touch attacks does not mean that a spell is a Touch spell.

Reach Spell wrote:

Reach Spell (Metamagic)

Your spells go farther than normal.

Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium to increase its range to a higher range category, using the following order: touch, close, medium, and long. A reach spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level for each increase in range category. For example, a spell with a range of touch increased to long range uses up a spell slot three levels higher. Spells modified by this feat that require melee touch attacks instead require ranged touch attacks.

Spells that do not have a range of touch, close, or medium do not benefit from this feat.

So Reach Spell actually changes the range category. It doesn't increase the range within a category. A Reach Shocking Grasp spell has a range of Close and requires a ranged touch attack. It does not have a range of Touch and is not delivered through a touch attack. It is not a Touch spell.


eriktd wrote:
Reach Spell doesn't change the spell's range, it increases its range. The way I see it, this makes a Range: Touch spell reach further than it normally does, but doesn't change the spell's parameters.
Gisher wrote:
Range is a spell parameter. If you change the range then you have changed a spell parameter.

As I said, I don't agree that Reach Spell actually changes the spell parameter. I think it increases the range that the touch spell can affect. As I see it, reach chill touch has Range: Touch, and the spell's controller can reach the equivalent of close range when casting it. I also don't see any rule that says that a spell with a ranged touch attack is not a touch spell by definition.

Consider this from the other way, perhaps. Suppose a magus casts scorching ray using the Close Range magus arcana. Do we agree that this does not make the spell a touch spell simply because it changes the ranged touch attack to a melee touch attack?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
eriktd wrote:


Consider this from the other way, perhaps. Suppose a magus casts scorching ray using the Close Range magus arcana. Do we agree that this does not make the spell a touch spell simply because it changes the ranged touch attack to a melee touch attack?
PRD wrote:
Close Range (Ex): The magus can deliver ray spells that feature a ranged touch attack as melee touch spells. He can use a ranged touch attack spell that targets more than one creature (such as scorching ray), but he makes only one melee touch attack to deliver one of these ranged touch effects; additional ranged touch attacks from that spell are wasted and have no effect. These spells can be used with the spellstrike class feature.

What it say? "as melee touch spells".

Yes, it make them touch spells. You lose the ability to affect multiple targets and you don't provoke for making a ranged attack.


It sounds like we agree that a Close Range scorching ray is not a touch spell just because it decreases the range, since the ability must specify that it is treated as a touch spell. A "melee touch spell," I note, the wording of which suggests to me that there is such a thing as a ranged touch spell.

If it were possible to extend the range of a touch spell out to range: close, medium, or long, how do you think it would be worded? (As a side note, I always picture this looking like a spectral hand.) How would that be different from the wording of Reach Spell?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

"Touch" refer to the kind of AC you target, you know, not to the range.

PRD wrote:
Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.

Melee/ranged define the range.

If you want to discuss rules you should learn how some term has different meaning in different contexts.
Trams like touch, level and a few others are used with different meaning in different sections fo the rules.


I notice you seem to keep conflating a spell with range: touch, a touch spell, and a spell with a touch attack. That makes it very hard to communicate the intricacies of this question, because they are all slightly different concepts.

Anyway, Original Poster, there is some variation on interpretation of these rules, so feel free to share my support with your GM and see what they think.

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