More Tian Xia please!


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I bought all of Jade Regent last week. In print, even!


The point i wonder about a bit is, how does buying things outside of Paizo influence this equation?


I'm sure any sale of a product counts in terms of evaluating its popularity.

Dark Archive

What are your guys' favourite regions of Tian Xia anyway?

I think mine are Valashmai Jungle, Kwan Lai, Wanshou and the Kaoling/surrounding neighborhood situation.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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My favorite is almost certainly Shenmen - haunted by horrors and ruled by beautiful monsters.

Jinin (I like the story of how it came to be and its bucking of elven stereotypes)
Minata and the Valashmai (ruins of ancient empires are my thing)
Shanguang (I like the tie to the Shory and the way it influences the natives)
Tianjing (aasimar vs. qlippoth is awesome)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As my pitch should indicate, I'm all about the Lung Wa successor states- most notably Lingshen, Po Li, and Quain.

Also partial to Hongal and Xa Hoi.


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That´s a tough question, there´s really a lot i like.

-Wanshou
-Kaoling
-Nagajor
-Kwanlai
-Shenmen
-Jinin
-Chu Ye
All either non-human nations or ruled by non-humans.
Guess Xa-Hoi could be added there too.

Besides that, Valashmai, Wall of Heaven and Xidao, but also the forest of spirits are very interesting and make for different campaign backgrounds.

Otherwise Dtang-Ma is one of my favorites too.
A nation run by sorcerers has a very distinct and old D&D feel to me and is pretty attractive.

Liberty's Edge

For me I like Minkai and Lung Wa. Though reading about all them Kaiju in Valashmai Jungle kicks booty!


My top five, or ten, depending on how much time or energy I have.

1. Shen(sen)men, cursed land of spiders and ghosts, the title sells itself.
2. Nagajor, nagas need more exploration
3. Minata, my weakness for islands, pirates, and forbidden ruins has no limits.
4. Something involving Po Li, Dtang Ma, Bachuan, Hwanggot, and Xa Hoi, maybe a conspiracy filled shadow war.
5. The awakening of a Kaiju.


I like Valashmai, Chu Ye, Forest of Spirits, Dtang Ma, Goka, Jinin, Nagajor, Shenmen, Tianjing, Wall of Heaven Xa Hoi, and Zi Ha.

Liberty's Edge

I wish we got more time to explore the Forest of Spirits in book 4 of Jade Regent. Instead we got a nice taste then that overly long dungeon grind. Oh well.

Hongel is also pretty cool. I'd really dig seeing more of those guys.


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All for more Tian Xia. I miss Ameiko.


Several old AD&D modules are ripe for conversion to the Dragon Empires, which I'm doing for my Jade Regent campaign:

I1 Dwellers of the Forbidden City (Valashmai Jungle)
N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God (Nagajor?)
S2 White Plume Mountain
U1-3 Saltmarsh series (Kwanlai?)

And (Pathfinder module) Fangwood Keep (Kaoling or somewhere near)

Liberty's Edge

White Plume Mountain I remember as pretty generic fantasy with a touch of Michael Moorcock thrown in for good measure. What are you doing to customize it towards Tian Xia?


J-Bone wrote:
White Plume Mountain I remember as pretty generic fantasy with a touch of Michael Moorcock thrown in for good measure. What are you doing to customize it towards Tian Xia?

The most important thing is to replace the 3 magic items with asian flavoured magic items. Then replace some of the monsters with their more asian counterparts such as the vampire. Some of them don't even need replacing :)

Liberty's Edge

Sounds fun! That was my first module. I still got lots of love for it.


Mh i don´t know that yet...might be interesting!

Liberty's Edge

Hayato Ken wrote:
Mh i don´t know that yet...might be interesting!

Your too young to know the glory of White Plume Mountain! If you didn't die in those old S series 1E modules you weren't doing it right.

Now get off my lawn!

