So I am working on a squad of ratfolk. 12 of them are using Tower Shields and Swarming to create a wall of Total Cover all around them. Currently I am designing the Artillery Character who will be their firepower. Anyway so as there are Casters in the world who could launch all the fireballs I am trying to figure out best class for the artillery to be able to focus stopping spells.
Some would suggest simply readying ranged attacks or spells like Magic Missile (or something not as easily countered via Shield) is the best way to stop another spellcaster.
They're probably right, but I've also been toying with the idea for a Dispel/Counterspell-focused Arcanist that might work. While most of the time, dispel checks are difficult to pass because of caster level (CL) issues (the idea being that an equal leveled caster has a 50/50 shot of succeeding on the check).
You can change the odds considerably with the requisite focus, though it will require a major investment of feats and exploits.
The basic crux of the concept is that the character uses the Potent Magic exploit, the Dispel Focus feat (and possibly Greater Dispel Focus), the Spell Specialization feat (albeit with the unfortunate feat tax of Spell Focus: Abjuration) and the Gifted Adept trait for Dispel Magic. Use Myrrh as a component for an additional bonus.
Collectively, thse provide something like a +8 on the CL check (or +10 with Greater Dispel Focus), which should give a high chance of success in any CR appropriate encounter. You could go even higher if you picked up a feat like Varisian Tattoo, or otherwise eked out further CL boosts (such as via a certain ioun stone).
Of course, the same Arcanist would also take the Counterspell exploits for an alternate way to negate enemy casting (such as if he/she runs out of spell slots, but retains Arcane Reservoir points).
Because of the extreme feat/exploit investment, it might realistically be better suited as an NPC build than for a PC, but it sounds like that might be what you're looking for anyways.
if the goal is to have a character sit in the middle of the tower shield formation and launch spells out while still defending against enemy spell casters, then I would go for a Arcanist for immediate action counterspelling.
if the goal is to have a character sit in the middle of the tower shield formation and launch spells out while still defending against enemy spell casters, then I would go for a Arcanist for immediate action counterspelling.
Launch Spells or use Dimensional Slide for teleportating Spring Attack.
On another note, I just found the Disruptive and Spellbreaker feats, but they require fighter levels. So I must add 2 questions.
1) Is there a way to gain them as an Arcanist?
2) Are they worth it.
Your initial idea doesn't work at all without special class/abilities.
Tower shield only provides cover for you, not your allies on anyone else. I know there is some sort of ability (either feat or class feature) that does alter this but I can't remember what it's called.
It also doesn't stop any attacks from the top.
If you're goal is to defeat casters you will need very specific abilities to beat them.
1) Something to make them stay put. And by stay put I mean stopping teleportation, plane shift, dimensional step, etc. If you don't block the avenue for escape, they will simply leave before you can kill them (most likely).
2) You need a way to shutdown their spell casting ability. Grappling is one good way. Silence (cast on yourself and being near the caster). Casters don't often prepare many spells with the Silent Spell metamagic feat, so they wont have options for casting.
3) Lastly, killing them. Any mundanes means are fine, doesn't matter. You just have to worry about getting close enough to them for long enough to kill them.
A wizard threatened by such an overwhelming force is going to run away rather than fight. If you can't stop them from running you can't ever kill them.
An unorthodox alternative would be a Primalist Bloodrager with Arcane bloodline. The best anti-mage is that which kills the mage.
Doesn't work at all without special class/abilities.
Tower shield only provides cover for you, not your allies on anyone else. I know there is some sort of ability (either feat or class feature) that does alter this but I can't remember what it's called.
It also doesn't stop any attacks from the top.
If you're goal is to defeat casters you will need very specific abilities to beat them.
1) Something to make them stay put. And by stay put I mean stopping teleportation, plane shift, dimensional step, etc. If you don't block the avenue for escape, they will simply leave before you can kill them (most likely).
2) You need a way to shutdown their spell casting ability. Grappling is one good way. Silence (cast on yourself and being near the caster). Casters don't often prepare many spells with the Silent Spell metamagic feat, so they wont have options for casting.
3) Lastly, killing them. Any mundanes means are fine, doesn't matter. You just have to worry about getting close enough to them for long enough to kill them.A wizard threatened by such an overwhelming force is going to run away rather than fight. If you can't stop them from running you can't ever kill them.
