Can I qualify for Dimensional Agility this way?


Rules Questions

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Ridiculon wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I would say spellbooks and material components don't count.

Spells allow you to prepare the spells, afterwards you don't need the spell during casting. The wizard has to memorize the spell to cast it that day, but he can always cast read magic from memory without a spellbook. Material components are a part of the spell, yes the spell doesn't work without them but they don't allow you to access to cast the spell.

The Occultist implements are probably the only example, in which magic items provide the ability to cast spells, but it is a rather weird example and is probably the example as an exception that proves the general rule.

the differences between the wizard casting a spell from his book and the fighter using Martial Flexibility(Advanced Weapon training > item mastery> teleportation mastery) to cast the spell are:

the wizard's ability is a spell which comes from a class ability and recharges its uses on rest with a 1 hour prep time

the fighter's ability is an SLA which comes from a class ability and recharges its uses on rest with a 1 move action prep time

The fact that the fighter's spell-like uses an item as a spell component (aka a necessary object to casting the spell) should not be enough of a difference to discount it imo, the character using this method can pick up any magic weapon from the correct fighter weapon group and use the spell-like, the component list would read Components M (magic weapon)

The problem is that I disagree that the fighter actually has the SLA at all. He doesn't, the affect is cast as a SLA but it's the item doing the casting. That's why the fighter doesn't qualify.

The item isn't just a component, it is the thing that has the magic. The feat just allows you the ability to make it do something that the normal magic of the item doesn't do.

Besides which, focuses and material components of spells are specified, the Item Mastery feat doesn't specify that it is a focus or component so it's not. Those are specific game mechanics, you can't just call the item such because it's convenient.


Claxon wrote:
Ridiculon wrote:
Claxon wrote:
...
...

The problem is that I disagree that the fighter actually has the SLA at all. He doesn't, the affect is cast as a SLA but it's the item doing the casting. That's why the fighter doesn't qualify.

The item isn't just a component, it is the thing that has the magic. The feat just allows you the ability to make it do something that the normal magic of the item doesn't do.

Besides which, focuses and material components of spells are specified, the Item Mastery feat doesn't specify that it is a focus or component so...

I'll address the bolded part, which is the part i think is incorrect.

1. SLA's are affected by spell resistance, spell resistance requires the caster to make a caster level check.

2. non-intelligent items cannot make caster level checks because they do not have class levels that grant them caster levels (actually im not sure about the intelligent ones either but they haven't been part of the discussion yet so i'll leave them out)

3. from the first two point's i conclude that items cannot use SLA's

4. further, the item mastery feats specifically grant caster levels to the fighter for the purpose of using these feats

5. from the 3rd and 4th points i conclude that the fighter, being the only one in the event that can use/cast SLA's, must be the one using/casting the SLA

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Claxon wrote:
I disagree that the fighter actually has the SLA at all.

+1

@Ridiculon, I get you don't agree. It's fine. You can use your interpretation for your games and ask your GM to match. If you sit at a game I'm running, it won't count as a SLA for the Fighter.


Ridiculon wrote:

2. non-intelligent items cannot make caster level checks because they do not have class levels that grant them caster levels (actually im not sure about the intelligent ones either but they haven't been part of the discussion yet so i'll leave them out)

Actually they can and do.

Lets say you use a Wand of Fireball against a creature that has Spell Resistance...

The wand has a caster level when it was made. For a normal wand that would be caster level 5 (minimum caster level required to cast fireball, but could be higher depending on what the caster decides when they make it). For the purpose of overcoming the spell resistance you would roll 1d20 + 5 (or whatever caster level the item was made with).


Claxon wrote:
Ridiculon wrote:

2. non-intelligent items cannot make caster level checks because they do not have class levels that grant them caster levels (actually im not sure about the intelligent ones either but they haven't been part of the discussion yet so i'll leave them out)

Actually they can and do.