;-)


J-Bone wrote:


Now get off my lawn!

Not before the dogs made their business there, it´s all trampled and we got more Tian Xia stuff!


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I'd like to see more on the Lung Wa successor states, I guess Po Li would be my #1 of those with the Oracular Council...
(for some reason I imagine an Oracular cult would still function thruout Lung Wa area, if only strongest/actually ruling Po Li)
I like the opposing duo of Bachuan and Hwanggot, and believe Po Li even has a border region with "barbaric" Hwan jungle tribes.
Dtang Ma seems super awesome, and likewise with Draconic Xa Hoi (unclear if they speak Draconic, or what?)
Nagajor is interesting, seemingly a jumble of principalities with lose ties, mostly under Naga rule,
but those Naga have plenty of diversity in ideology and ruling style, and their Nagaji subjects themselves
have an interesting dynamic of seemingly strong Lawful tendency, even though their creator Deity is TN.
Also loving Hongal, Shaguang, and of course the city of Goka...

I do think that the next Tian Xia centric AP can do away with the tie-in to Avistan,
that made sense for Jade Regent, but the continent is now superficially known well enough to do away with that crutch, and just make it start in Tian Xia and end in Tian Xia. Now, many stories can fit in that scope... It doesn't have to be "Asia Theme AP", it can be "Dragon AP", it can be "Theocratic Cult AP", it can be "Friendly Greens vs Evil Greens vs Evil Humans" AP, etc. Given Jade Regent, I would want other regions of Tian Xia besides "pseudo Japan" to be front and center.

Dark Archive

My current top 5 areas of Tian Xia:

1. Shenmen! - It's my strong favorite out of the lands of Tian Xia. The whole Asian horror theme mixing-pot is an atmosphere that I like, and I'm a fan of the hidden city of the spider witches.

2. Goka - I see a lot of potential for an urban / crime-gang / martial arts campaign here. Being in a huge city that isn't Absalom (which seems to be being avoided due to PFS ties) and really taking advantage of the city's culture / environment / unique thematics would be cool.

3. Nagajor - I like the vastness of the place and how it's a large, long-lasting, functional non-human empire. There's a lot of space for interesting encounter sites in there, and I like the serpentine themes (and nagas in general). It'd be cool to do a non-human-focused campaign in a non-human nation too.

4. Minata - I see lot of potential for cool things out on the isles, and a campaign would be able to start in the more-normal northern reaches and get progressively weirder as it went south. It'd also give pirates a chance to re-appear without being in the Shackles, though I'm a bit more drawn to the mystic and secret side of the islands than the piracy side.

5. Minkai - The spot that's the most up-in-the-air. I like Japanese-themed adventures, and Minkai is the Japan-analogue. Tianjing with the Qlippoth, the Forest of Spirits with its Kami, and the Valashmai Jungle with the mythic threats and hidden ruins are also strong contenders. Kaoling probably previously held this spot, and I still like it, but after all the evil-empire stuff in Cheliax, the upcoming hobgoblin/goblin war campaign, and its entry in Distant Shores, I think I'd rather focus on other areas for now. 'Restore Lung Wa' could also be cool, as I'm into empire-building / restoration / expansion, but none of the three main warring successor states grab me right now as much as my list-picks.

If they count as a nation, swap the Darklands in for Minkai, since I'd like to see what's going on down there on the other side of the world.

-----------------------------------

I'll also n'th the request to stay in Tian Xia the entire AP (probably even in just one nation of Tian Xia, depending on AP themes). I have less interest in a Tian Xia AP that doesn't stay there the whole time, and I have more trouble selling a Tian Xia campaign to players if I can't sell it as an entirely Tian Xia campaign. Travel can be fun (Reign of Winter was awesome!), but I tend to prefer more of an area-focus.

Liberty's Edge

When season 3 of PFS happened, there were several thematic scenarios published that focused on Tian Xia with nods to Asian cinema. If you were to draw more inspiration from Asian or other cinema are there titles you might recommend as exemplars?

