PSA: Card traits and their card text consequences


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion

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Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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Hi all!

A few weeks ago, one of my friends in our PACG group learned something that shocked him, and the fact that he didn't realize it sort of shocked me. While we were playing, he had a revelation that the "Veteran" trait is only on cards that have some sort of numerical increase on them based on the scenario's adventure deck number. This was something that I had realized back in the Rise of the Runelords days, but then I realized that not everyone might see patterns like that as easily.

With all that in mind, I figured I'd start a discussion of how traits are designed to affect the card text of cards they are added to. There are several traits that do this (which I will call "hard" traits from now on), so I'll list the ones I can think of here (Note that I'm not including traits like "Magic" which other cards or powers might refer to, but don't have a mechanical effect on the text of the card they're printed on or based on the basic rules of the game):

Basic - Cards with this trait can be chosen as a starting card when building a new character (for boons) and when you start adventure 4 of each of the adventure paths, you start to remove these from the game (for boons and banes).
Elite - Cards with this trait start to be removed in adventure 5 of each of the adventure paths.
Veteran - Cards with this trait have some sort of increase to numerical bonuses or check difficulties based on the scenario's adventure deck number, which can be multipled as well. (Example: Pig From Hell, which has 3 checks all increased by 3x the adventure deck number)
Incorporeal - Banes with this trait require the Magic trait be used on the check to defeat them, otherwise they are undefeated.
Giant - Banes with this trait deal damage to all characters at the location.
Undead - Banes with this trait are immune to the Mental and Poison traits.
Mythic - Banes with this trait grant you a mythic charge when you defeat them, and may add your number of mythic charges to some numeric part of their text or cause you to expend mythic charges, etc. Boons with this trait add your number of mythic charges to some numeric part of their text.
Abyssal - This trait is given to location cards, and banes at this location lose the Outsider trait.
Lycanthrope - The difficulty to defeat banes with this trait is increased based on the current top blessing of the blessings discard pile.

Now, one of the reasons that I made this thread was to ask the designers if there are other traits that cause specific card text to be included on the cards. For example, do all cards with the "Healing" trait have to have the words "shuffle into your deck" or "recharge cards from discard" or something like that? Or is 'Healing' a more abstract trait that can apply to anything that adds cards to your deck?
Here are a list of ones I thought of, but don't seem to be consistent. I'll refer to these as "soft" traits:
Liquid - Required to have at least one "Banish this card to" power (except for poisons).
Gambling - From what I can tell, cards with these traits have a difficulty to acquire or defeat which involves adding or subtracting a dice roll, OR let you reroll dice, OR makes you roll a die to keep it/not take damage/etc.
Healing - See above.
Attack - Generally, this trait seems to be given to cards other than weapons which have the "For your combat check" style powers where you set the base dice to be used on a combat check. This trait can also be added to spells that add dice to OTHER combat checks, such as Wall of Fire, etc.
Magic - Added to any card that represents a magical item or weapon, and to (all?) spells. Required to defeat Incorporeal banes.

EDIT: I've had someone suggest to me the idea of "Grouping" traits, which are traits that really just let you apply a set of powers to a whole set of cards by naming them. These may have some similarities in the way they're written, but don't seem to have the hard-and-fast rules of some of the others. Here are a few examples of those:
Swashbuckling - These are cards that represent weapons or objects that pirates might use. I haven't been able to figure out specifics other than that.
Aquatic - This trait is given to banes and spells that have to do with water or the ocean.
Finesse - These are Melee weapons that might lend to the idea of being more dextrous with your attacks, pinpointing an opponent's weak spot and stabbing them there. Mechanically, these can be used by several characters with their Dexterity as a base die instead of Strength like most other melee weapons.
Construct - Generally, immune to the Attack trait.
Outsider - This trait is lost at Abyssal locations.
Demon - Generally immune to several elemental types, and ALWAYS have the Outsider trait.

So, does anyone know of other traits that do things like this? Would the developers like to chime in and tell us of any other "hard" or "soft" traits that they use in the design of the game?


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Basics are removed starting at Adventure 3, and Elites starting at Adventure 5 -- you wrote 4 on each.

Missing the Lycanthrope trait which increases difficulty based on the top of the Blessings discard.