Lets say you use a Wand of Fireball against a creature that has Spell Resistance...

The wand has a caster level when it was made. For a normal wand that would be caster level 5 (minimum caster level required to cast fireball, but could be higher depending on what the caster decides when they make it). For the purpose of overcoming the spell resistance you would roll 1d20 + 5 (or whatever caster level the item was made with).

But that isn't an SLA! thats the whole point im trying to make, that wand has a pre-loaded spell that was cast by someone who does have caster levels and is being activated now and does not depend on the user's caster level.

No matter what level the user is, the spell that comes out of that wand will always be at the same caster level as when it was cast.

The item mastery feat is a brand new thing that was not cast earlier, its is being cast now by the fighter and using the fighter's caster levels.
The SLA being cast in this case varies in caster level because the fighter can gain more caster levels.


Ridiculon wrote:
The SLA being cast in this case varies in caster level because the fighter can gain more caster levels.

this may be overly pedantic, but its not an SLA. it acts as an SLA but doesn't provoke.

that said, i definitely agree the effect originates from the character even if the magic is siphoned from an item. the character is using its body to channel and change the magic. whether or not that qualifies you for the aforementioned feats is still debatable, but i see little reason to disallow it. the character has reliable enough access to this ability to practice with it regularly.


Ridiculon wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Ridiculon wrote:

2. non-intelligent items cannot make caster level checks because they do not have class levels that grant them caster levels (actually im not sure about the intelligent ones either but they haven't been part of the discussion yet so i'll leave them out)

Actually they can and do.

Lets say you use a Wand of Fireball against a creature that has Spell Resistance...

The wand has a caster level when it was made. For a normal wand that would be caster level 5 (minimum caster level required to cast fireball, but could be higher depending on what the caster decides when they make it). For the purpose of overcoming the spell resistance you would roll 1d20 + 5 (or whatever caster level the item was made with).

But that isn't an SLA! thats the whole point im trying to make, that wand has a pre-loaded spell that was cast by someone who does have caster levels and is being activated now and does not depend on the user's caster level.

No matter what level the user is, the spell that comes out of that wand will always be at the same caster level as when it was cast.

The item mastery feat is a brand new thing that was not cast earlier, its is being cast now by the fighter and using the fighter's caster levels.
The SLA being cast in this case varies in caster level because the fighter can gain more caster levels.

Personally (as implied above), I view these feats as hybrids between casting and magic item activation. As such, they don't fit easily into the existing rules, though the RAW view is most likely the more restrictive as far as qualifying for feats goes. At my table, I'd probably allow them to be used to qualify for feats though, because I feel that Fighters (in particular) could use the love.

That being said, there is a class of magic items (Staves) that already allow the caster level of the activator to apply. So the Item Mastery feat holder being able to apply his level to the SLA isn't necessarily definitive proof of anything.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This argument is pretty circular at this point. I get the feeling that most participants have picked the ruling they prefer and are now just looking for arguments to support it.

There are two key disagreements here:

1) Can benefits provided from magical items, such as spell-like abilities, be used to meet prerequisites?

2) Does the answer to the above question change if the magical properties in question are endowed by another feat or class feature that the character has?

The core rulebook is silent on the matter of how magical items interact with prerequisites. Almost everyone agrees that attribute bonuses can be used to meet prerequisites, but there appears to be no consensus on other item properties such as SLA's. I don't think there's much left to say at this point. If someone can find a relevant precedent or rule that hasn't been discussed yet that would be one thing, but it seems we just disagree on those two points and this issue can't be resolved definitively while we do. The only thing left if people still feel strongly on the matter is to FAQ it.


Dasrak wrote:
If someone can find a relevant precedent or rule that hasn't been discussed yet that would be one thing, but it seems we just disagree on those two points and this issue can't be resolved definitively while we do. The only thing left if people still feel strongly on the matter is to FAQ it.

i believe the special requirements for putting ranks in the fly skill are relevant, but maybe that's just me.


