Can I qualify for Dimensional Agility this way?


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I was just looking at a new guide to making a martial caster class.

The build is based on using the Martial Flexibility class feature

Martial Flexibility (Ex):

A brawler can take a move action to gain the benefit of a combat feat she doesn't possess. This effect lasts for 1 minute. The brawler must meet all the feat's prerequisites. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 her brawler level (minimum 1).

The brawler can use this ability again before the duration expires in order to replace the previous combat feat with another choice.

If a combat feat has a daily use limitation (such as Stunning Fist), any uses of that combat feat while using this ability count toward that feat's daily limit.


to take the Advanced Weapon Training feat with the Item Mastery option, which in turn allows you to use Item Mastery feats. (Martial Flexibility > Advanced Weapon Training(Item Mastery) > Item Mastery Feats)

So now my question is about 1 Item Mastery feat in particular, called Teleportation Mastery

Teleportation Mastery(Item Mastery):
You can coax teleportation from conjuration magic items.

Prerequisite(s): Use Magic Device 4 ranks, base Fortitude save bonus +6.

Benefit(s): You can cause an item that has a conjuration spell of 3rd level or higher in its construction requirements to cast dimension door.

You can use this ability once per day, plus an additional time per day at base Fortitude save bonus +9 and +12.

Question: Does this chain of abilities and bonus feats get you to the point that you satisfy the following?

Dimensional Agility wrote:
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.


Yes, if it weren't for the fact that you cannot use Martial Flexibility feats to qualify for other feats. So you could only take Dimensional Agility as a MF feat.


is there an FAQ about martial flexibility? the text itself doesn't say you cant use it to qualify for other feats


There isn't because it isn't needed. You can't use MF feats to qualify for actual feats. You can use MF to qualify for feats that you will gain with MF.


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Secret Wizard wrote:
There isn't because it isn't needed. You can't use MF feats to qualify for actual feats. You can use MF to qualify for feats that you will gain with MF.

But it is needed. If a class feature gives me the ability to cast Dimension Door (which this one is doing) then it should also satisfy the prerequisite that says you need "the ability to cast Dimension Door". That's the whole reason I'm here, to ask if there are any explicit statements in the rules or FAQ's that say Martial Flexibility cannot be used in this way. If there aren't any then it seems to be acting in exactly the same way that the Spells class ability acts.


I don't think this qualifies, even if you actually take the Item Mastery feat. It says it causes the item to cast Dimension Door. You still don't have the ability to cast Dimension Door any more than if you're wearing a Cape of the Mountebank


That's a pretty good point.


Yeah, you're not casting the spell the item is. So you can't use it to qualify.


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You cast the spell as a spell like ability, per the feat.

You qualify for dimension agility etc. by that virtue.


master_marshmallow wrote:

You cast the spell as a spell like ability, per the feat.

You qualify for dimension agility etc. by that virtue.

This is not true. Here is the feat.

The important line is "You can cause an item that has a conjuration spell of 3rd level or higher in its construction requirements to cast dimension door."

The item is using the spell-like ability.


Easy house rule for home games.


Azten wrote:
The item is using the spell-like ability.

By that logic it would be the item, and not the owner, that decides where you'd end up.

The text "cause an item... to cast Dimension Door" is fluff, not crunch. Any other interpretation results in ridiculousness.


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No, going to strongly disagree. You aren't casting the spell at all. The item is casting it, you just happen to be able to coax magical items to cast spells that they weren't designed to. Without the appropriate magical item you possess no ability to cast the spell.

@VRMH, just like an item that casts a spell when activated you as the activator make the decision about how the spell works. But that doesn't make you the caster. Unless every fighter with boots of teleportation or cape of the mountebank is now a spell caster?


Wait, if the item, not you, is casting it then you don't lose your actions (other than standard for activating the item) like a normal casting of Dimension Door?


Starbuck_II wrote:
Wait, if the item, not you, is casting it then you don't lose your actions (other than standard for activating the item) like a normal casting of Dimension Door?