They still spell them out explicitly because they want to avoid the piles of keywords that other card games suffer from which increases the learning curve. There are still a couple of keywords ("invokes" comes to mind), but there'd be far more if it was based on the traits only. There's a post by Mike (I think) to this effect, but I don't have time to search for it right now.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

skizzerz wrote:

Basics are removed starting at Adventure 3, and Elites starting at Adventure 5 -- you wrote 4 on each.

Missing the Lycanthrope trait which increases difficulty based on the top of the Blessings discard.

They still spell them out explicitly because they want to avoid the piles of keywords that other card games suffer from which increases the learning curve. There are still a couple of keywords ("invokes" comes to mind), but there'd be far more if it was based on the traits only. There's a post by Mike (I think) to this effect, but I don't have time to search for it right now.

I thought it was 4 and 5? Fixed the second one though.

Lycanthrope is a good one, i've added that one.


What about weapon group traits?

Polearm - if a straight polearm, allow for a reroll if the combat check fails, but discards the polearm in doing so.
if a lance, allows for extra attack and not 2-handing when a Mount is revealed.

Mount - discards to move at end of turn in addition to discarding to explore.

Knife - often allows you to discard to enhance a combat check when you've used another weapon

Pick - includes Light Picks and Heavy Picks, which give an enhanced bonus on maximum die rolls (criticals)

Scythe - also gives an enhanced bonus on maximum die rolls

Bow - allows you to discard the card to enhance a check at another location, if proficient.

Servitor (WotR only) - is summoned by certain cards

Corrupted - can be redeemed by certain events, which allows you to ignore the trait.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Card Game, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

There can be exceptions, like the Worm Demon having the Undead trait but not actually being immune to Mental.

Paizo Employee Contributor

Swarms, which you need to beat by a certain number or they're shuffled back into the deck?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Card Game, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Not actually traits, but:
1) Sharks seem to be immune to evasion abilities.
2) Crabs seem to force a re-roll of a first successful check to defeat.
3) Bunyips seem to inexplicably be in each set.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Card Game, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

More on topic:
Mongrel - Cards with this trait have their Check to Acquire or Check to Defeat based on the difficulty of a random card drawn from the box.


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Why wouldn't you want Bunyips in every set? Also I don't recall any sets with Flumphs yet, I hope this is rectified soon.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Excellent, guys! Since I can't edit my first post, consider these added to the lists:

"Hard" traits:
Mongrel - These cards require you to draw a random card of a certain type, and their checks to acquire or defeat are based on difficulties listed on the drawn card.
Mount - Allows you to move when you normally wouldn't be able to.

"Soft" traits:
Polearm - This weapon can be discarded to reroll a failed combat check, or gives a bonus when using a Mount.
Knife - This weapon can be discarded to add to a combat check with another weapon.
Scythe, Light Pick and Heavy Pick - Max dice rolls are treated as a higher number (to represent critical hits).
Bow - If proficient with this weapon, you can discard it to add to a combat check at another location.
Corrupted - Confers some sort of penalty upon use unless you remove the Corrupted trait or fulfill a specific condition.

"Grouping" traits:
Servitor - Used in Wrath to allow for increasing difficulty of commonly summoned monsters.

Non-trait groupings:
Sharks - Can't be evaded
Crabs - Force a re-roll if you succeed at your check to defeat.
Swarms - Must be defeated by a significant number past their actual difficulty to be banished, otherwise they shuffle in.
Bunyips - Are awesome, 'nuff said.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Card Game, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

"Swarm" is actually a trait.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Excellent, thanks!


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Rogues usually get something (like increased difficulty) if you're alone at your location (not Caulky Tarroon).

Golems are immune to Attack and Mental.

Plants are immune to Attack and Mental.

Many Tasks remain faceup on locations if undefeated (Hurricane Winds being an exception).

Curses are displayed by a character if undefeated.

Cyclopes mess with the top of your deck.

Caches can usually be banished even if undefeated (Cryptic Runes being an exception).


Malcolm_Reynolds wrote:
Plants are immune to Attack and Mental.

Are all plants immune to Attack? I didn't think so.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

You should consider a google doc link, when doing a list like this, so you can update the list instead adding separate upgrade posts...
Nice list in anyway.


I'd add Alchemical to the grouping traits.

Most Magic armor lets you recharge it when you reset your hand, if proficient with the right type.

At risk of stating the obvious, Arcane spells can usually be recharged with an Arcane check, and are banished if you do not have the Arcane skill. Ditto for Divine.