I have already dealt with the fact that they only provide cover for you, I found the feat needed. Also as for killing Casters, this squad is more for escorting people.
Oh also with number 2, would a metamagic rod work? I mean so I can still cast spells even after the Silence.
Arcane Archer with Antimagic Field arrows.
A rod of Silent Spell would work to allow you to cast spells from inside a silenced area.
However, the best counter a to a spell caster is not necessarily a spell caster, but someone that can use very specific magic items/spells to get in a position to kill a caster.
Invisibility + mind blank is very effective, I believe there are items that can give you both.
Also keep in mind that while the tower shield ability is "neat" it's still not very effective. The wizard only needs to attack you from above. A fireball placed directly above the column will hit everyone. If you have enough people to use the standard action to present cover above and to the side you still end up with corners unprotected (only two ratfolk can share a space) and corners need both sides and above to protect.
In my opinion a large group is inadvisable. 1 person who has specific support to get to and kill the target before they can act is what you need. If the wizard gets to take any actions before they die they could potentially escape or defeat you.
For those saying tower shield formations don't protect from the top. Edge soldiers hold shields vertically, as normal. Inner formation soldiers hold their shields horizontally above their heads. It is commonly called the "Turtle" and has been used at least since the ancient Greeks. In the Middle Ages when the pike was used primarily it is a scary formation defensively. Also called the "Hedgehog" for obvious reasons.
Combine this with sensibly designed Banner Magic, a formation makes sense in a magic world.
While it can work in the real world because the formation is tightly packed, it doesn't work in pathfinder mechanics because you can't fit enough people into one space. Only 2 ratfolk can occupy a square, and corners need to protect 3 directions which wont be possible.
Ok first off, who said I was having these guys above Ground? They are going be decent high level when they are introduced into the campaign, due to their classes this means they can reposition a Tower Shield as an immediate action as long as its not to block an attack. Which means I have them reposition it So that they don't provide cover when the Artillery is firing. Then immediately position to cover up again.
This leads me to this, who said they were going be above ground in open air. They are escorting people in the underground, so there is isn't much above a lot of the time.
Even if they aren't underground, the artillery is supposed to be blocking magic! The only problem is arrows, and I know plenty of feats to deal with those!
Also for the Anti magic Field Arrows. That would be taking till I can cast level 8 spells. So so far it would seem the best option is the Arcanist from what I am reading.
I don't see a good way to do ranged attacks with a Bloodrager and they are pretty low on magic.
if the goal is to have a character sit in the middle of the tower shield formation and launch spells out while still defending against enemy spell casters, then I would go for a Arcanist for immediate action counterspelling.
If you have total cover from your opponents, your opponents have total cover from you.
If you're goal is to defeat casters you will need very specific abilities to beat them.
Anything that deals continuous damage will force concentration checks.
Anything that blocks line of sight will prevent most spells.How feasible this is depends on level. Alchemist fire is devastating to a low level wizard. Not so much at high level.
if the goal is to have a character sit in the middle of the tower shield formation and launch spells out while still defending against enemy spell casters, then I would go for a Arcanist for immediate action counterspelling.If you have total cover from your opponents, your opponents have total cover from you.
Due to abilities from the Tower Shield Specialist I will be able to reposition the shield as a immediate action, as long as it's not to block an attack. So I can move it out of the way Cast a spell or something having line of site, then move it back into place!
Claxon,
You are more knowledgeable on the rules than I am, you said:
While it can work in the real world because the formation is tightly packed, it doesn't work in pathfinder mechanics because you can't fit enough people into one space. Only 2 ratfolk can occupy a square, and corners need to protect 3 directions which wont be possible.
Didn't I read somewhere that there is a Troop subtype that deals with this issue?
Kind of like a swarm of soldiers. (Mad Monkeys are funner though)
I may be out in left field, but shouldn't this also be addressed in teamwork concepts?
I think the best way is a plain old archer build. Counterspelling requires resources and skill checks. Straight damage causes an inevitable and difficult concentration check. Readying vital strikes works excellently. While counterspelling can be done, readying a distracting a distracting fireball is better.
Also disruptive ain't too good. Requires you to stay near them and be vulnerable to their friends, and the feat would be better spent on more damage to boost concentration DC's.
I think the best way is a plain old archer build. Counterspelling requires resources and skill checks. Straight damage causes an inevitable and difficult concentration check. Readying vital strikes works excellently. While counterspelling can be done, readying a distracting a distracting fireball is better.