Unsure (but probably). Whatever the answer is it would be the same as using a Cape of the Mountebank.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Claxon wrote:
Yeah, you're not casting the spell the item is. So you can't use it to qualify.

Even if it did let you cast (it doesn't), it would only work when you have chosen that feat with a move action.

Functionally this works like a wand of DD. You pick wher, make all the choices, lose your actions, but you don't count as casting a spell.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Starbuck_II wrote:
Wait, if the item, not you, is casting it then you don't lose your actions (other than standard for activating the item) like a normal casting of Dimension Door?

"After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn."

It is the use of dimension door, not that act of casting it that takes away your actions.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
It is the use of dimension door, not that act of casting it that takes away your actions.

But by the literal wording, you are not casting it, the item is. Thus it's the item that loses its remaining actions and not you. It's clearly a stupid argument, but it does expose a very key flaw to the notion that it's the item's ability and not your ability because the game rules make no such distinction.

It may be very circuitous, but I think the only consistent ruling is to say that yes you do have the dimension door as an SLA for all intents and purposes. The feat grants the effect to an item, which in turn grants it to you, but at the end of this chain it is your character who casts the dimension door spell. Permanent magic items like headbands and belts can be used to meet prerequisites, and I don't think there's any actual distinction here just because it's a SLA instead of an attribute boost.


Dasrak wrote:
Quote:
It is the use of dimension door, not that act of casting it that takes away your actions.

But by the literal wording, you are not casting it, the item is. Thus it's the item that loses its remaining actions and not you. It's clearly a stupid argument, but it does expose a very key flaw to the notion that it's the item's ability and not your ability because the game rules make no such distinction.

It may be very circuitous, but I think the only consistent ruling is to say that yes you do have the dimension door as an SLA for all intents and purposes. The feat grants the effect to an item, which in turn grants it to you, but at the end of this chain it is your character who casts the dimension door spell. Permanent magic items like headbands and belts can be used to meet prerequisites, and I don't think there's any actual distinction here just because it's a SLA instead of an attribute boost.

Exactly, if you aren't casting, the item is then you shouldn't lose remaining actions.

If, however, it is treated as you casting, then you are casting it and losing remaining actions, but it opens preqs that require casting it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Dasrak wrote:
Quote:
It is the use of dimension door, not that act of casting it that takes away your actions.
But by the literal wording, you are not casting it, the item is.

Please reread what I wrote.

Who or what is casting the dimension door spell is irrelevant to whether you lose any remaining actions on the turn. For example, if I summon some monsters at the beginning of my turn (having started the spell the previous round), and then use dimension door to transport myself and the summoned creatures across the battlefield as my standard action, not only do I lose my move action, but the summoned creatures also lose their actions. It is the use, not the casting that removes any remaining actions in the turn.

As for the argument that an item granting a spell or SLA satisfies prerequisites for 'able to cast a spell' I think that has been pretty well dismissed above.


Dave Justus wrote:
Dasrak wrote:
Quote:
It is the use of dimension door, not that act of casting it that takes away your actions.
But by the literal wording, you are not casting it, the item is.

Please reread what I wrote.

Who or what is casting the dimension door spell is irrelevant to whether you lose any remaining actions on the turn. For example, if I summon some monsters at the beginning of my turn (having started the spell the previous round), and then use dimension door to transport myself and the summoned creatures across the battlefield as my standard action, not only do I lose my move action, but the summoned creatures also lose their actions. It is the use, not the casting that removes any remaining actions in the turn.

As for the argument that an item granting a spell or SLA satisfies prerequisites for 'able to cast a spell' I think that has been pretty well dismissed above.

But the summons aren't using the spell in your example, why would you fool yourself that they are losing any actions?

The spell says after using the spell, the summons didn't use it, you did.


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Dave Justus wrote:
Dasrak wrote:
Quote:
It is the use of dimension door, not that act of casting it that takes away your actions.
But by the literal wording, you are not casting it, the item is.

