Intrepid Rescuer - The art of tactical napping


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Grand Lodge

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So, i recently came across this feat mentioned in the songbird of doom thread:

Intrepid Rescuer

So far as i can tell, this lets someone lying down on the job get free attacks of opportunity against anyone that tries to take a swing at them (applying the good old "you are your own ally" logic).

When combined with Monkey Style, you can function with no penalty while prone, kip up as a swift action (when your acrobatics is good enough) move, drop to prone, attack with no penalty, and get free AoOs whenever your opponent tries to attack back.

A human level 1 unarmed fighter (or MoMS Monk) could have money style, combat reflexes and Intrepid Rescuer ready to go, and start lying around the battlefield aggressively.

Are there any AoO-centric builds this would work well with? Teamwork hunter comes to mind with paired opportunists, any other ideas?

Sovereign Court

That's pretty funny, and could actually work. You'll want to have a printed version of the "your own ally" FAQ with you at all times though.


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I choose to picture this as tactical breakdancing!

Grand Lodge

Picturing this is the hardest thing for me. Especially if the character in question is wielding a reach weapon.

Combine with the rogue crawl ability to allow AoO free movement at half your movement.

Sovereign Court

I've seen martial arts styles focused on fighting from the ground up. If you know what you're doing, you have some advantage against people who haven't seen that before.

Sovereign Court

So, a little trawling on Archives of Nethys turns up some interesting tidbits.

1) The prerequisites for Intrepid Rescuer also include following Kurgess. That's fine, Kurgess is sympathetic and compatible with druids (see below).

2) You can either use Rogue Crawl or Fast Crawl to get around while prone, or eventually stand up fast enough with Monkey Style.

3) A Plains druid gains concealment when prone in natural surroundings. Depending on your campaign of course, this could be quite often. Moonlight Stalker comes to mind. And of course druids get access to Longstrider and if we're Fast Crawling at half our speed, we can certainly use the extra base speed.

Grand Lodge

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I quite like combining fast crawl/rogue crawl with step up.

He's getting away! Roll after him!


Awesome...I do have issues picturing this...Monkey style does provide some indication:

Your unarmed fighting style is nimble and unpredictable, full of ground rolls and short leaps.

Unarmed fighter can also get Monkey Style for free at level 1!

Grand Lodge

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For bonus fun, take Combat meditation to actually nap mid combat.

Shadow Lodge

Get a belt of the weasel to negate prone penalties more easily.

Grand Lodge

Belt of the weasel does allow this plan for any character without the monkey style feat, though 10k and the loss of the belt slot is not going to be easier for all characters.


Cool. Crawling around all spider monkey on 'em. But it comes with a significant hole in it. If you miss your AoO, you're giving the target a four point bonus to WHAP you. That's not small. Specially not if it has grab. Can you count as prone when grappled?


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Green Smashomancer wrote:
Cool. Crawling around all spider monkey on 'em. But it comes with a significant hole in it. If you miss your AoO, you're giving the target a four point bonus to WHAP you. That's not small. Specially not if it has grab. Can you count as prone when grappled?
Monkey style wrote:
You add your Wisdom bonus on Acrobatics checks. While using this style, you take no penalty on melee attack rolls or to AC while prone. Further, you can crawl and stand up from lying prone without provoking attacks of opportunity, and you can stand up as a swift action if you succeed at a DC 20 Acrobatics check.

Emphasis mine

Grand Lodge

Monkey style or the belt of the weasel gets us past the being hit in the face problem.

You can definitely be prone while grappled.

Though can you be prone while flying?


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Zedorland wrote:

You can definitely be prone while grappled.

Though can you be prone while flying?

Of course you can, Superman does it all the time.

Totally stealing this idea by the way.


So has anyone come up with a build for this yet?

Especially a good plan on how to flavor this?


For flavor, I like the tactical breakdancing idea already mentioned. Or maybe a combination of that and capoeira.

Alternatively, the showcased drunken boxing style from "The Legend of the Drunken Master" often involved falling down, rolling around, and kipping back up, though probably not as much as other styles. Combine this with some Barbarian for DR, and possibly the drinking archetypes for both Monk and Barbarian, and you might be on to something. If nothing else, the drinking would explain why you were constantly falling down and getting back up.