Also disruptive ain't too good. Requires you to stay near them and be vulnerable to their friends, and the feat would be better spent on more damage to boost concentration DC's.
Archery is especially effective with Overwatch Style for this sort of thing. Tack as much damage as possible onto it to increase the concentration check DC to cast when hit. Possibly include ongoing damaging effects. Slow burn arrows. Tangleshot arrows. Bleeding arrows.
Archery is especially effective with Overwatch Style for this sort of thing.I think the best way is a plain old archer build. Counterspelling requires resources and skill checks. Straight damage causes an inevitable and difficult concentration check. Readying vital strikes works excellently. While counterspelling can be done, readying a distracting a distracting fireball is better.
Also disruptive ain't too good. Requires you to stay near them and be vulnerable to their friends, and the feat would be better spent on more damage to boost concentration DC's.
Perfect. Wait can a ranged spellstrike be readied using Overwatch?
Archery is especially effective with Overwatch Style for this sort of thing.I think the best way is a plain old archer build. Counterspelling requires resources and skill checks. Straight damage causes an inevitable and difficult concentration check. Readying vital strikes works excellently. While counterspelling can be done, readying a distracting a distracting fireball is better.
Also disruptive ain't too good. Requires you to stay near them and be vulnerable to their friends, and the feat would be better spent on more damage to boost concentration DC's.
Wasn't there recently sone thread arguing about the feat? Something about readying full round actions.
Perfect. Wait can a ranged spellstrike be readied using Overwatch?Archery is especially effective with Overwatch Style for this sort of thing.I think the best way is a plain old archer build. Counterspelling requires resources and skill checks. Straight damage causes an inevitable and difficult concentration check. Readying vital strikes works excellently. While counterspelling can be done, readying a distracting a distracting fireball is better.
Also disruptive ain't too good. Requires you to stay near them and be vulnerable to their friends, and the feat would be better spent on more damage to boost concentration DC's.
That would be readying a spell. You just happen to deliver it through a weapon. Should work.
Perfect. Wait can a ranged spellstrike be readied using Overwatch?Archery is especially effective with Overwatch Style for this sort of thing.I think the best way is a plain old archer build. Counterspelling requires resources and skill checks. Straight damage causes an inevitable and difficult concentration check. Readying vital strikes works excellently. While counterspelling can be done, readying a distracting a distracting fireball is better.
Also disruptive ain't too good. Requires you to stay near them and be vulnerable to their friends, and the feat would be better spent on more damage to boost concentration DC's.
It's not going to work easily, I don't know if it's possible. Normally you could pre-cast the spell for a touch attack, but I"m not sure you can hold the charge on ranged touch attacks.
If you can't then you wouldn't be able to cast and ready the spell in the same turn, without using Quicken Spell metamagic.
Spellstrike can be used to deliver the spell no problem, its just having the spell ready and available to go with the shot.
Casting a spell is normally a standard action, readying an action is normally a standard action. Overwatch Style gives you two readied attacks you can make as a full-round action. Overwatch Tactician lets you ready two attacks as a standard. And Overwatch Vortex lets you ready 4 attacks as a full round action. None of which pairs well with casting a spell in the same turn. And then you have to deal with holding a charge. Even if you can hold a charge on ranged touch attacks, its only with ranged touch spells so you couldn't use anything that isn't a ranged touch.
Do let me clarify, you could ready an action to cast a spell in response to someone else casting. You could then deliver that spell with ranged spell strike, no problem. But you wouldn't be able to combine it with Overwatch Style at all (as far as I can tell).
Of course if you are the GM such matters like appropriate CR encounters and rules are optional.
Perfect. Wait can a ranged spellstrike be readied using Overwatch?Archery is especially effective with Overwatch Style for this sort of thing.I think the best way is a plain old archer build. Counterspelling requires resources and skill checks. Straight damage causes an inevitable and difficult concentration check. Readying vital strikes works excellently. While counterspelling can be done, readying a distracting a distracting fireball is better.
Also disruptive ain't too good. Requires you to stay near them and be vulnerable to their friends, and the feat would be better spent on more damage to boost concentration DC's.
It's not going to work easily, I don't know if it's possible. Normally you could pre-cast the spell for a touch attack, but I"m not sure you can hold the charge on ranged touch attacks.