Please reread what I wrote.

Who or what is casting the dimension door spell is irrelevant to whether you lose any remaining actions on the turn. For example, if I summon some monsters at the beginning of my turn (having started the spell the previous round), and then use dimension door to transport myself and the summoned creatures across the battlefield as my standard action, not only do I lose my move action, but the summoned creatures also lose their actions. It is the use, not the casting that removes any remaining actions in the turn.
...
[emphasis added]

FAQ wrote:

Dimension Door: If the caster brings other creatures with him when he casts the spell, are the passengers unable to take any other actions until their next turn, or is that just for the caster?

That restriction only applies to the caster.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

You think that having a cape of the mountebank give you access to Dimensional agility?
If so, this feat will give you access to it, if not it don't.

The feat say: "Benefit(s): You can cause an item that has a conjuration spell of 3rd level or higher in its construction requirements to cast dimension door.
You can use this ability once per day, plus an additional time per day at base Fortitude save bonus +9 and +12."

You don't get a SLA, you get an item that cast that spell.

D20PRD wrote:


Dimensional Agility

Teleportation does not faze you.

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.

Benefit: After using abundant step or casting dimension door, you can take any actions you still have remaining on your turn. You also gain a +4 bonus on Concentration checks when casting teleportation spells.

AFAIK the prerequisite "Ability to ... cast dimension door" require you to have Dimension Door on your spellcasting list and the level to cast it or having it as a SLA. Owning a item that cast it isn't enough.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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Dasrak wrote:
It may be very circuitous, but I think the only consistent ruling is to say that yes you do have the dimension door as an SLA for all intents and purposes.

Welcome to Table Variance.

Because I'd flat say no to you and I'd say my RAW.


Again my point stands due to the FAQ, thanks Gisher, if the item casts the spell you don't lose your action unless it would count as you casting it, then this qualifies you for OP's feat choice mentioned in 1st post.

But if the item, not you is casting, the FAQ says you don't lose it.


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Let's take this a step further:

If I'm playing a random character with some ranks in UMD and some scrolls of Dimension Door, does my character count as having the ability to cast Dimension Door? Can I use this to qualify for the mentioned feat?

Or if you take issue with a scroll's transient nature, how about a staff with the ability to cast dimension door?

Now, most people accept that some magic items can be used to qualify for feats. I would say the commonly agreed upon ones provide a benefit of a continuous nature.

My initial thought is to draw the line at items which require a "magic item activation" action to use. With this division, effects from activated magic items don't qualify as being possessed by the user. But these effects are still "cast" by the user for the purposes of things like DDoor's turn ending effect.

In any case, there's inevitably going to be a large amount of table variation here, so ymmv. I'd likely need to look at such situations on a case by case basis before handing down a judgement, if they happened to be used in play.


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Item Mastery in general is a bit of a hybrid between using an item and casting a spell.

Item Mastery Feats wrote:
Creating these effects requires you to assault the existing magic of the item through your force of will and channel the item's inherent magic through your own body; this act is thus governed by the user's fortitude. All effects created by item mastery feats act as spell-like abilities and use your base attack bonus as the caster level. Any spell-like ability's save DC is equal to 10 + the spell level + your Constitution modifier. If a spell-like ability calls for a calculation using your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma bonus or modifier, use your Constitution bonus or modifier instead.

So unlike normally activating an item, the caster level and spell-like ability DC for Item Mastery feats depend on the 'caster.'

As an example of the difference, let's take a level 12 Fighter (+6 Con mod) using a (standard) Wand of Suggestion vs. using Compulsion Mastery:

  • Wand DC = 14 (10 + spell level + min int bonus = 10 + 3 + 1).
  • Mastery DC = 19 (10 + spell level + con mod)
or the same thing for Dispel Magic for a targeted Dispel:
  • Wand DC = 15 (10 + CL = 10 + 5).
  • Mastery DC = 22 (10 + CL[BAB])
The character is not just activating a magic item. He's taking the energy stored there, and using his body to make it do something it wasn't originally designed to. (For example, using the energy from his Ring of Sustenance [Create Food and Water] or Beneficial Bandolier [Secret Chest] to 'cast' Dimension Door).

