Arcane Bond and Prestige Classes


Rules Questions


When choosing the Arcane Bond class feature, many automatically go with familiar for the no-risk bonuses. However, I have to wonder if that is optimal for any wizard who multiclasses or decides to enter a prestige class. The familiar ceases to advance, leaving it with low NA and low Int. I have a few questions regarding both options:

(for the following questions, assume a character of Bard 1/ Wizard 5/ Magaambyan Arcanist 2)

Familiar:
1) What ways exist to advance the familiar to HD rather than Wizard level?
2) Do these methods allow for Improved Familiar to be taken?

Bonded Item:
1) Does the concentration check only apply to Wizard spells?
2) Therefore, if parted with a magic wand/ring/etc., can I still cast my Bard spells?

It seems like the Item is better for a multiclass character, as it advances by your spell and caster level, not your wizard level. However, it becomes a liability if it hinders your casting through other classes, making a non-scaling familiar more attractive. Which interpretation is correct? Or, rather, which interpretation is closest to RAW?

EDIT: Additional questions:
1) If I choose a Bard archetype (Magician, Arcane Duelist, etc.) that grants an Arcane Bond, am I required to use that version of the bond regardless of if I meet the level it is granted?
2) Does choosing a Bard archetype that grants an Arcane Bond cause the concentration checks to Bard spells IF the bond is gained through other means, and never through the Bard class?


Familiar

1) What ways exist to advance the familiar to HD rather than Wizard level?

there is a feat Eldritch Heritage take Arcane bloodline and you will got familiar with progress your character lvl -2

2) yes


Personally I love the bonded item, yea it's got a risk with it but having the ability to cast any spell from your spell book with out having to prepare it gives me an emergency button for if I really need that one spell I didn't prepare today


Ok, so Improved Familiar is an option. That's nice to know. At this point, though, I'm VERY interested in the answers to the questions about Bonded Items. There's not a terribly great amount of information on them, and the ability overall seems poorly worded for characters that break the PF norm of "single-class all the way."


darkerthought7 wrote:

Familiar:

1) What ways exist to advance the familiar to HD rather than Wizard level?
2) Do these methods allow for Improved Familiar to be taken?

I don't know of any such methods for a Wizards. Druids can use Boon Companion to make up for 4 levels of multi-classing.

darkerthought7 wrote:

Bonded Item:

1) Does the concentration check only apply to Wizard spells?
2) Therefore, if parted with a magic wand/ring/etc., can I still cast my Bard spells?

If lost, each Bonded Item only affects concentration checks for the spell slots associated with that class. In the same way, a Bonded Item gained as a Wizard ability would not enable you to cast an extra Bard spell. If you advanced your Wizard spellcasting through a Prestige Class, then spells cast through those spell slots would be affected by losing your Wizard Bonded Item.

darkerthought7 wrote:

EDIT: Additional questions:

1) If I choose a Bard archetype (Magician, Arcane Duelist, etc.) that grants an Arcane Bond, am I required to use that version of the bond regardless of if I meet the level it is granted?
2) Does choosing a Bard archetype that grants an Arcane Bond cause the concentration checks to Bard spells IF the bond is gained through other means, and never through the Bard class?

Each class would grant a Bond that was entirely independent of the other. So you might have a ring as a Wizard, and a Rapier as an Arcane Duelist. The ring would grant you an extra Wizard spell each day, and the rapier would do the same for a Bard spell. If the two classes allowed the same type of Item, then you could have two independent Bonds with the same item. In this example, you could Bond with the rapier for both classes.


Gisher wrote:
darkerthought7 wrote:

Familiar:

1) What ways exist to advance the familiar to HD rather than Wizard level?
2) Do these methods allow for Improved Familiar to be taken?

I don't know of any such methods for a Wizards. Druids can use Boon Companion to make up for 4 levels of multi-classing.

darkerthought7 wrote:

Bonded Item:

1) Does the concentration check only apply to Wizard spells?
2) Therefore, if parted with a magic wand/ring/etc., can I still cast my Bard spells?