Grand Lodge

Drunken Master seems like a logical choice, as the monkey style feat would play well into "Drunken Monkey" style.

I think it works fine flavor wise for unarmed fighting, but weapons i am struggling with. Super keen for someone to come up with a flavor that works.

Build wise, I think a standard AoO build would work fine. A swashbuckler would probably have a pretty good time too, with high dex and good static damage.

Flavor is my major concern. Currently it lacks spice.


If flavor is the issue, instead of picturing it as someone laying flat on their back while trying to use a sword, spear, or whatever, picture it more as a very low combat stance. Like they are trying to shorten their profile, so as to be a worse target, and at the same time, coiling up to strike out if someone makes a move at them. That also gives flavor to why you get to attack everyone.

Essentially, don't picture the "prone" status as just meaning "laying on the ground". Picture it as "in a precariously low position". Except, in the case of this build, it's not even precarious since you aren't taking any penalties for being prone, and instead are getting some benefits (bonus AC vs ranged, extra AoO, etc.).

"Prone" and other status effects are abstract notions that work as labels for mechanical effects in the game, but that doesn't mean you have to be tied down to thinking of it only as literally "being on the ground" just because that is the definition of "being prone".

EDIT: It is called a "style" of fighting, so this combination of feats is essentially taking away the negative effects of the prone condition and turning it into a positive, effective, combat style, with it's own combat stance, which just happens to apply the "prone" condition effect to you while in that stance.

/smurfatar


Concerning weapons I was debating whether it might make sense with spears or the like. You're a Hunter who strikes from the underwood...This would prolly work better for small races while arguing that you are striking from below.

Mechanically I really dig the idea of combining this with Bodyguard. Also makes a certain amount of sense as you could argue that you are hampering attackers by tripping them up or something such.


It does seem to make the most sense with spears, polearms, and other "defensive" weapons, as this seems like a mostly defensive style, as I previously described.

It can easily be pictured as more of an offensive style as well though.

There are low martial arts stances where the body is held back, and the legs are kept forward in order to force the attacker to get within kicking range to reach your body. However, if trying to picture a more short range or offensive weapon, picture a stance where the body is forward, with the legs extended backward for balance. Kind of like what you might picture when using the Lunge feat, just lower to the ground, maybe even with one knee on the ground for a solid balance point. With the weapon held out and forward, it forces the attacker into the weapon first, before they can get to the body.

The inherent weakness in all of this, and the build itself, is that if an opponent has reach, and you don't, they don't have to come within reach of your AoOs, so you won't get them. Is there a way to work in some movement as part of an AoO, or a way to use an AoO on someone who is out of your reach? I feel like there is something like this flavored as you striking at them as they come within your reach to reach you.


To contribute to the build, at least for non-PFS, there is a third party race called a Kappa, that is essentially a small anthropomorphic turtle, that has a racial feat called Kappa Crawl allowing you to move at normal speed while prone, and a follow-up feat called Kappa Kiyup that allows you to stand up as a free action. I don't think these are that much better than what the build already has access to, especially since the Kappa is only 20ft speed, but it's something to take into consideration if the option is open to you.

Plus, who doesn't want to play a drunken mutant ninja turtle?

Sovereign Court

You'll probably end up having IUS from whatever method you use to get to Monkey Style. Combine that with a Reach weapon and you should be able to take most AoOs.

Maybe another interesting option would be the Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy Bloodrager. Take Celestial bloodline and and be a "paladin of Cayden", well-adapted to fighting while falling-down drunk. EDIT you have to follow Kurgess so that doesn't work.

Grand Lodge

yeah, the biggest restriction of the whole build is not being able to worship the god of drunken revelry, which makes basically any build make sense thematically.


HyperMissingno wrote:
I choose to picture this as tactical breakdancing!

You could flavor the character as a Capoeira master.


The whole Capoeira thing works pretty well for Kurgess imo.

Another strategy which would make a lot of sense from a flavor perspective would be to rely heavily on trip combat maneuvers. In the sense that you have trained ground fighting techniques all your life and try to get yur opponent where you have an advantage.