Does it qualify for Dimensional Agility if you have Teleportation Mastery? Probably not by the strictest reading. Anywhere but PFS would I let if fly? Yes.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
MeanMutton wrote:
I've seen quite a few people mention spell-like abilities being used for feat qualifications - did they get rid of that FAQ that banned it? Or did that FAQ only apply to prestige classes and not feats?

The FAQ has been changed a few times. Currently it works like this: if the prerequisites are "able to cast 4th level spells" then having a Dimension Door SLA would not let you qualify, but if the prerequisites are "able to cast Dimension Door" then having Dimension Door as a SLA would qualify. Honestly, this is a sensible ruling... now if only we could get unchained versions of Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge to fix their draconian prerequisites and lack of class features.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Gisher wrote:
FAQ wrote:

Dimension Door: If the caster brings other creatures with him when he casts the spell, are the passengers unable to take any other actions until their next turn, or is that just for the caster?

That restriction only applies to the caster.

Interesting. I hadn't seen that FAQ.

Of course it doesn't usually matter anyway, as generally if I am casting a spell it isn't anyone else's turn.


Ridiculon wrote:

I was just looking at a new guide to making a martial caster class.

The build is based on using the Martial Flexibility class feature** spoiler omitted **
to take the Advanced Weapon Training feat with the Item Mastery option, which in turn allows you to use Item Mastery feats. (Martial Flexibility > Advanced Weapon Training(Item Mastery) > Item Mastery Feats)

So now my question is about 1 Item Mastery feat in particular, called Teleportation Mastery** spoiler omitted **

Question: Does this chain of abilities and bonus feats get you to the point that you satisfy the following?

Dimensional Agility wrote:
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.

Since when are item mastery feats, weapon mastery feats?

Since advanced weapon training feat gives you access to
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/weapon-mastery-feats

and Teleporation Mastery is under

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-mastery-feats

Unless you are talking about The actual FIGHTER Class feature for advance weapon training, which has Item Mastery as an option.
The advance weapon training feat does not seem to give you access to the class feature, but instead to actual weapon master feats.


Fernn wrote:
Since when are item mastery feats, weapon mastery feats?

They aren't and no one claimed they were? 'Item Mastery' is an advanced weapon training option:

Quote:
Item Mastery: The fighter gains an item mastery feat as a bonus feat, which functions with any magic weapon he wields, even if the magic weapon does not meet the feat's normal requirements. He must meet all of the feat's prerequisites.

So I'm not sure what point you're making here.

Quote:


Unless you are talking about The actual FIGHTER Class feature for advance weapon training, which has Item Mastery as an option.
The advance weapon training feat does not seem to give you access to the class feature, but instead to actual weapon master feats.

Erm. The feat 'Advanced Weapon Training' just says you pick an AWT option and gain the benefits of it. Item Mastery is an AWT option. So... that's what the OP is taking with the feat.

Quote:
Benefit(s): Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you have already selected with the weapon training class feature.


Fernn wrote:

Since when are item mastery feats, weapon mastery feats?

Since advanced weapon training feat gives you access to
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/weapon-mastery-feats

and Teleporation Mastery is under

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-mastery-feats

Unless you are talking about The actual FIGHTER Class feature for advance weapon training, which has Item Mastery as an option.
The advance weapon training feat does not seem to give you access to the class feature, but instead to actual weapon master feats.

Magic Tactics Toolbox added Item Mastery and Warrior Spirit (Su) under Advanced Weapon Training.


Cheburn wrote:
Fernn wrote:

Since when are item mastery feats, weapon mastery feats?

