Order of operations concerning Damage, Hardness, Resistance and Weaknesses

[Torbyne]

Hello all,

This question first came up when discussing an ongoing Iron Gods campaign with the GM and then has been bouncing around my head for a bit as i contemplate Starfinder and how the tech weapons from Pathfinder seem lackluster at the moment... can someone set me straight on this matter?

How does one determine damage dealt when the target has Temp HP from something such as a force field effect, hardness, energy resistance to the type used and weakness to the same?

Damage as normal to the temp HP, then subtract hardness, then resistance then multiple the remainder by 1.5?

Subtract hardness than resistance then deal damage to Temp HP?

Subtract hardness and resistance than multiply by 1.5 than deal damage to Temp HP?

Multiple by 1.5 then damage force field then subtract hardness and resistance?

multiply, subtract, subtract, Temp?

I thought it was subtract, subtract, Temp HP, multiply, damage actual HP but the GM isnt sure and it made me doubt because i couldnt find where in the rules i was getting that from.

This lead to a side conversation about how i felt the plasmathrower in the tech guide is actually a horrible weapon to use against robots as it has to deal with Hardness twice. which the GM hadnt thought of, so...

If an attack has two damage types, either physical/physical or energy 1/energy 2, will each damage type have to independently overcome hardness before being subject to additional resistances?

I am playing a Aerokineticist in the campaign and eventually will be using a physical, magical bashing/eletrical attack, so apply hardness twice, divide by half, subtract any resistances to one of those pools, then multiply the remainder of that pool by 1.5 and add back to the remaining half for total damage dealt?

Lastly, we will be having about half the party relying on tech weapons it seems, is there a way to boost their damage beyond magical enchantments? I saw a post from James Jacobs that they meant to include an exception to allow Deadly Aim with them and the GM is onboard with that but that still doesnt give a way to get around energy resistance and i am not sure they will really be worth it. For what its worth, one of the players is a Savage Technologist so i know they can get DEX to damage but that doesnt help the other players who are considering lasers.

Thanks all!

[James Risner]

Ask your GM.

But in general I do as follows:

Roll saves, figure up damage after saves and vulnerabilities.

Apply resistances / immunities to all applicable damages.

If multiple damage types remain (13 fire and 21 electricity) I'd just combine them.

Apply hardness once.

Apply remaining to temp hp first then any excess to real hp.

[necromental]

I go by 3.5 ruling which has the same order as James Risner's, except you apply vulnerability last (meaning vulnerability applies only to damage taken, not that which is already resisted).

[Torbyne]

James Risner wrote:

Ask your GM.

But in general I do as follows:

Roll saves, figure up damage after saves and vulnerabilities.

Apply resistances / immunities to all applicable damages.

If multiple damage types remain (13 fire and 21 electricity) I'd just combine them.

Apply hardness once.

Apply remaining to temp hp first then any excess to real hp.

That is an extremely favorable interpretation; when you say that is how you run it, is that from the rules or is this something not normally addressed by the rules that you've had to decide on?

[Ascalaphus]

I favour an outwards -> inwards order.

1) Check to see if you got hit at all / dove aside (Reflex saves).

2) Check to see if it got through your forcefield.

3) Check to see if it got through your exoskeleton/dermal plating/whatever that gives you hardness/resistance/DR.

4) Check to see if your delicate flesh or wiring has vulnerability to any damage that got through all your outer defences.

It's quite unfavourable to tech weapons, indeed. I don't really like their design. But this interpretation does make the most sense to me.

[James Risner]

Torbyne wrote:

James Risner wrote:

Ask your GM.

That is an extremely favorable interpretation; when you say that is how you run it, is that from the rules or is this something not normally addressed by the rules that you've had to decide on?

I interpreted that from the rules, but I said ask you GM because it isn't spelled out in the rules. So everyone will have their own interpretation, like you with one that apparently differs from mine.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

I think hardness should be applied before temporary HP or it really hurts the high CR robots who depend on their forcefield for a big chunk of their HP. I would fluff it as the forcefield reinforces the structure/body to fight off any damage as applied, rather than an external bubble that gets hit first. If you play it as an external bubble it wouldn't make any sense to apply armor or natural armor to your AC, either. You can hit the forcefield even if you can't hit the robot.

[Torbyne]

James Risner wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

James Risner wrote:

Ask your GM.

That is an extremely favorable interpretation; when you say that is how you run it, is that from the rules or is this something not normally addressed by the rules that you've had to decide on?

I interpreted that from the rules, but I said ask you GM because it isn't spelled out in the rules. So everyone will have their own interpretation, like you with one that apparently differs from mine.

Ah, thank you again. maybe i was remembering past edition but i thought it was spelled out somewhere and i just couldnt find it. i get Rule 0 and just count myself luck that the GM is willing to have these conversations. i'll find out tonight how he will rule it though it isnt likely to matter to me for anther 4 levels when i will have composite blasts to factor in against hardness. Not sure when we will be regularly using energy weapons but i expect them to start showing up around level 5.

[Ckorik]

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

I think hardness should be applied before temporary HP or it really hurts the high CR robots who depend on their forcefield for a big chunk of their HP. I would fluff it as the forcefield reinforces the structure/body to fight off any damage as applied, rather than an external bubble that gets hit first. If you play it as an external bubble it wouldn't make any sense to apply armor or natural armor to your AC, either. You can hit the forcefield even if you can't hit the robot.

Well if you assume it's a bubble then sure... but what if a forcefield is just a very thin 'skin' that lays over the top of a creature - and so is in all ways affected by AC/dex/movement/etc. Then consider that such a force field is reinforced by the structure under it thus making hardness useful :)

So yeah without a hard rule (which we don't have) it's how you justify it in your mind - and so expect table variation and ask your GM how they are going to handle it.

[Torbyne]

it is weird, force fields as described in the technology manual specifies that they create the field around the wearer and their fast healing only applies to the field, not the wearer. This makes it sound like a separate barrier but there are no rules for Temp HP that specifies that they act differently from regular HP in terms of other defenses... so the rules look like they give hardness, DR, SR, ER etc to temp HP which would include force fields. makes no internal sense to me though. in the end i guess i am glad that it isnt my call to make so i shouldnt worry too much.