Another interesting interpretation would be to go heavy armor and litterally do the turtle after striking. Not overly realistic but fun...


No reason you can't be a worshipper of both (flavor-wise) is there? You officially worship Kurgess, to qualify for the feat, but you equally worship Cayden for his drunken revelry.


I'm having an idea of a character with 2 lvl of MoMS Monk primarily to get Monkey Style and Monkey Shine, one lvl of Mouser Swashbuckler for the move into enemy space on a miss and the counts as flanking if ally threatening that square, and Vexing Dodger Rogue.

Probably not the most super effective character, but there is so much hilarity involved in rolling around on the ground and then climbing all over your opponent.

And, mechanically, while performing your opponent climbing, you'd have +4 to hit and (effectively) +8 to AC versus that opponent [It is actually +4 to AC and opponent gets -4 to hit], plus whatever other modifiers you would normally have.


RaizielDragon wrote:
No reason you can't be a worshipper of both (flavor-wise) is there? You officially worship Kurgess, to qualify for the feat, but you equally worship Cayden for his drunken revelry.

Fun fact...Kurgess is supposedly the son of Desna and Cayden!

Liberty's Edge

Saldiven wrote:

I'm having an idea of a character with 2 lvl of MoMS Monk primarily to get Monkey Style and Monkey Shine, one lvl of Mouser Swashbuckler for the move into enemy space on a miss and the counts as flanking if ally threatening that square, and Vexing Dodger Rogue.

Probably not the most super effective character, but there is so much hilarity involved in rolling around on the ground and then climbing all over your opponent.

And, mechanically, while performing your opponent climbing, you'd have +4 to hit and (effectively) +8 to AC versus that opponent [It is actually +4 to AC and opponent gets -4 to hit], plus whatever other modifiers you would normally have.

You can't get monkey shine from MoMS. See songbird of doom thread for details.

That said, I think that the build would overall work well with a tiny character either from kitsune or songbird.

And you can always get monkey shine "the hard way" by getting up to lvl 11.

Edit: Note from the songbird of doom thread that this intrepid rescuer trick has been known before this thread came up.


nennafir wrote:
Saldiven wrote:

I'm having an idea of a character with 2 lvl of MoMS Monk primarily to get Monkey Style and Monkey Shine, one lvl of Mouser Swashbuckler for the move into enemy space on a miss and the counts as flanking if ally threatening that square, and Vexing Dodger Rogue.

Probably not the most super effective character, but there is so much hilarity involved in rolling around on the ground and then climbing all over your opponent.

And, mechanically, while performing your opponent climbing, you'd have +4 to hit and (effectively) +8 to AC versus that opponent [It is actually +4 to AC and opponent gets -4 to hit], plus whatever other modifiers you would normally have.

You can't get monkey shine from MoMS. See songbird of doom thread for details.

My bad; I was looking at Archives of Nethys and didn't realize they did not have the most up to date rules for MoMS.


RaizielDragon wrote:

If flavor is the issue, instead of picturing it as someone laying flat on their back while trying to use a sword, spear, or whatever, picture it more as a very low combat stance. Like they are trying to shorten their profile, so as to be a worse target, and at the same time, coiling up to strike out if someone makes a move at them. That also gives flavor to why you get to attack everyone.

Essentially, don't picture the "prone" status as just meaning "laying on the ground". Picture it as "in a precariously low position". Except, in the case of this build, it's not even precarious since you aren't taking any penalties for being prone, and instead are getting some benefits (bonus AC vs ranged, extra AoO, etc.).

"Prone" and other status effects are abstract notions that work as labels for mechanical effects in the game, but that doesn't mean you have to be tied down to thinking of it only as literally "being on the ground" just because that is the definition of "being prone".

EDIT: It is called a "style" of fighting, so this combination of feats is essentially taking away the negative effects of the prone condition and turning it into a positive, effective, combat style, with it's own combat stance, which just happens to apply the "prone" condition effect to you while in that stance.

/smurfatar

Voldo. I am making this character and I am dual-wielding garden shears. Hhhhhhhhhhhhssssrrrrgggghh


So what happens when you make the AoO from interprid Rescuer a Shield Slam and Bull Rush the attacker?