Since advanced weapon training feat gives you access to
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/weapon-mastery-feats

and Teleporation Mastery is under

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-mastery-feats

Unless you are talking about The actual FIGHTER Class feature for advance weapon training, which has Item Mastery as an option.
The advance weapon training feat does not seem to give you access to the class feature, but instead to actual weapon master feats.

Magic Tactics Toolbox added Item Mastery and Warrior Spirit (Su) under Advanced Weapon Training.

Ok, this is probably why I am confused. I was looking on the current online Advanced Weapon training feat.


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If one wants to be pedantic the item casting the spell means you still get to do stuff, but we know that is not going to fly if the PDT steps in. The items is the one supplying the spell, and you are still going to get stuck with the penalties associated with it. You do not qualify for.

Staves have a similar affect. They allow the user to activate a spell, while not being the actual caster, and he is still stuck with any penalties such as losing his movement after using DD. He can not however use the staff to qualify for any feats since he is only activating an item.

Otherwise someone(fighter, rogue, etc) could get a staff with arcane and divine spells and qualify for Mystic Theurge(Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.)


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Ah, the old dream of unlocking Dimensional Agility etc. early for a martial...

Quick breakdown from my point of view:

* Teleportation Mastery needs 4 ranks and is no combat feat, so you can get it at level 5. But for base Fortitude +6 at level 5 you have to multiclass - else it will be level 9 (8 for Fortitude +6, 9 for noncombat feat).

* It works just once per day, until you make it to higher base Fortitude - we are talking about level 14 for the second use. Multiclassing speeds it up, but becomes more and more challenging to get it properly done.

* It needs a standard action to activate.

* Dimensional Agility is also just a regular feat, so (assuming Teleportation Mastery would qualify) your earliest entry is character level 7.

* Dimensional Assault and Dimensional Dervish needs level 9 and 11, accordingly. It's debatable whether it shortens the casting time in these case - given you are not casting the spell. Without the action discount both feats become worthless.

So assuming you got a GM allowing you all that, you acquire an expensive battle option, somewhat comparable to beast totem barbarian's pounce or mobile fighter's rapid attack. Balance wise it feels ok.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:

If one wants to be pedantic the item casting the spell means you still get to do stuff, but we know that is not going to fly if the PDT steps in. The items is the one supplying the spell, and you are still going to get stuck with the penalties associated with it. You do not qualify for.

Staves have a similar affect. They allow the user to activate a spell, while not being the actual caster, and he is still stuck with any penalties such as losing his movement after using DD. He can not however use the staff to qualify for any feats since he is only activating an item.

Otherwise someone(fighter, rogue, etc) could get a staff with arcane and divine spells and qualify for Mystic Theurge(Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.)

If we want to be pedantic that way, you use the action to activate the item, but then it has to act to cast the spell ....

So, when is the item turn?
What is initiative modifier (generally items don't have a dexterity stat, so - should be treated as dex 10 or dex 0?
How do it know where you want to go (most items have no intelligence)?
Etc.


Hi, back from vacation.

First of all I want to say that I have not built towards this or anything, as someone above mentioned it was yet another stab at breaking into the Dimensional Savant feats a little earlier.

That being said, many other people have mentioned that possessing an item that is use activated/has charges does not qualify you for feat pre-reqs. I would like to clarify that that is not what is happening here.

Item Mastery:
Quote:

Using an item mastery feat is a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, similar to activating a command word item, though you do not need to speak to use the feat. Creating these effects requires you to assault the existing magic of the item through your force of will and channel the item's inherent magic through your own body; this act is thus governed by the user's fortitude.

All effects created by item mastery feats act as spell-like abilities and use your base attack bonus as the caster level.

Any spell-like ability's save DC is equal to 10 + the spell level + your Constitution modifier. If a spell-like ability calls for a calculation using your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma bonus or modifier, use your Constitution bonus or modifier instead.

Magic item mastery is stressful for the item as well as the user and can't be performed on items that can be used only a limited number of times or that must be recharged (such as elixirs, potions, scrolls, staffs, and wands)—it requires items with constant effects or daily uses. Magic item mastery doesn't affect an item's normal properties or deplete any of its daily uses.