Fair enough Dasrak, no need to hash it out to 100s of post over such a niche case.

Cheburn, the hybrid-not-clearly-definedness of the issue was the reason for posting, if we can't find a clear answer in the rules then at least we can draw a little attention to it. I've never actually used staffs and they do get pretty close to this case, with the notable exception that they have an explicit magic item activation type (spell-trigger).

cuatroespada, acting as an SLA is a good thing to point out as there doesn't seem to be too many instances of that phrase in the rules (that i know about anyway)

thanks to everyone for their replies


Dasrak wrote:

This argument is pretty circular at this point. I get the feeling that most participants have picked the ruling they prefer and are now just looking for arguments to support it.

There are two key disagreements here:

1) Can benefits provided from magical items, such as spell-like abilities, be used to meet prerequisites?

The only time we see magic items as counting for prerequisites is when the benefits of the item are continuous. The primary examples being stat enhancing items such as belts and headbands.

A creature with 11 strength does not qualify for power attack. A creature with 11 strength that puts on a +2 belt of physical might (strength) now has a strength of 13 and qualifies for power attack. If he loses the belt for some reason, he no longer qualifies and cannot use the feat until he meets the prerequisites again. He also could not use any feats that require power attack as a prerequisite either.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
The only time we see magic items as counting for prerequisites is when the benefits of the item are continuous. The primary examples being stat enhancing items such as belts and headbands.

And if you're wearing a Cape of the Mountebank, then you continually have the ability to cast Dimension Door (with no more limitations than someone who has a 1/day SLA). As I said, it feels like this one is circular and there are plenty of logical points that both sides can pull from to bolster their case. There's no hard rule that says one way or another.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I'd also rule the Cape of the Mountebank user doesn't have a SLA Dimension Door.


Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

If one wants to be pedantic the item casting the spell means you still get to do stuff, but we know that is not going to fly if the PDT steps in. The items is the one supplying the spell, and you are still going to get stuck with the penalties associated with it. You do not qualify for.

Staves have a similar affect. They allow the user to activate a spell, while not being the actual caster, and he is still stuck with any penalties such as losing his movement after using DD. He can not however use the staff to qualify for any feats since he is only activating an item.

Otherwise someone(fighter, rogue, etc) could get a staff with arcane and divine spells and qualify for Mystic Theurge(Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.)

If we want to be pedantic that way, you use the action to activate the item, but then it has to act to cast the spell ....

So, when is the item turn?
What is initiative modifier (generally items don't have a dexterity stat, so - should be treated as dex 10 or dex 0?
How do it know where you want to go (most items have no intelligence)?
Etc.

Are you saying Paizo intended for staves to let you qualify for prestige classes?


cuatroespada wrote:

RAI is unknowable.

That statement is 100% false.

There are enough statements from board members that match devs to prove it.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

wraithstrike wrote:
cuatroespada wrote:

RAI is unknowable.

That statement is 100% false.

There are enough statements from board members that match devs to prove it.

+1


wraithstrike wrote:
cuatroespada wrote:

RAI is unknowable.

That statement is 100% false.

There are enough statements from board members that match devs to prove it.

how do you know the stated intent of the devs was their actual intent at the time? you can't. (neither can they for that matter.) so... RAI is unknowable.

or are you just going to ignore that part if this post too?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

cuatroespada wrote:
how do you know the stated intent of the devs was their actual intent at the time? you can't. (neither can they for that matter.) so... RAI is unknowable.

All I have to say is that stance is highly offensive and non productive.


it's not really a stance so much as reality. you can assume you can know things you can't because you find it expedient if you want, but you're still just assuming you know things you can't.

and i actually find it more productive than worrying about unknowable stuff. i actually find all the forum lurking because you can't just decide what works for you at your table (PFS is excused because it's organized play) to be counter-productive. it doesn't matter what the devs think they meant. it matters what works for you and your group. constantly asking for the devgods to descend from the heavens and share their thoughts on what their thoughts might have been a few months ago when they wrote that one sentence of the hundreds they wrote then seems silly.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

If you have a post by a developer, design team member, or campaign staff member saying how a rule works, it works that way. It is highly unproductive for individuals to dismiss those statements as irrelevant.