Well, AoOs interrupt the attack, so if you push them out of reach, I guess the attack auto-misses? Not sure if they get the action back or if it is considered wasted.

Sovereign Court

You waste their action. Same reason why this could be powerful with disarm or sunder builds.


Is it possible to also combine Intrepid Rescuer with a Flowing Monk's Redirection? Essentially getting an AoO and a trip on the same enemy.

Redirection:
At 1st level, as an immediate action, a flowing monk can attempt a reposition or trip combat maneuver against a creature that the flowing monk threatens and that attacks him. If the combat maneuver is successful, the attacker is sickened for 1 round (Reflex DC = 10 + 1/2 the monk’s level + monk’s Wisdom modifier to halve the duration), plus 1 additional round at 4th level and for every four levels afterward (to a maximum of 6 rounds at 20th level). The monk gains a +2 bonus on the reposition or trip combat maneuver check and the save DC for redirection increases by 2 if the attacker is using Power Attack or is charging when attacking him. The benefit increases to a +4 bonus and an increase of the saving throw by 4 if both apply.


I've been hearing in this thread and a couple other places reference to another thread, the "Songbird of Doom" thread as it is referred to.

I must be new or something, but I haven't seen it yet, and it sounds interesting.

Anyone got a convenient link?


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I'm seeing the user reclining on their side, propping their head up on their hand, elbow against the ground, one leg akimbo, and casually holding a rapier in one hand.

Liberty's Edge

Ten'shun the Tengu wrote:

I've been hearing in this thread and a couple other places reference to another thread, the "Songbird of Doom" thread as it is referred to.

I must be new or something, but I haven't seen it yet, and it sounds interesting.

Anyone got a convenient link?

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rzop?The-Songbird-of-Doom-A-Guide-to-a-most

The link

Make sure you read later in the thread, because there are corrections to things.


Thanks for the Link Nennafir, I appreciate it.


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Ah, yet another "Let's ignore the "Unless if doing so would make no sense or be impossible" clause of the "You are (almost always) your own ally" FAQ. I mean, literally, any time that FAQ is referenced, that clause needs to be checked. Why hasn't anybody even tried? Oh yeah, it's "funner" to subvert the purpose of the rules while still invoking legitimacy from them.

In this case, the Feat works on helpless, prone, or stunned allies.
Which just doesn't make sense when considering yourself your own ally.
The FAQ explicitly references the phrase "your allies" (plural, indefinite) as including yourself.
The FAQ is more focused on things granting a bonus to indefinite group ("your allies"), meant to exclude enemies and non-combatants.
Which doesn't apply here, the Feat is specifically referring to "a" helpless/prone/stunned ally.
This feat isn't applying to all allies, and shouldn't apply to yourself either.
Lastly, obviously it "makes no sense" to "Rescue" yourself, neither to always move about or at least end your turn prone.
The FAQ is not just another piece of "RAW" that can be trivially applied to rules text,
it explicitly requires you to assess what "makes no sense" from the broader context,
NOT just playing dumb when a certain phrase appears.


RaizielDragon wrote:
"Prone" and other status effects are abstract notions that work as labels for mechanical effects in the game, but that doesn't mean you have to be tied down to thinking of it only as literally "being on the ground" just because that is the definition of "being prone".

Uh... No. And the same goes for "up" and "down".

Your argument is based on the fact the game uses english words as game terms with more specific meanings than real world.
Which is great. But that doesn't mean that one can ignore the real meaning of all english words in the book,
it means that one should be aware of how the rules use that word for any evidence of a discrepancy between game term/english.
You haven't done that, you're just lazily trying to justify what is convenient for you.

The game glossary actually defines "Prone" as a game term, not just standard English definition: "The character is lying on the ground."
Paizo literally could not have made it more clear that they intend/expect Prone to correlate to "lying on the ground".
So yeah, if you want to contradict game rules in favor of what sounds good in your head, great,
just don't act like you're justified by the rules rather than making stuff up in your head.