I should have clarified this in my initial post, but it was the end of the day and i had a flight to catch. The question should have been phrased like this: Does having Dimension Door as a spell-like ability allow you to satisfy this pre-req:

Dimensional Agility wrote:
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.

If it does allow you to qualify it would be a new (or at least unknown to me) inroad to the Dimensional Savant line for fighters (if you follow the guide i linked to in the op)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Act as a SLA =/= you have a SLA

The former explain how it work, the latter say you have it.


Is there a precedent for a character that currently can cast spells, thus having innate access to spells and likewise feats and PrCs locked behind such, but needs a specific item to cast those spells. As in, without said item, they can cast no spells?


Diego Rossi wrote:

Act as a SLA =/= you have a SLA

The former explain how it work, the latter say you have it.

So then the item is using the SLA? now you're back to the item needing to have its own turn. You may also be missing the fact that the feat is giving you effective caster levels for this purpose, which is pointing more towards the PC being the source of the SLA and not the item.

In fact I'd say the item is being treated as a very specific spell component.


Frosty Ace wrote:
Is there a precedent for a character that currently can cast spells, thus having innate access to spells and likewise feats and PrCs locked behind such, but needs a specific item to cast those spells. As in, without said item, they can cast no spells?

Occultists. Also see spell components.


Frosty Ace wrote:
Is there a precedent for a character that currently can cast spells, thus having innate access to spells and likewise feats and PrCs locked behind such, but needs a specific item to cast those spells. As in, without said item, they can cast no spells?

Such as a Wizard with a spellbook, a witch with a familiar or an Occultist with their implements?

All get their "items" as class features, the wizard is the source of their power but refers to their book on specifics (I suppose this is an accurate representation of that relationship?) A witch's power comes from their patron and through their familiar so that is kind of an outside item providing them with their spellcasting power. An Occultist is kind of a class that takes item mastery feats to an extreme level in theme at least. i know the least about that class but it also seems closest to what you are asking. If the GM takes the implements away than the Occultist cant use any spells from the implement's school.

in the game world Item Mastery and an Occultist would probably look the same to anyone witnessing them work but to players one is using a feat and magic item while the other has a class feature.


Ridiculon wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Act as a SLA =/= you have a SLA

The former explain how it work, the latter say you have it.

So then the item is using the SLA? now you're back to the item needing to have its own turn. You may also be missing the fact that the feat is giving you effective caster levels for this purpose, which is pointing more towards the PC being the source of the SLA and not the item.

In fact I'd say the item is being treated as a very specific spell component.

no. no one is casting an SLA. you are channeling magic through you from an item and making an effect. it does not provoke. it is a standard action. you brought about a dimension door effect that acts as but is not an SLA.

i agree that you are the source of the effect but the question is does this count as the ability to "cast" the spell? i'm not sure. i'd probably allow it, but how does RAW define "ability to cast" if at all?


I would say spellbooks and material components don't count.

Spells allow you to prepare the spells, afterwards you don't need the spell during casting. The wizard has to memorize the spell to cast it that day, but he can always cast read magic from memory without a spellbook. Material components are a part of the spell, yes the spell doesn't work without them but they don't allow you to access to cast the spell.

The Occultist implements are probably the only example, in which magic items provide the ability to cast spells, but it is a rather weird example and is probably the example as an exception that proves the general rule.


Claxon wrote:
The Occultist implements are probably the only example, in which magic items provide the ability to cast spells, but it is a rather weird example and is probably the example as an exception that proves the general rule.

though they do have a spell list. the implement is basically a focus requirement, isn't it?


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So really the argument is "casting" vs creation of a spell through your own will power, because without you the effect would otherwise be impossible (As in a bard can't grab your ring or sword and do it), and at your will you can make the spell whenever you want (With limits, no different from any wizard or monk).