For me:

1. Godzilla
2. The Yakuza
3. Akira
4. Hara-Kiri: Death of a Samurai
5. Ashoka


In no particular order:

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon 1 and 2
The Twilight Samurai
The Seven Samurai
Ip Man
House of Flying Daggers
Hero
Memoirs of a Geisha
The Joy Luck Club
Raise the Red Lantern
The Road Home
Princess Mononoke
Afterlife
Tai-Pan (book)
Noble House (book)

I gave a list which includes many non action movies to give insight into Chinese and Japanese cultures so that a dm can add flavour to their asian campaign. I find that having realistic npcs and their reactions has really helped my (western) players acclimate to the different mindset required for roleplaying in the Dragon Empires.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
J-Bone wrote:
When season 3 of PFS happened, there were several thematic scenarios published that focused on Tian Xia with nods to Asian cinema. If you were to draw more inspiration from Asian or other cinema are there titles you might recommend as exemplars?

1. The Emperor and the Assassin

2. Seven Samurai (duh.)
3. Dreams More for mindset than actual setting data
4. Ran Kurosawa's Samurai King Lear. Accept no substitutes
5. Ju-On
6. Monoke Hime
7. Gojira NOT "Godzilla, King of the Monsters." It's a fine film, but it's not the version I would go to for this purpose.
8. Raise the Red Lantern
9. Daimajin
10. Red Cliff
11. Ong Bak.
12. Journey to the West. There are several films based on it, a TV series or two, there's a book, they're all worth a gander.
13. R-Point. A South Korean flick set during the Vietnam War, it's a killer ghost story.
14. Three Seasons
15. The Romance of the Three Kingdoms (Print)- Can be a bit of a slog (Luo Guanzhong is a tiresome Zhuge Liang fanboy) but worth the effort.

Note that I gave Kurosawa three spots here, but pretty much his entire body of work.... yeah. Watch more Kurosawa.

Also, my exposure has been to primarily Chinese and Japanese fiction,so looking for more material from other countries and cultures is highly advised.

Grand Lodge

I'm currently playing in the Jade Regent campaign and honestly Tian Xia has so much potential.

I would love to see a campaign resisting the armies of the hobgoblins, or even a campaign to Liberate Wanshou from the Elder Kraken ruler. Or even liberate Chu Ye from it's Void Lord Oni.

That said, I love the Mythic Campaigns, having played Wrath of the Righteous I think it's a lot of fun. I would love to see something happen with either the valashmai jungle or the shory city stranded in the air above Tian Xia.


Whoops, also forgot to mention Zi Ha which of course is awesome with the immortal Samsarans, as well as La and other humans, giants, probably oni, yeti, etc.

And it seems like it would be cool to get a story involving not just Lung Wa history, but the elder Shu and Yixing Empires... In some ways like the ancient Azlant, Thassilon, Jistka etc. of the Inner Sea.


Don't forget the Elemental Hegemony of the Valashmai! ^_^

Dark Archive

I thought i give you guys some quick infos:

Jade Regent
AP #49 (1) - sold out.
AP #50 (2) - sold out.
AP #51 (3) - 500-999 in stock.
AP #52 (4) - sold out.
AP #53 (5) - 250-499 in stock.
AP #54 (6) - 1-24 in stock.

Jade Regent is the 5th best selling AP with between 751 & 1522 issues left in the Paizo warehouse.

If you want more Tian Xia, the best way is to buy AP #54 for $19.99.
When this issue sells out, it will be the 4th AP to sell out of four parts (after Kingmaker, RotR & Carrion Crown.

Dark Archive

-Dragon Empires Primer: 250-499 issues left.
-The Ruby Phoenix Tournament: 500-999 left.
-Jade Regent Poster Map Folio: 500-999 left.
-Dragon Empires Gazetteer: 1000+ left.
-Jade Regent Item Cards: 1000+ left.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Marco Massoudi wrote:
-Dragon Empires Gazetteer: 1000+ left.