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Quandary wrote:
Ah, yet another "Let's ignore the "Unless if doing so would make no sense or be impossible" clause of the "You are (almost always) your own ally" FAQ. I mean, literally, any time that FAQ is referenced, that clause needs to be checked. Why hasn't anybody even tried? Oh yeah, it's "funner" to subvert the purpose of the rules while still invoking legitimacy from them.

yeah, heaven forbid someone try a fun, mostly useless stupid little trick to make a character more interesting.

Especially when that character is a martial. Smash it to the ground because I don't like it! GRR.

Grand Lodge

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Quandary wrote:
RaizielDragon wrote:
"Prone" and other status effects are abstract notions that work as labels for mechanical effects in the game, but that doesn't mean you have to be tied down to thinking of it only as literally "being on the ground" just because that is the definition of "being prone".

Uh... No. And the same goes for "up" and "down".

Your argument is based on the fact the game uses english words as game terms with more specific meanings than real world.
Which is great. But that doesn't mean that one can ignore the real meaning of all english words in the book,
it means that one should be aware of how the rules use that word for any evidence of a discrepancy between game term/english.
You haven't done that, you're just lazily trying to justify what is convenient for you.

The game glossary actually defines "Prone" as a game term, not just standard English definition: "The character is lying on the ground."
Paizo literally could not have made it more clear that they intend/expect Prone to correlate to "lying on the ground".
So yeah, if you want to contradict game rules in favor of what sounds good in your head, great,
just don't act like you're justified by the rules rather than making stuff up in your head.

Tell you what. We will continue having fun in this little thread, considering the silly things one can do when lying on the ground, and you can toddle along somewhere else and play fun police there.

Everyone, I think, is aware of the sheer ridiculousness of this feat. We are enjoying trying to make the outrageous concept function mechanically.

So shoo. Go bother some other thread.


Quandary wrote:
RaizielDragon wrote:
"Prone" and other status effects are abstract notions that work as labels for mechanical effects in the game, but that doesn't mean you have to be tied down to thinking of it only as literally "being on the ground" just because that is the definition of "being prone".

Uh... No. And the same goes for "up" and "down".

Your argument is based on the fact the game uses english words as game terms with more specific meanings than real world.
Which is great. But that doesn't mean that one can ignore the real meaning of all english words in the book,
it means that one should be aware of how the rules use that word for any evidence of a discrepancy between game term/english.
You haven't done that, you're just lazily trying to justify what is convenient for you.

The game glossary actually defines "Prone" as a game term, not just standard English definition: "The character is lying on the ground."
Paizo literally could not have made it more clear that they intend/expect Prone to correlate to "lying on the ground".
So yeah, if you want to contradict game rules in favor of what sounds good in your head, great,
just don't act like you're justified by the rules rather than making stuff up in your head.

My post was merely trying to reflavor the prone condition after warping that condition immensely with feats that change the effects the condition has on you. I wasn't "lazily trying to justify what [was] convenient for [me]". You are correct that "the character is lying on the ground" is indeed listed as part of the condition, and I admit that I didn't realize, and didn't check, that specific line existed as part of the prone condition. However, what does that mechanically mean? It doesn't mechanically mean anything; it's just a repetition of the literal meaning of prone. -4 to melee attacks, no ranged attacks, +4 AC vs ranged attacks and -4 AC vs melee attacks all mechanically mean something and are the parts of the condition that matter, and I wasn't trying to hand wave away any of that. I was, inadvertently, attempting to ignore the "the character is lying on the ground" portion of the condition, which wouldn't really have an affect anywhere else in the game, as far as I know. Feel free to point out where I was incorrect though, since you seem to like doing so.

I concede, however, that your rules-fu is stronger than mine, and applaud you on jumping in here and stomping all over a conversation that was mostly just theory and (in the case of my post which you singled out in your second post) was only completely flavor. Bravo.


swoosh wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Ah, yet another "Let's ignore the "Unless if doing so would make no sense or be impossible" clause of the "You are (almost always) your own ally" FAQ. I mean, literally, any time that FAQ is referenced, that clause needs to be checked. Why hasn't anybody even tried? Oh yeah, it's "funner" to subvert the purpose of the rules while still invoking legitimacy from them.

yeah, heaven forbid someone try a fun, mostly useless stupid little trick to make a character more interesting.