James Risner wrote:
If you have a post by a developer, design team member, or campaign staff member saying how a rule works, it works that way. It is highly unproductive for individuals to dismiss those statements as irrelevant.

incorrect. that is how that person thinks it works. unless officially clarified via errata or FAQ, the opinions of staff on how things work are just that. they may or may not be the original intent, but that's unknowable. you (and anyone else) are free to allow that opinion to affect how you play, but no one is obligated to do that.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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cuatroespada wrote:
incorrect. that is how that person thinks it works.

You are welcome to use that in your games. But that attitude is harmful and unhelpful online. Especially when you deviate from what the developers say. You will find that view unwelcome and frankly unacceptable at many tables.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

If one wants to be pedantic the item casting the spell means you still get to do stuff, but we know that is not going to fly if the PDT steps in. The items is the one supplying the spell, and you are still going to get stuck with the penalties associated with it. You do not qualify for.

Staves have a similar affect. They allow the user to activate a spell, while not being the actual caster, and he is still stuck with any penalties such as losing his movement after using DD. He can not however use the staff to qualify for any feats since he is only activating an item.

Otherwise someone(fighter, rogue, etc) could get a staff with arcane and divine spells and qualify for Mystic Theurge(Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.)

If we want to be pedantic that way, you use the action to activate the item, but then it has to act to cast the spell ....

So, when is the item turn?
What is initiative modifier (generally items don't have a dexterity stat, so - should be treated as dex 10 or dex 0?
How do it know where you want to go (most items have no intelligence)?
Etc.

Are you saying Paizo intended for staves to let you qualify for prestige classes?

No, that if someone try to use the pedantic reading that it is the item that cast the spell, so the character won't lose the rest of his turn, I would use the pedantic reading that the item would use its initiative and not that of the character, as it is the item than act.

The character use his action to force the item to obey him, but the item act at its initiative.
Both interpretations are false, but sometime it is worth pointing out the effect of this king of twisted reading of the rules get you.


James Risner wrote:
cuatroespada wrote:
incorrect. that is how that person thinks it works.
You are welcome to use that in your games. But that attitude is harmful and unhelpful online. Especially when you deviate from what the developers say. You will find that view unwelcome and frankly unacceptable at many tables.

EVERYONE is welcome to use that. that's how language works. you can intend whatever you want when you make words, but it's not anyone else's fault if they interpret them differently from you. and that they have a different interpretation doesn't actually make them incorrect. an utterance can have multiple valid interpretations and the intent of the speaker is largely irrelevant to the validity of those interpretations.

as a side note, it's annoying when people think they're an english expert because they speak it. that's like telling a chef you're an expert on food because you eat. i actively study english and linguistics and am nowhere near an expert.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

cuatroespada wrote:
as a side note, it's annoying when people think they're an english expert because they speak it.

I'm not sure who you are trying to insult with that line (and the rest of the post).

I'm taking issue with the willfully ignoring developer comments and FAQ to push an interpretation that is known to be false.

You seem to be trying to change the subject to classify all interpretations into the same classification.

Interpretations are not a problem, ignoring the known correct ones are.


James Risner wrote:
cuatroespada wrote:
as a side note, it's annoying when people think they're an english expert because they speak it.

I'm not sure who you are trying to insult with that line (and the rest of the post).

I'm taking issue with the willfully ignoring developer comments and FAQ to push an interpretation that is known to be false.

You seem to be trying to change the subject to classify all interpretations into the same classification.