Ouch.

No wonder a hardcover keeps getting deemed a remote possibility at best...


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Cole Deschain wrote:
Marco Massoudi wrote:
-Dragon Empires Gazetteer: 1000+ left.

Ouch.

No wonder a hardcover keeps getting deemed a remote possibility at best...

That´s easy to say, but when you look at the circumstances you will get a different picture.

Dragon Empires Gazetteer is a Pathfinder Campaign Setting, the GM line, so primarily GMs will buy that. The only other incentive, the different Tian Xia races, was taken away.
First they weren´t allowed in PFS (what is a big motor for people to buy stuff), then they were reprinted in another book which offers more to people only looking for the races, especially when playing PFS.

And for GMs, this book only offers an overview of the continent and different states. It´s the only book so far.
You don´t need it for Jade Regent nor for the Ruby Phoenix Tournament.
So you either run those adventures and don´t need it, or you have to homebrew something, where it doesn´t provide that much information if you ask me.
It would be far more interesting if there was more stuff to follow up.
The Inner Sea has a lot more to offer, where single books like that become worth a lot more to GMs.

From that point of view, i´m not surprised this book doesn´t sell as well. Dragon Empires Primer obviously sold a lot better. So that might not be a problem of the region, but of the book and format.
Therefore concluding because this book isn´t sold out, people aren´t interested in those regions is a mistake.

Would be interesting to compare that to a similar book about other regions, but there´s only one other region so far when i remember right.
Garund has a slightly different format and the Inner Sea books are all bigger and contain a lot more and different information i think.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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There's another factor to consider when looking at their stock on hand. Let's say they print a Dragon Empires hardcover that drastically expands upon the content in that book. Those Gazetteers become even less likely to sell. With that much stock on hand, it's no surprise they don't want to render it obsolete. (Even the Primer, while more popular, isn't anywhere close to selling out.) That's product that they paid for, and still need a return on.

So I guess that's an important question. What do you expect Paizo to do with the physical product that they would no longer have a realistic hope of selling? Would you pay $80 or more per copy for a Dragon Empires hardcover, to ameliorate those losses? Would enough of the market do so to make such a book worthwhile?

These aren't rhetorical questions. They're real questions. And Paizo needs answers before there's any hope of this happening.


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I´m afraid i have to say i don´t like your post there.
It puts people in a real weird position and i´m very unsure what kind of answers you expect there.
Like saying, hey if you want new products, buy all the old ones first, not matter if you can actually use them or not. Everything we do has to be lined in gold or we don´t do anything.
Also come up with a business plan for a company where you won´t earn anything, because else, no products.
Sure it´s a real problem, but there´s people who get paid to solve it.
Making Tian Xia the victim of a past and perhaps not that fortunate decision is stupid at best.
When someone comes up with that stuff, they can actually make their own company and products. There´s a ton of difficult implications coming up there i´m not really comfortable discussing here for several reasons. The lack of adequate information among them and i think this thread can do very well without second hand guessed business discussions without reliable data. Please avoid that.

Dragon Empires Gazetteer stands out in the Campaign Setting line.
It´s literaly like the Inner Sea world guide, only it´s not a hardcover, has half the size and info and lacks all the follow up.
The only books which are also comparable are the Sargava book and Distant Worlds, but both are also different enough.
So, it´s an experiment in more than one way. Not all experiments succeed, but the right conclusions have to be drawn.
Is that book not as interesting because of it´s format or the content?
That´s the question.

If you ask me, more focus on single regions is better.
I still like both Dragon Empires books and bought them a long time ago.

Dark Archive

The most a Tian Xia Fan can expect at the moment is a module set in this region.
The fact that modules are now only being done by RPG Superstars winners (which is a mistake imo), which have to use stuff from that contest, where categories are in part chosen by Paizo, make that very unlikely.
Personally i don't think we will see any new stuff from that continent in the near future.
That being said, Jade Regent is selling good and we could get a part of an AP set there in the future.