Especially when that character is a martial. Smash it to the ground because I don't like it! GRR.

To be fair to Quandary, I wouldn't see this as a "stupid little trick". It seems pretty powerful to be able to smack an enemy every time they try to smack you; especially when it's almost completely from level one, and your smack preempts theirs. When I first saw the explanation of how it worked, it stank of some of the rankest cheese I've seen in a while, and I'm glad someone pointed out that it's kind of a perversion of the FAQ that is trying to be used to allow this, even if that point out was kind of heavy-handed.

That being said, I agree that martials need some extra toys to play with, and I think that has been slowly getting addressed, gradually removing the need to grasp at straws like this for a fun martial build.

Sovereign Court

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Quandary wrote:
Ah, yet another "Let's ignore the "Unless if doing so would make no sense or be impossible" clause of the "You are (almost always) your own ally" FAQ. I mean, literally, any time that FAQ is referenced, that clause needs to be checked. Why hasn't anybody even tried? Oh yeah, it's "funner" to subvert the purpose of the rules while still invoking legitimacy from them.

Are you having a bad day or something? It's fair to question whether the FAQ really applies - I'd been wondering too - but you don't have to be so hostile about it.

Let's look at the sources.

FAQ wrote:

Ally: Do you count as your own ally?

You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."

If we look at the feat, it's not "otherwise stated" or clearly "impossible";

Feat wrote:

Intrepid Rescuer (Combat)

Source Inner Sea Gods pg. 213
You instinctively react to interfere with foes that attack your allies or innocents.

Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, worshiper of Kurgess.

Benefit: Whenever an opponent you threaten makes an attack against a helpless, prone, or stunned ally or any attack against a noncombatant, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If your attack of opportunity hits your foe, she takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll that provoked this attack of opportunity.

There's nothing in the rules part of the text that causes this "make no sense". You can question the flavour text line or the name of the feat, which suggests that it's about rescuing other people from "unsportsmanlike" attacks (this is Kurgess, after all).

I'm not really convinced though. It requires a narrow reading of the flavour text and attaching a lot of importance to the name of the feat.


Neutral good alignment of Kurgess sort of shafts sacred summons reach clerics, but that is not a concern to a monster tactician who can standard action the whole non-evil monster catalogue...

All it takes is single dip in unarmed fighter and you could do a lot worse than the domains Kurgess offers for a divine reach caster monster tactician: Luck (!), community (cooperation subdomain to share those lovely teamwork feats with your party in addition to solo tactics and summoned monster!), Travel (kind of hilarious to dimensional hop just out of reach or in flanking position for the frontliner to wreck face but do it casually prone like as if you don't bother to get up), Strength, Good...

I would personally go for human with military tradition and choose proficiency with armor spikes and either a
1) flying blade,
2)elven branched spear
upping the to hit on AOO

3)a fauchard (improving crit chances)
than sticking with a longspear or a monk reach weapon and delay laying down on the floor until level 3

Heirloom weapon weapon can give another trait bonus to AOO, so could temple guard which might be allowed which might be allowed as its from Tianjing region where Desna is worshipped, mother of Kurgess, your character could have been temple warrior of Desna that slowly shifted its main religious focus from Desna to Kurgess. combining one of those two with either the flying blade or the elven branched spear as military tradition and you are up +3 on AOO compared to your normal attack while you reserve your SA for summoning or regular spellcasting.


If this is Necro sorry but with the threads that have mentioned this I must ask. Can you use this in combination with Jabbing Style to roll around your opponent while kicking them in the face? I know that isn't efficient but I think it would be funny to roll around your opponents in a figure 8 while kicking them all in the face.

On a more serious note, using this with Wolf Style to help make the AoO's more effective. Even going as far as using Wolf Trip to have a battle where everyone is prone.

Of course you would need to have a way to have both styles active, such as using Master of Many styles archetype but just imagine it.

Scarab Sages

I will say that while I normally hate the you are your own ally rule, (looking at you butterfly sting), in this case it allows for effective ground fighting, which is a real life thing. Balance wise, it's more investment for less return than a come and get me barbarian.

I don't have a problem with this.

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