If you can't then you wouldn't be able to cast and ready the spell in the same turn, without using Quicken Spell metamagic.
Normally you cannot hold a charge from a ranged touch attack spell. this particular tactic (readying and action to shoot the caster if he tries to cast) is very effective at shutting down enemy casters; the problem with it, is that you have to ready an action each turn, and therefore do not get a standard action to hurt the caster's minions.
Eldritch guardian fighters focused on dirty tricks. Although, since you are using multiple enemies with the same build, you can dump the eldritch guardian bit, I suppose. I mostly say eldritch guardian since it gives you a familiar that can share your build through shared feats- that is how PCs pull this off. GMs can just have multiple guys with the same build.
General point- you want to be able to use a ton of people with dirty tricks. With the right feats, you can cripple the other party. Greater dirty trick forces them to use standard actions to get rid of the condition (which can ruin everything but quickened spells... but cutting a caster down by 4 spell levels is still still good).
The important one is dirty trick master- this allows you to worsen a condition caused by another dirty trick attempt. Nasuaseated is the important one. Because it removes the ability to do standard actions- the kind needed to remove dirty tricks after greater dirty trick. So the other side is pretty much forced to just accept that they are crippled for a few turns. That is what keeps the caster down after you start beating him down.
Otherwise, the other thing I have to say: Coordinated charge teamwork feat. One guy charges, and then everyone else charges as an immediate action. Good for getting multiple guys doing damage on the caster quickly. Even better because the people using immediate actions move outside of their turn, and they will most likely start their next turn in full attack range. Either that, you the caster used a move action to move, and probably ate some AoOs.
So far it seems the best option is Overwatch Style. Then build the Tower Shield Specialist with Teamwork feats and Defence Bonuses. I can reposition as an immediate action to let the Artillery fire through. It's not directly interrupting an attack to move it back and forth, so I should be good. The only question now is what class to use in combinatnion with Arcane Archer to get the most damage out of Overwatch. Or atleast the most aura spells that I can attach to arrows.
Keep in mind you only have one immediate action a round, so you can't actually move it twice to make an opening and close it.
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I forget the specifics, but Ashiel once produced a very effective Barbarian build that focuses mostly on defenses against the typical "I win" buttons that casters throw at martials. Superstition, Spell Sunder, some rage power that lets you reflexively rage in case they scry-and-fry, keeping up Death Ward so you can wield a Life Drinker and carve away their caster level...
I'll have to fish it up later. Searching with the phone is a pain.
Keep in mind you only have one immediate action a round, so you can't actually move it twice to make an opening and close it.
I did not know that. So I will have to reposition it back using a standard action once it's my turn?
Also can I ready the changing of the Tower Shields position?
I would say it's still the EK archer build with 1 fighter 5 wiz 6EK and 2 arcane archer, the ability to shoot and anti magic field into someones chest cavity from range is basically the penultimate in caster shutdown capabilities.
So I am going the Arcane Archer Route. Using Arcanist Spell Specialist, this way I can boost the power of the Anti-Magic Field or at least the duration. Anyway I have a few questions about Imbue Arrow!
1) Can I use Quicken Spell to cast/fire and Imbued Arrow as a swift action (due to the firing of the arrow being part of casting)?
2) Does the spell effect stay on the arrow out of combat. So that I could permanency or reuse the said arrow?
3) If number two is true, can I ready these arrows for firing with Overwatch Style?
4) Can I enchant a slaying arrow and is it destroyed on hit like most ammunition? (See Arrow of Death for what a slaying arrow is!)
Now I have questions about Arcanist, mainly about the Spell Specialist archetype!
1) Can I use the Dismiss ability to stop Permanency effectively ending a supposedly permanent spell?
2) The signature spell uses Spontaneous Casting rules for Metamagic feats right?
3) Okay this one may sound stupid, but how big is a spellbook?
4) Is there a good way to get spellbooks so you can copy spells from them?
5) Can you disguise your spellbooks writing so others can't read it?
So I am going the Arcane Archer Route. Using Arcanist Spell Specialist, this way I can boost the power of the Anti-Magic Field or at least the duration. Anyway I have a few questions about Imbue Arrow!
1) Can I use Quicken Spell to cast/fire and Imbued Arrow as a swift action (due to the firing of the arrow being part of casting)?