A Shield generally cannot be played on the same check as a 2-handed weapon.

Animal allies usually (but not always) have a Wisdom/Survival check to acquire.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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Google Doc get!

Thanks guys for all your help, and keep them coming! This could actually become a useful resource!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

"Attack" is a bit more broad, as many evasion spells (Paralyze, Sleep, and Web for example) have the Attack trait...


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
elcoderdude wrote:
Malcolm_Reynolds wrote:
Plants are immune to Attack and Mental.
Are all plants immune to Attack? I didn't think so.

I was looking through SnS and every Plant I saw was. I hadn't thought of it before I looked.

Dragons use a "breath weapon" on all characters at the location before you act.

Sirens do Mental damage and discard allies from your deck if undefeated.

Elementals are immune to Mental and Poison.

Trolls are easier to defeat if using fire and undefeated unless you use Fire or Acid.

Gargoyles are tougher if you don't use magic.

Firearms can be buried for extra dice and if not Reliable might be shuffled back into your deck.

Reptiles are easier to defeat with Cold.

Oozes are immune to Mental and Poison. (might want to check RotR and WotR to be sure)

Adventure Card Game Designer

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<notices thread, gets out popcorn>

Fair warning: Our template list is 615 lines long. Today.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Mike Selinker wrote:

<notices thread, gets out popcorn>

Fair warning: Our template list is 615 lines long. Today.

Nice! I wanna know ALL OF THEM! :)

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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cartmanbeck wrote:
Mike Selinker wrote:

<notices thread, gets out popcorn>

Fair warning: Our template list is 615 lines long. Today.

Nice! I wanna know ALL OF THEM! :)

Complete list below:

All PACG Traits:
Note: This list is in kit form; you'll need to assemble it yourself. You will need multiple copies of many of the components below. Some components may not be used. No further instructions are available.

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ -ə

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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Hahaha you guys are MEAN! :-P


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Mike Selinker wrote:

<notices thread, gets out popcorn>

Fair warning: Our template list is 615 lines long. Today.

And that doesn't even tell us how wide it is!


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

How many do you have so far, cartmanbeck?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Here's the Google Doc

So far, 49 traits and 3 non-trait groupings.

Adventure Card Game Designer

I approve of the last one.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Looks like Rogues, Golems, Curses and Cyclopes didn't make it in yet.

Many things are listed both in the "Hard" and "soft" categories - is that intentional?

Basic removal still needs to be fixed.

Sirens aren't always the top of your deck. Seaweed Siren has you go through the whole thing.

Do the 615 traits include things like races, classes, gender, and Magic that don't necessarily cause cards to have similar powers?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Wow, I have no idea how they got duplicated like that. Fixed that.

Is Golem a trait? I thought they just had the Construct trait.

Curses... I'm holding out on that one, because I think the definition will be different when Mummy's Mask comes out.

How many Rogue banes are there? And my problem there is that Rogue is also a trait a character can have, so that complicates things.

Adventure Card Game Designer

Malcolm_Reynolds wrote:
Do the 615 traits include things like races, classes, gender, and Magic that don't necessarily cause cards to have similar powers?

No spoilers. Y'all just keep being you.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Card Game, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mike Selinker wrote:
Malcolm_Reynolds wrote:
Do the 615 traits include things like races, classes, gender, and Magic that don't necessarily cause cards to have similar powers?
No spoilers. Y'all just keep being you.

Traits are traits. Whether on locations, characters, boons, banes, support cards. Also, the 615 might include traits we have not seen from class decks coming up as well as MM set.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I just wonder if there is a "Cocktail" trait.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Anytime I run into Mike at a con, there is. :)

(( I'd happily include other Lone-Sharkers in that comment, but never seem to bump into them outside of the gaming area. ))

Adventure Card Game Designer

A number of us have the Cocktail trait.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
cartmanbeck wrote:

Wow, I have no idea how they got duplicated like that. Fixed that.

Is Golem a trait? I thought they just had the Construct trait.

Curses... I'm holding out on that one, because I think the definition will be different when Mummy's Mask comes out.

How many Rogue banes are there? And my problem there is that Rogue is also a trait a character can have, so that complicates things.

Golem is definitely a trait. The Coral Golem (SnS 4) and Cannon Golem (SnS 6) has Golem and Construct.