Interpretations are not a problem, ignoring the known correct ones are.

and i'm taking issue with calling those interpretations "correct" as though that means the others are not correct based on the perceived authority of the devs. that's subscribing to logical fallacies.

if you felt insulted, you should probably reflect on that.


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cuatroespada has a point. We can't be 100% certain about RAI until a dev actually says what RAI is and even then RAI can change.

For example, everyone was wrong with their RAI on how flurry of blows originally worked and according to RAI the zen archer monk didn't function as written. Then they changed the RAW and the RAI so that it did work.

All this RAI talk seems off topic to me though. The original question was "does Teleportation Mastery qualify you for Dimensional Agility". This kicked off a larger question of "what does and does not count for prerequisites?"

Specifically I think the question is something along the lines of:

"Does having access to spells or spell-like abilities through items or feats count as having access to spells for the purpose of meeting prerequisites?"

I think there's a good FAQ question in here that someone more well versed in the rules than me should write as this sounds like the sort of thing that should be nailed down for PFS.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think there are at least 3 FAQ:

Direct access to spells or spell like abilities trough feats count as meeting a prerequisite for other feats?
(Almost certainly yes, barring very specific wording of the prerequisite requirements)

Having a item that give access to spells or spell like abilities count as meeting a prerequisite for feats?
Almost certainly no)

Indirect access to spells or spell like abilities trough a feat, like Teleportation Mastery(Item Mastery, that require a specific item or class of items to work count as meeting a prerequisite for other feats?
(I think not, others think yes, that is the whole point of this thread)

And those FAQs can be repeated changing feat prerequisites to prestige class prerequisites.


Diego Rossi wrote:

I think there are at least 3 FAQ:

Direct access to spells or spell like abilities trough feats count as meeting a prerequisite for other feats?
(Almost certainly yes, barring very specific wording of the prerequisite requirements)

Having a item that give access to spells or spell like abilities count as meeting a prerequisite for feats?
Almost certainly no)

Indirect access to spells or spell like abilities trough a feat, like Teleportation Mastery(Item Mastery, that require a specific item or class of items to work count as meeting a prerequisite for other feats?
(I think not, others think yes, that is the whole point of this thread)

And those FAQs can be repeated changing feat prerequisites to prestige class prerequisites.

The issue here is that you would be gaining access to the spell like through a class feature ultimately, not a feat.

The class ability Martial Flexibility would count as the source of the spell-like from my original post, its just a long and meandering path to it which is what was confusing me.

So the FAQ question should be, "Can you fulfill feat prerequisites with spell-like abilities you have access to through class features?"


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Not sure if anyone has pointed this out yet, and I don't have time to read 79 posts, but the overall rules for Item Mastery feats have this to say:

Item Mastery wrote:
Using an item mastery feat is a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, similar to activating a command word item, though you do not need to speak to use the feat. Creating these effects requires you to assault the existing magic of the item through your force of will and channel the item’s inherent magic through your own body; this act is thus governed by the user’s fortitude. All effects created by item mastery feats act as spell-like abilities and use your base attack bonus as the caster level. Any spell-like ability’s save DC is equal to 10 + the spell level + your Constitution modifier. If a spell-like ability calls for a calculation using your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma bonus or modifier, use your Constitution bonus or modifier instead.

So the over all description says you use your own force of will and channel magic through your own body. It goes on to say all abilities act as SLAs. And then continues to refer to the abilities as SLAs in the following sentences and says your casting ability for these SLAs is your Constitution.


yeah, there is some contention as to the source of the SLA at the time of casting. I'm of the opinion that the character is the source, others are saying that the item is the source and therefore the character does not "have" the SLA to qualify for prereqs


Seems fairly straight forward IMO.

The description references how to treat it in regard to SLAs. The overall description even says ALL of the abilities granted by these feats are channeled through the user's own body.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

For me instead the meandering path don't count for anything. What matter is the end effect. You are using a magic item to cast a SLA. And using a magic item to cast a spell, in my opinion, don't count for a feat prerequisite.
If you remove the magic item you can't cast it, so it isn't an inherent ability.
The enhancement from belts and headbands, instead, is explicitly part of the character permanent abilities (see the glossary).
From my point of view you need an explicit permission to count something coming from a magic item as part of your character inherent abilities.