Am I close? I understand the reasoning, since RAW is God (Praise Shield Master, am I right?), but for it to not allow a selection of the Dimensional feats means that the character isn't casting it, but you want to impose restrictions because they're casting it, but still not casting it enough for the feat pre requisite, which is going both the route of going RAW and ignoring RAW.

Then there's RAI, which, I mean... I'm sure the intention is to have the character casting a spell, right? If the DC is relative to the character, if ever there is one, then the character is casting a spell, unlike say drinking a potion or using a wand. Unless there are instances of stats effecting a DC and it not being because of the character...?


Frosty Ace wrote:

So really the argument is "casting" vs creation of a spell through your own will power, because without you the effect would otherwise be impossible (As in a bard can't grab your ring or sword and do it), and at your will you can make the spell whenever you want (With limits, no different from any wizard or monk).

Am I close? I understand the reasoning, since RAW is God (Praise Shield Master, am I right?), but for it to not allow a selection of the Dimensional feats means that the character isn't casting it, but you want to impose restrictions because they're casting it, but still not casting it enough for the feat pre requisite, which is going both the route of going RAW and ignoring RAW.

Then there's RAI, which, I mean... I'm sure the intention is to have the character casting a spell, right? If the DC is relative to the character, if ever there is one, then the character is casting a spell, unlike say drinking a potion or using a wand. Unless there are instances of stats effecting a DC and it not being because of the character...?

welcome to the rules forum? RAI is unknowable. you can be sure the intent was to have the character cast the spell, but their intent might also include never having intended a fighter to be able to take the dimensional _____ line. who the f knows? possibly not even the devs as the intent they settle on telling us may not be the same as the intent at the time of writing if they even remember that.

so yeah... personally, i'd allow it, but expect variation. argue with talk to your GM.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
cuatroespada wrote:
Claxon wrote:
The Occultist implements are probably the only example, in which magic items provide the ability to cast spells, but it is a rather weird example and is probably the example as an exception that proves the general rule.
though they do have a spell list. the implement is basically a focus requirement, isn't it?
PRD wrote:

Spells: An occultist casts psychic spells drawn from the occultist spell list, limited by the implement groups he knows. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every occultist spell has an implement component (see Implements). To learn or cast a spell, an occultist must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an occultist's spell equals 10 + the spell level + the occultist's Intelligence modifier.

An occultist can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the Occultist progression table. In addition, he gains bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

The occultist's selection of spells is limited. For each implement school he learns to use, he can add one spell of each level he can cast to his list of spells known, chosen from that school's spell list. If he selects the same implement school multiple times, he adds one spell of each level from that school's list for each time he has selected that school. When the occultist learns to cast a new level of spells, he immediately adds one spell of that level to his list of spells known from each implement school he knows (plus any extra spells from schools he has selected multiple times).

At 5th level and every 3 occultist levels thereafter (8th, 11th, and so on), an occultist can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the occultist loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level occultist spell the occultist can cast. The spell learned must come from the same list of spells provided by the implement school of the spell lost. An occultist can swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for that level.

An occultist need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.

. . . . .

Implements (Su): At 1st level, an occultist learns to use two implement schools. At 2nd level and every 4 occultist levels thereafter, the occultist learns to use one additional implement school, to a maximum of seven schools at 18th level. Each implement school adds one spell per spell level of that school of magic to the occultist's spell list. No spells from any other school are considered to be on the occultist's spell list until he selects the associated implement school. He can't use spell trigger or spell completion magic items from unknown schools without succeeding at the appropriate Use Magic Device check. An occultist can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.

Each implement school is represented by a small list of objects. Every day, the occultist selects one item from that school's list to be his implement for the day for each implement school he knows. The occultist needs only one such item to cast spells of the corresponding school, unless he selected that implement school multiple times, in which case he needs one item for each set of spells gained from that school. Implements don't need to be magic items, and nonmagical implements don't take up a magic item slot even if they're worn. Implements that are not magic items are often of some historical value or of personal significance to the occultist, such as the finger bone of a saint, the broken scepter of a long-dead king, the skull of a mentor's familiar, or the glass eye of an uncanny ancestor.