I only have SnS with me, but there are several Rogues:

The Skinsaw Man (RotR) is a Rogue.
Gortus Svard
Caulky Tarroon (though she has no alone power)
Paeta
Barnabas Harrigan
Kipper

Those are all Villains or Henchmen, but there are Rogue allies as well (Alise and Ederleigh, at least).

Cultists harm the blessings deck if undefeated.

Plants are missing from the doc.

Reliable is a trait on a few Firearms that keeps them from being shuffled.

Surgeons have a healing power.

Do you want to include traits that have no discernible function in your list?


Accessory allows you to use another item. I.E. jewelry, headgear, belts and such... because you don't have to hold them the power feels more like a selective passive

Although digging through my cards this doesn't always appear to be true.
It is more common with rings and belts, but not always true.
Headgear and armor accessories not so much.

Also, staffs seem to have "recharge" as where wands have "bury", this is also not always true but common.


Nice project!

Offhand weapons can be discarded to yield additional dice to combat checks with melee weapons without the 2-handed trait.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Updated with all those, thanks Malcom, Codcake and Doppelschwert!

I think any trait can be useful to include. I'll add some of the racial traits to the "Grouping" traits section today (Human, Elf, Goblin, etc)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

This is most helpfull to those people who make custom cards in drivethrough, so that card will be consistant with other similar cards.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Can I just say that I find it offensive that "Charm Person" only affects allies with the Human trait? Goblins are people, too...


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
James McKendrew wrote:
Can I just say that I find it offensive that "Charm Person" only affects allies with the Human trait? Goblins are people, too...

In the RPG, charm person only works against humanoids, although goblins are indeed humanoid, so it "should" work against them. The more powerful charm monster spell works against anything, though. I think this is a case of "allow for abstractions" -- adding a creature type trait (humanoid, monstrous humanoid, animal, magical beast, etc.) to everything in addition to its race trait (human, goblin, bunyip, etc.) for a very small amount of spells and powers seems like it would just add bloat when abstracting charm person to only work on humans would mostly work just as well.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Hannibal_pjv wrote:
This is most helpfull to those people who make custom cards in drivethrough, so that card will be consistant with other similar cards.

This is one of the major reasons I wanted to do this... I have designed a ton of cards on there, and it would be nice to make sure I'm adhering to trait specifics as much as possible. Plus, if I want a bane to do something specific but it's not based on a set character or image, I can pick a trait that will fit the mechanics and then go find the image that fits best, etc.


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Dunno if you have it on there yet, but Crossbows generally have "If proficient with weapons, discard this card to add X to to a combat check by a character at another location". That said, Crossbow doesn't appear to be a trait in and of itself.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
skizzerz wrote:
James McKendrew wrote:
Can I just say that I find it offensive that "Charm Person" only affects allies with the Human trait? Goblins are people, too...
In the RPG, charm person only works against humanoids, although goblins are indeed humanoid, so it "should" work against them. The more powerful charm monster spell works against anything, though. I think this is a case of "allow for abstractions" -- adding a creature type trait (humanoid, monstrous humanoid, animal, magical beast, etc.) to everything in addition to its race trait (human, goblin, bunyip, etc.) for a very small amount of spells and powers seems like it would just add bloat when abstracting charm person to only work on humans would mostly work just as well.

And if you think a card like Charm Person is going to get you Poog, you are sadly mistaken. Poog is too awesome for that nonsense, no matter what the RPG says.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

skizzerz wrote:
Dunno if you have it on there yet, but Crossbows generally have "If proficient with weapons, discard this card to add X to to a combat check by a character at another location". That said, Crossbow doesn't appear to be a trait in and of itself.

Most Bows do this, actually, so I have that power associated with the Bow trait at the moment.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
skizzerz wrote:
James McKendrew wrote:
Can I just say that I find it offensive that "Charm Person" only affects allies with the Human trait? Goblins are people, too...
In the RPG, charm person only works against humanoids, although goblins are indeed humanoid, so it "should" work against them. The more powerful charm monster spell works against anything, though. I think this is a case of "allow for abstractions" -- adding a creature type trait (humanoid, monstrous humanoid, animal, magical beast, etc.) to everything in addition to its race trait (human, goblin, bunyip, etc.) for a very small amount of spells and powers seems like it would just add bloat when abstracting charm person to only work on humans would mostly work just as well.