Our positions are too far apart to be resolved without an intervention from the PDT.


I can understand that. We will probably not come to a consensus here, and even if we do it won't matter when/if there's a DT statement concerning these feats. However, that doesn't mean we can't debate. I don't know if this feat constitutes an SLA or not, it seems similar but also seems to be a completely new class of abilities... that said, I do believe it constitutes an "ability to cast" even if it is a highly conditional one.

Item Mastery wrote:
Creating these effects requires you to assault the existing magic of the item through your force of will and channel the item’s inherent magic through your own body...

This makes it sound like it's a person casting the spell. They just have to siphon magical energy from an enchanted item to do it.

Diego wrote:
The enhancement from belts and headbands, instead, is explicitly part of the character permanent abilities (see the glossary).

I am aware of the rules for Belts and Headbands; and yet, the exact same thing will happen if you lose that item... You lose any ability associated with it. At least the character with an Item Mastery feat can't just lose his ability, he may lose an item, but all he has to do is find another item with the appropriate magical energy and he can go right back to manipulating it. The wearer of a belt or headband has to go find another identical belt or headband to get his abilities back. In your opinion, which one of those is the more permanent ability?

Diego wrote:
If you remove the magic item you can't cast it, so it isn't an inherent ability.

And what happens if you lose your magic belt or headband?

Also there is already a president for conditional SLAs that only work when you meet certain criteria. Fey Magic alternate racial trait for example grants SLAs that only work in a certain terrain.

...

Is there a rule or president that states "ability to cast" exclusively means you are a Caster or have an SLA? With the understanding that wands, staves, and scrolls don't count, that has been explicitly stated by DT.

I ask because we are not talking about an item that casts Dimension door 1-3/day. We're talking about an item that could have nothing to do with that spell and who's energy is being siphoned off to cast a completely different spell.

There is no connection between a Handy Haversack and the Dimension Door spell. The Haversack can't cast DD on it's own or in the hands of anyone who lacks this specific feat, so the Haversack can't be the caster. there is no president for that. On the other hand, there is a president for SLAs that are highly conditional.

Additionally, the description for Item Mastery Feats says you channel the energy through your body. And it is your body (Fort Save), not the item's limitations, that is the limiting factor on how many times per day you can use this ability.

Diego wrote:
From my point of view you need an explicit permission to count something coming from a magic item as part of your character inherent abilities.

A feat is an inherent ability. It may be conditional, many are (for instance: I challenge you to use Rapid fire without a ranged weapon), but it's still an inherent ability. I can lose the condition, but I can't lose the ability. IMO, that's more inherent than a headband or belt.

Feats wrote:
...as a general rule feats represent abilities outside of the normal scope of your character's race and class. Many of them alter or enhance class abilities or soften class restrictions, while others might apply bonuses to your statistics or grant you the ability to take actions otherwise prohibited to you.

Food for thought.


Shadowlord I think has put it absolute best thus far. The fact that the item itself is not capable of doing any of this without the character with the Item Mastery feat means it is entirely from the character, and the magic item is merely the focus for the spell. When this FAQ'd, I can only hope the devs see it the same way.

But then, I guess fighters can't have nice things...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Shadowlord wrote:
...also seems to be a completely new class of abilities...

Fully agree with that.


LOL, well at least there's some common ground.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Shadowlord I think has put it absolute best thus far.

I appreciate it.

...

So I was doing some more reading on this last night and was wondering if anyone in this thread has read up on the Relic Master Fighter Archetype that goes along with these rules. Their abilities paint a bit of a picture, IMO, of the theme of these abilities.