2) Does the spell effect stay on the arrow out of combat. So that I could permanency or reuse the said arrow?
3) If number two is true, can I ready these arrows for firing with Overwatch Style?
4) Can I enchant a slaying arrow and is it destroyed on hit like most ammunition? (See Arrow of Death for what a slaying arrow is!)
Now I have questions about Arcanist, mainly about the Spell Specialist archetype!
1) Can I use the Dismiss ability to stop Permanency effectively ending a supposedly permanent spell?
2) The signature spell uses Spontaneous Casting rules for Metamagic feats right?
3) Okay this one may sound stupid, but how big is a spellbook?
4) Is there a good way to get spellbooks so you can copy spells from them?
5) Can you disguise your spellbooks writing so others can't read it?
For number 6, in the monster codex I believe ratfolk get special ink that requires scent to read.
So I am going the Arcane Archer Route. Using Arcanist Spell Specialist, this way I can boost the power of the Anti-Magic Field or at least the duration. Anyway I have a few questions about Imbue Arrow!
1) Can I use Quicken Spell to cast/fire and Imbued Arrow as a swift action (due to the firing of the arrow being part of casting)?
2) Does the spell effect stay on the arrow out of combat. So that I could permanency or reuse the said arrow?
3) If number two is true, can I ready these arrows for firing with Overwatch Style?
4) Can I enchant a slaying arrow and is it destroyed on hit like most ammunition? (See Arrow of Death for what a slaying arrow is!)
Now I have questions about Arcanist, mainly about the Spell Specialist archetype!
1) Can I use the Dismiss ability to stop Permanency effectively ending a supposedly permanent spell?
2) The signature spell uses Spontaneous Casting rules for Metamagic feats right?
3) Okay this one may sound stupid, but how big is a spellbook?
4) Is there a good way to get spellbooks so you can copy spells from them?
5) Can you disguise your spellbooks writing so others can't read it?
Arcane Archer:
1. My first instinct says no, but because it specifically says that you can fire the arrow as part of the casting, that tells me yes. It is pretty confusing, but the RAW seems to say that you can do it, but I don't know if that was intended.
2. No. There seems to be nothing that would suggest this. The spell doesn't become part of the arrow, it's just a means to travel farther. For the arrow to still have magical powers, it needs to already have those magical powers. Permanency is different from the first spell casted, so you would have to cast it afterwards (assuming that the original spell can be permanent). Even then, it wouldn't keep the enchantment on the arrow, it would just keep the spell there forever.
3. 2 isn't true, so this doesn't apply.
4. I would say that it works like other ammunition. If you miss, you have a 50% chance of being able to use it again. If you hit, there is a 100% chance that it is no longer usable.
Spell Specialist:
1. Permanent spells are not normally dismissable, but the dismiss ability allows you to dismiss spells that aren't normally dismissable. So, you can dismiss a permanent spell, but only if it's one of your signature spells.
2. Yes. Sorcerers get to spontaneously apply metamagic feats, and you get to cast the signature spell like a sorcerer.
3. A spellbook has 100 pages. Each spell takes up an amount of pages equal to its spell level (0 level spells take up one page). On the off chance that you're talking about weight instead of spell capacity, it weighs 3 lbs.
4. There are lots of ways to get spellbooks that you can copy spells from. If you are particularly renowned, you might be able to call in some favors to borrow someone else's spellbook for copying. You can probably buy "used" spellbooks, like the ones in Ultimate Magic. Then there are the less legal methods, like stealing them from wizards, or just killing the wizards and then taking the book. If you're good, that's probably not the option to take, but evil characters should have no problem, unless that goes against the code of conduct for LE people.
5. Get some invisible ink. If you have a buddy who's really good at alchemy, or you have no problem spending large amounts of money, then you can make it superior so that it activates with your fingerprints or blood or something specific to you.
Teisatsu Vigilante with composite Longbow, Sniper talent and Throat Jab?
Of course if you are the GM such matters like appropriate CR encounters and rules are optional.As long as you comply with the most important part of Rule Zero:
The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played.
The Spell Warrior Skald is a pretty good anti-mage. As a bonus, in the middle of the formation, he can grant some pretty nice bonuses to those surrounding him in the form of rage powers, like superstition
Paladin? Great saves, good hit points, swift-action self-healing.
Maybe as the base of some of the above options, like eldritch knight and arcane archer?