The upcoming "Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of the Beast" seems to have some Tian Xia content, at least creature-wise.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Hayato Ken wrote:

I´m afraid i have to say i don´t like your post there.

It puts people in a real weird position and i´m very unsure what kind of answers you expect there.
Like saying, hey if you want new products, buy all the old ones first, not matter if you can actually use them or not. Everything we do has to be lined in gold or we don´t do anything.
Also come up with a business plan for a company where you won´t earn anything, because else, no products.
Sure it´s a real problem, but there´s people who get paid to solve it.
Making Tian Xia the victim of a past and perhaps not that fortunate decision is stupid at best.
When someone comes up with that stuff, they can actually make their own company and products. There´s a ton of difficult implications coming up there i´m not really comfortable discussing here for several reasons. The lack of adequate information among them and i think this thread can do very well without second hand guessed business discussions without reliable data. Please avoid that.

Dragon Empires Gazetteer stands out in the Campaign Setting line.
It´s literaly like the Inner Sea world guide, only it´s not a hardcover, has half the size and info and lacks all the follow up.
The only books which are also comparable are the Sargava book and Distant Worlds, but both are also different enough.
So, it´s an experiment in more than one way. Not all experiments succeed, but the right conclusions have to be drawn.
Is that book not as interesting because of it´s format or the content?
That´s the question.

If you ask me, more focus on single regions is better.
I still like both Dragon Empires books and bought them a long time ago.

Dude, this entire thread is about you purely speculating that Tian Xia is popular and that a new AP/CS is going to sell like crazy. If there is anybody second guessing business discussion without reliable data, it's you.

And unless you just got hired as a Community Manager by Paizo, I doubt you're in position to lecture people on what they can post, as long as these posts don't break the rules, which is hardly the case with Kali's post.

Dark Archive

-AP #51: JR part 3: $10/$7.5 nonmint

-AP #53: JR part 5: $10

-AP #54: JR part 6: $19.99

-Dragon Empires Primer: $10.99/$8.24 nonmint.

-Ruby Phoenix Tournament: $5/$3.75 nm

-Jade Regent Poster map folio: $3

-Jade Regent Cards: $4

-Dragon Empire Gazetteer: $19.99/$14.99 nonmint

With the code "summer16" it's even 10% less.

I already have all of these, but i think i'll buy the module (i tend to write inside them) and poster map folio (to hang on my wall) again.


I´m merely expressing my insecurity on what Kali expects from such a post or such questions, because i don´t have answers to them.
Like in, i personaly can´t buy 1000+ books nor do i know what to do with them.
Kali posts a lot of good stuff i appreciate normaly.

And yes i started this thread, but not to turn it into a business discussion.


I'm not sure you'd need a hardcover.

Seems like a softcover of whatever region or country it's held in would be sufficient, of course whether it sells or collects dust is another matter entirely.

It is absolutely a business decision, artists, writers, and editors don't work for free.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hayato Ken wrote:
And yes i started this thread, but not to turn it into a business discussion.

But awesome as they are, the folks at Paizo are in a business, and that means they have to keep at least a passing familiarity with their bottom line.

Just about everybody here would jump all over more Tian Xia stuff- but the company has to look at the cold hard facts of product on hand.

The company got savagely burned on The Art of Dragon Magazine- such a brutal shellacking, in fact, that we'll probably never see another art book from Paizo again. It also means that it takes more than messageboard voices to convince them a product will sell.

I loved the Dragon Empires Gazetteer. My copy's getting dog-eared enough I might actually take part of the backlog off of their hands. But that (and my opinion) are just a drop in the bucket.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Cole Deschain wrote:
The company got savagely burned on The Art of Dragon Magazine- such a brutal shellacking, in fact, that we'll probably never see another art book from Paizo again.