Improved Item Mastery (Su): wrote:
At 3rd level, once per day, a relic master can use a item mastery feat she knows with a magic item that doesn’t have an appropriate spell in its construction requirements. The magic item must meet all other requirements of the item mastery feat. Alternatively, if she is using a magic item with an appropriate spell in its construction requirements, she can use an item mastery feat without it counting against the feat’s total uses per day. She can use this ability one additional time per day at 7th, 11th, and 15th levels. This ability replaces armor training.

What that sounds like to me is the Relic Master learning to better channel and manipulate the magical energy siphoned from enchanted items. The RM can use Item Mastery abilities even when not in possession of an appropriate magic item. This means the RM can take an item with a 4th level Transmutation spell, siphon off Transmutation energy, and convert it to Conjuration energy while channeling and shaping it into a Dimension Door spell.

Alternately, if the RM has an appropriate item, it makes siphoning and channeling that energy even easier. They are now able to perform this act without taxing their body (IE: without using up one of their uses per day).

Relic Channeler (Su): wrote:
At 5th level, a relic master can increase the potency of a magic item she wields by investing it with a bit of her vitality as a swift action. If the item is armor, a shield, or a weapon, its enhancement bonus increases by 1 to a maximum of +5. If the magic item creates a spell or has a save DC, its effective caster level increases by 1. A relic master can use this ability for a number of minutes per day equal to 1 + her Constitution modifier (minimum 1 minute). This duration doesn’t need to be consecutive, but it must be used in 1-minute increments. This ability replaces weapon training.

This has little to do with the feats, but it paints a picture of, "the Relic Master can channel energy out of, or channel energy into" enchanted items.

Improvised Item Mastery (Su): wrote:
At 19th level as a full-round action, the relic master can select one item mastery feat whose prerequisites she meets but that she doesn’t already have. She gains access to this feat, though she can’t use it as a prerequisite for other feats or options. If she selects a different item mastery feat, she loses access to her previous use of improvised item mastery and any magic effect created with it ends immediately. Any daily uses of a selected improvised item mastery feat count against all improvised mastery feats selected in the same day. This ability replaces armor mastery.

Lastly, the RM has gotten so skilled at channeling energy into and out of enchanted items, and so good at converting one type of energy into another, that they can now attune themselves to schools of magic they aren't even fully trained in to produce a new effect on the fly.

I realize we are talking about Archetype abilities here and not just the IM feats, but they are from the same book and paint a larger picture of the theme of these abilities as a whole. IMO, that theme is more than simply forcing an item to cast a spell not used in it's creation. Its about channeling energy and manipulating it into a new effect.

All that said, I have no idea how the DT might rule on it. It's entirely possible they'll lump this in with wands, scrolls, and staves.

...

Also, and this is probably just a coincidence, but the Weapon Master's Handbook came out like a month before the Blood of Shadows book which gave Shadowdancers a Feat gateway to access the Dimensional Agility line.


hmm, that archetype is not as good as the method we are talking about here.

With the iron caster method you get both the benefits of the 3rd level archetype ability and the 19th level archetype ability at level 5... with any magic weapon you can use any of the item mastery feats (although it takes a minute to switch between them).

Granted your per-day uses are still locked to the base saves, so the 3rd level ability is slightly better

Thematically its very nice though


Sorry about the thread necromancy, I didn't want to start a new thread and lose the context created in this one.

So:

Quote:
All effects created by item mastery feats act as spell-like abilities and use your base attack bonus as the caster level. Any spell-like ability’s save DC is equal to 10 + the spell level + your Constitution modifier. If a spell-like ability calls for a calculation using your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma bonus or modifier, use your Constitution bonus or modifier instead.

If the effects are created by the feats, wouldn't that imply they're created by the ones applying the feats, instead of the items?

These effects "act as" spell-like abilities. But what are they? Is that just a convoluted way to say they actually are spell-like abilities? If not, again, what are they?