Whenever an occultist casts a spell, he must have the corresponding implement in his possession and present the implement to the target or toward the area of effect. This act is part of casting the spell and doesn't require any additional action. If the occultist lacks the corresponding implement, he can attempt to cast the spell, but must succeed at a concentration check (DC = 20 + the spell's level) to do so. Spells cast by an occultist without the appropriate implement are always treated as if they were cast at the minimum caster level for the spell in question (caster level 1st for a 1st-level spell, caster level 4th for a 2nd-level spell, and so on).

Each implement school also grants a base focus power. This power is added to the list of focus powers possessed by the occultist (see Mental Focus below). In addition, each implement school grants access to a number of other focus powers that the occultist can select from using his mental focus class feature.

See the Implement Schools section for a complete list of implements associated with each school and their focus powers.

You learn the spells based on the implement school you choose and you can cast them even without the implement.

So no, the implement don't impart the ability to cast a spell, as you said, it is simply a focus item.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Frosty Ace wrote:

So really the argument is "casting" vs creation of a spell through your own will power, because without you the effect would otherwise be impossible (As in a bard can't grab your ring or sword and do it), and at your will you can make the spell whenever you want (With limits, no different from any wizard or monk).

Am I close? I understand the reasoning, since RAW is God (Praise Shield Master, am I right?), but for it to not allow a selection of the Dimensional feats means that the character isn't casting it, but you want to impose restrictions because they're casting it, but still not casting it enough for the feat pre requisite, which is going both the route of going RAW and ignoring RAW.

Then there's RAI, which, I mean... I'm sure the intention is to have the character casting a spell, right? If the DC is relative to the character, if ever there is one, then the character is casting a spell, unlike say drinking a potion or using a wand. Unless there are instances of stats effecting a DC and it not being because of the character...?

D20PRD wrote:

Teleportation Mastery (Item Mastery)

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You can coax teleportation from conjuration magic items.

Prerequisite(s): Use Magic Device 4 ranks, base Fortitude save bonus +6.

Benefit(s): You can cause an item that has a conjuration spell of 3rd level or higher in its construction requirements to cast dimension door.

You can use this ability once per day, plus an additional time per day at base Fortitude save bonus +9 and +12.

PRD wrote:

Dimensional Agility

Teleportation does not faze you.

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.

Benefit: After using abundant step or casting dimension door, you can take any actions you still have remaining on your turn. You also gain a +4 bonus on Concentration checks when casting teleportation spells.

The character with Teleportation Mastery has the ability to cast Dimension door? If you rule that a wand of Dimension door and enough ranks in UMD to activate it count as being able to cast dimension door, you should count Teleportation Mastery as being able to cast dimension dor, if you think that having a wand and UMD isn't enough, Teleportation Mastery isn't enough too.


Claxon wrote:

I would say spellbooks and material components don't count.

Spells allow you to prepare the spells, afterwards you don't need the spell during casting. The wizard has to memorize the spell to cast it that day, but he can always cast read magic from memory without a spellbook. Material components are a part of the spell, yes the spell doesn't work without them but they don't allow you to access to cast the spell.

The Occultist implements are probably the only example, in which magic items provide the ability to cast spells, but it is a rather weird example and is probably the example as an exception that proves the general rule.

the differences between the wizard casting a spell from his book and the fighter using Martial Flexibility(Advanced Weapon training > item mastery> teleportation mastery) to cast the spell are:

the wizard's ability is a spell which comes from a class ability and recharges its uses on rest with a 1 hour prep time

the fighter's ability is an SLA which comes from a class ability and recharges its uses on rest with a 1 move action prep time

The fact that the fighter's spell-like uses an item as a spell component (aka a necessary object to casting the spell) should not be enough of a difference to discount it imo, the character using this method can pick up any magic weapon from the correct fighter weapon group and use the spell-like, the component list would read Components M (magic weapon)

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