We did actually get another art book after the Dragon art book: Visions of WAR, but I think it didn't sell well either.


Hayato Ken wrote:

Dragon Empires Gazetteer stands out in the Campaign Setting line.

It´s literaly like the Inner Sea world guide, only it´s not a hardcover, has half the size and info and lacks all the follow up.
The only books which are also comparable are the Sargava book and Distant Worlds, but both are also different enough.
So, it´s an experiment in more than one way. Not all experiments succeed, but the right conclusions have to be drawn.
Is that book not as interesting because of it´s format or the content?

FWIW, the way they've released Tian Xia material so far is very close to the genesis of the Inner Sea World Guide. That began life as some back matter in an AP, then was released as a sixty four page book (the Gazetteer), was then expanded to the Campaign Setting before being updated and built on again in the current incarnation.

I don't think it's as simple as the format-content dichotomy you present - I think it's all about demand, since if anything I think Paizo are even better now than they used to be at writing campaign settings.

There's lots of issues that would explain discrepancies beyond content and format (both of which are pretty similar). For example, I hink simply being first helped the Gazetteer (it didn't have competition the way Dragon Empires/etcetera did)

Dark Archive

THE GOOD NEWS:

SHENMEN is getting a write-up in october 26th's "Horror Realms" Campaign Setting.

I also remember a mention of the Hobgoblins in the "Ironfang Invasion" having a connection to Kaoling, but i'm not 100% sure.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Beasts delves into individual details about seven races: the feline catfolk, froglike grippli, fox-tailed trickster kitsune, snakelike nagaji, cunning ratfolk, raven-headed tengu, and monkeylike vanara. Information for each race includes an examination of their place in the world of Golarion, expansions of their racial options, and new player options that can be used by characters of many races such as the luck magic created by catfolk, and the ki powers perfected by vanaras.

Dark Archive

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The only "Pathfinder Tales" novel to take place in Tian Xia, "Master of Devils" sold out!


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I think a good way to build some support for Tian Xia would be via the modules line. Specifically a first level adventure (both because they tend to sell better and because it helps new converts to Tian Xia get a campaign started).

Dark Archive

Hmmmmmmmm, YES!!!!!


The modules thing has been said before and it´s indeed a very good idea, especially low level modules.

I would definately buy another Tian Xia product, can´t say about other people though.

Ironfang Invasion having ties to Kaoling is a rumor i think.
Even if, it wouldn´t be any good. Probably it would serve as an excuse not to do something, because hey, TianXia was then remotely mentioned in another product...again...what might be enough for the next decade^^

And i´m just not a fan of cramming too much stuff into one book where single things then don´t get much attention, but more a mention.
As far as i´m aware i´m not the only person there.
Player oriented books still sell good because people are thirsty for stuff, but other might not sell as well.

Liberty's Edge

Yeah the low level module is something I've been clamoring for. The idea of having it set in Tian Xia would allow the abundance Asian themed PFS characters to have a starting place. But also it could be used to explore some nice nooks and corners of the world.


J-Bone wrote:
Yeah the low level module is something I've been clamoring for. The idea of having it set in Tian Xia would allow the abundance Asian themed PFS characters to have a starting place. But also it could be used to explore some nice nooks and corners of the world.

If it sold okay they could do another level 5/6 module in a neighbouring nation the next year. Not a strict sequel but able to be used as such if required.

It seems to me Paizo got a little burned when they tried to expand into a new continent last time via one big leap. Lately (drifting off the edge of avistan into Casmaron) they seem to be approaching expansion of the world beyond the inner sea in a more incrementalist way.


I would like to see more information about the Ninja class Yokai Hunter and Geisha classes as there is little info or weapons and gear for these jobs pertaining to to them. Also more information about the Ninja Clans ans the Deities worshiped here. AS I understand it there wasn't a lot of info regarding them in Jade Regent.

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