Can magic items actually create spell-like abilities at all? Aren't spell-like abilities creature abilities? I haven't found any items that create effects explicitly described as spell-like abilities, though admittedly I haven't done an exhaustive search.


James Risner wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Yeah, you're not casting the spell the item is. So you can't use it to qualify.

Even if it did let you cast (it doesn't), it would only work when you have chosen that feat with a move action.

Functionally this works like a wand of DD. You pick wher, make all the choices, lose your actions, but you don't count as casting a spell.

If you are not the one casting the spell, you don't take the penalties for casting the spell.

You cannot have it both ways. Pick one side of the fence and stay on it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Forseti wrote:
If the effects are created by the feats, wouldn't that imply they're created by the ones applying the feats, instead of the items?

Welcome to the unresolved circular argument from last year. Basically, we couldn't come to a consensus on the matter and there are reasonable arguments and counter-arguments for both camps. Lacking explicit rules text we missed last time or a FAQ, I don't think this debate is going to go anywhere.

Personally, my opinion is that there is no distinction between a SLA the character has naturally and a SLA granted by an item. Either way it is within the character's power to cast that SLA, which meets the prerequisites for the feat. It's established convention that items can be used to meet feat prerequisites, and I see no reason to treat SLA's and attribute bonuses differently in this regard.


As far as I've seen, you can only take a feat if you have the ability to qualify for more than 24 hours. You can't be under the effects of Bull's Strength when the "XP bar" fills up and qualify for Power Attack, but you can use a Belt of Giant's Strength to qualify (losing the benefits of the feat should the item ever be removed). I would think the same logic applies here. You could only take Dimensional Agility if you had the ability to use the DDoor SLA for at least 24 hours straight, and you would lose the benefits of the feat whenever you lack a DDoor SLA. Thus, gaining temporary access to a feat that gives you an SLA would not give you the prerequisites to take Dimensional Agility unless that temporary access extended over 24 hours.

Unless otherwise noted, I tend to follow the "duck rule." And this screams of the same FAQ that allowed people to qualify for feats using magical items, but not duration-based buffs (although, I'm not sure that FAQ fully resolved what happens if someone extends a buff beyond 24 hours, but that's not relevant at the moment).


darkerthought7 wrote:
As far as I've seen, you can only take a feat if you have the ability to qualify for more than 24 hours. You can't be under the effects of Bull's Strength when the "XP bar" fills up and qualify for Power Attack, but you can use a Belt of Giant's Strength to qualify (losing the benefits of the feat should the item ever be removed). I would think the same logic applies here. You could only take Dimensional Agility if you had the ability to use the DDoor SLA for at least 24 hours straight, and you would lose the benefits of the feat whenever you lack a DDoor SLA. Thus, gaining temporary access to a feat that gives you an SLA would not give you the prerequisites to take Dimensional Agility unless that temporary access extended over 24 hours.

I don't think using Martial Flexibility to pick up Teleportation Mastery to qualify for Dimensional Agility is what's in question here. As Martial Flexibility only lasts a minute, you definitely don't have the prerequisites long enough to qualify (secretwizard already covered this). And sadly as Dimensional Agility isn't a combat feat even though the rest of the line is, you cannot flex into Dimensional Agility.

The primary question currently unresolved is if someone takes Teleportation Mastery as one of their real feats, will they be able to qualify for Dimensional Agility?


*raise dead*
The post here in the Item Mastery Feats & the Magic Items That Fuel Them - A Study thread pointed me here.

cuatroespada wrote:
i believe the special requirements for putting ranks in the fly skill are relevant, but maybe that's just me.
Special Requirement wrote:
You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability).

Spells let you qualify for reliable access to flight. A 5th level wizard with no bonus spells gets a single third level spell. With the spell fly, they can now access flight 1/day and add ranks to the skill.

Adding ranks and adding feats both occur when advancing levels. Both are reflections of training you received.

I am on the side of the fence that this works.

/cevah

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