Charm Monster (in the card game) doesn't work on Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes, or the half-races, either. I picked goblin for humorous effect.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Here are traits you can add to the list. Most are found at least in SnS (the only set I have handy right now). I tried to not list ones I know you already have. Organization was mostly to help with me keeping track of what I'd looked through. Traits can be found on all manner of cards.

Male
Female

From RotR:
Barbarian
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Fighter
Paladin
Monk
Sorcerer
Wizard
Ranger

From SnS:
Oracle
Witch
Gunslinger
Swashbuckler
Magus
Warpriest
Alchemist

From WotR:
Cavalier
Arcanist
Shaman
Summoner
Bloodrager
Inquisitor
Hunter

Spy (Arueshalae)

(new classes in MM)

Goblin "Classes":
Raider
Cutpurse
Pyromaniac
Fortune-Teller
(plus others from Fight&Burn)

Races:
Succubus
(some new ones from recent class decks)

Ships:
Classes 0-7

Damage Traits:
Force
Mental
Fire
Cold
Poison
Electricity
Acid
Slashing
Piercing
Bludgeoning

Merfolk
Warrior
Ogre
Cannibal
Pirate
Skeleton
Hag
Ghoul
Aberration
Zombie
Smuggler
Ghast
Hobgoblin
Mummy
Mutant
Naga
Illusionist
Spymaster
Assassin
Harpy (requires a wisdom check to use weapons or spells or to avoid being moved to its location)
Evoker
Admiral
Charau-Ka
Lamia
Hellknight
Eidolon
Manticore
Treant
Scout (can do Ranged Combat Damage BYA)

Skirmish
Obstacle
Lock
Trap
Weather

Ranged
Melee
Club
Sword
Knife
Spear
Staff
Axe
Whip
Sling
Dart
Blowgun

Arcane
Divine

Light Armor
Heavy Armor

Object
Book
Tool
Instrument
Clothing (if on Magic Armor will not have a proficiency recharge power)
Staff

Sage
Captain
Tengu
Marid (Vailea)
Aristocrat
Shipbuilder
Spirit
Nereid
Automoton
Hireling

Gorum
Erastil
Torag
Calistria
Sarenrae
Shelyn
Irori
Iomedae
Pharasma
Desna
Lamashtu
Abadar
Norgorber
Gozreh
Nethys
Zarongel
Zogmugot
Terendelev
Sivanah
Milani
Cayden Cailean
Achaekek
Besmara
Hshurha
Kelizandri
Asmodeus
Geryon
(blessings from WotR)
Isis
Osiris
Ptah

Mendevian
Terminus

Non-trait:
Haunts are displayed in front of your character and increase the difficulty of your checks
Morningstars have the Piercing trait but may be treated as Bludgeoning instead
Adamantine ignores difficulty increases
Enervation reduces combat difficulty
Flaming can add the Fire trait
Shock can add the Electricity trait
Galvanic can add the Electricity trait
Keen increases the value of maxed dice
Bane weapons do extra damage against monsters with certain traits
(Reptiles and cold is a non-trait)

As your list grows, it may be helpful to sort it alphabetically.


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James McKendrew wrote:
Charm Monster (in the card game) doesn't work on Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes, or the half-races, either. I picked goblin for humorous effect.

Ehh, there's good reason for most of those, based in the RPG.

Elves: +2 racial save vs Enchantment spells, the charm fizzles.
Half-Elves: The same
Dwarves: The same, but vs all spells
Halflings: +1 save from Halfling Luck
Gnomes: Gnomes are monsters. You need Charm Monster, natch.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

From a not-thorough online perusal of RotR, WotR, and Class Decks:

Races:
Pitborn
Lizardfolk
Samsaran

Goblin Class:
Runt

Revenant
Necromancer
Wererat
Ogrekin
Nymph
Transmuter
Kobold
Yeti
Worm
Vampire
Ghost
Vermin
Army

Temptation

Sihedron
Special (Runeforged Weapons)

Pick
Chain
Scizore

Paint

Pixie
Angel
Oni
Enshrouded

Baphomet
Shax
Pulura
Abraxas

Satyr

Non-traits:
Belts and Headbands (Items) allow you to play another Item on the check.
Bolstering (armor) lets you draw cards after recharging to reduce damage.
Lances have the 2-Handed trait but lose it if you reveal a Mount.
Allying (Weapons) can add to another character's Combat check at your location.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I added all of those, though I'd like to order them and add more detail for each eventually.

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