If lost, each Bonded Item only affects concentration checks for the spell slots associated with that class. In the same way, a Bonded Item gained as a Wizard ability would not enable you to cast an extra Bard spell. If you advanced your Wizard spellcasting through a Prestige Class, then spells cast through those spell slots would be affected by losing your Wizard Bonded Item.

darkerthought7 wrote:

EDIT: Additional questions:

1) If I choose a Bard archetype (Magician, Arcane Duelist, etc.) that grants an Arcane Bond, am I required to use that version of the bond regardless of if I meet the level it is granted?
2) Does choosing a Bard archetype that grants an Arcane Bond cause the concentration checks to Bard spells IF the bond is gained through other means, and never through the Bard class?
Each class would grant a Bonded Item that was entirely independent of the other. So you might have a ring as a Wizard, and a Rapier as an Arcane Duelist. The ring would grant you an extra Wizard spell each day, and the rapier would do the same for a Bard spell.

I posted this on Reddit as well to open up my possible answers. They had this to quote:

"General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class."

It comes from an FAQ, so it counts, sadly.

As for the next part of your post, you CANNOT have more than one Arcane Bond. Period. They made sure of that through various errata and the wording of many of the abilities. Anything left over simply hasn't been updated. However, anything that grants a Bond adds to the level of the Bond (so Arcane Bloodline levels stack with Witch levels for the familiar's stats, etc.).


well you can't have 2 Arcane bond items sooo i would say whichever you got first (in this case Wizard) you must use rules related to that class you'r arcane bond belong


darkerthought7 wrote:

I posted this on Reddit as well to open up my possible answers. They had this to quote:

"General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class."

It comes from an FAQ, so it counts, sadly.

The FAQ in question was addressing the unusual language of the Bloodline Arcana which say things like "Whenever you cast a spell..." Because they specify the character rather than the class, they apply to any spell cast by that character. The Arcane Bond does specify a class when it says "If a wizard attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand..." So I don't think it is true that loss of a bonded object affects spells cast from other classes.

darkerthought7 wrote:
As for the next part of your post, you CANNOT have more than one Arcane Bond. Period. They made sure of that through various errata and the wording of many of the abilities. Anything left over simply hasn't been updated. However, anything that grants a Bond adds to the level of the Bond (so Arcane Bloodline levels stack with Witch levels for the familiar's stats, etc.).

It is true that you stack your levels together for Familiars, so you can't have more then one Familiar. But Bonded Items aren't Familiars. Please cite these rules that prevent you from having more than one Bonded Item. They would clear up questions from a number of other threads on this topic.


PłentaX wrote:
well you can't have 2 Arcane bond items sooo i would say whichever you got first (in this case Wizard) you must use rules related to that class you'r arcane bond belong

Please cite the rules that prevent you from having two different Bonded Items from two different classes.


darkerthought7 wrote:

When choosing the Arcane Bond class feature, many automatically go with familiar for the no-risk bonuses. However, I have to wonder if that is optimal for any wizard who multiclasses or decides to enter a prestige class. The familiar ceases to advance, leaving it with low NA and low Int. I have a few questions regarding both options:

(for the following questions, assume a character of Bard 1/ Wizard 5/ Magaambyan Arcanist 2)

Familiar:
1) What ways exist to advance the familiar to HD rather than Wizard level?
2) Do these methods allow for Improved Familiar to be taken?

Bonded Item:
1) Does the concentration check only apply to Wizard spells?
2) Therefore, if parted with a magic wand/ring/etc., can I still cast my Bard spells?

It seems like the Item is better for a multiclass character, as it advances by your spell and caster level, not your wizard level. However, it becomes a liability if it hinders your casting through other classes, making a non-scaling familiar more attractive. Which interpretation is correct? Or, rather, which interpretation is closest to RAW?

EDIT: Additional questions:
1) If I choose a Bard archetype (Magician, Arcane Duelist, etc.) that grants an Arcane Bond, am I required to use that version of the bond regardless of if I meet the level it is granted?
2) Does choosing a Bard archetype that grants an Arcane Bond cause the concentration checks to Bard spells IF the bond is gained through other means, and never through the Bard class?

I have flagged your duplicate thread in the Advice Forum to be merged with this one.


Gisher wrote:
darkerthought7 wrote:

I posted this on Reddit as well to open up my possible answers. They had this to quote:

"General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class."

It comes from an FAQ, so it counts, sadly.

The FAQ in question was addressing the unusual language of the Bloodline Arcana which say things like "Whenever you cast a spell..." Because they specify the character rather than the class, they apply to any spell cast by that character. The Arcane Bond does specify a class when it says "If a wizard attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand..." So I don't think it is true that loss of a bonded object affects spells cast from other classes.

darkerthought7 wrote:
As for the next part of your post, you CANNOT have more than one Arcane Bond. Period. They made sure of that through various errata and the wording of many of the abilities. Anything left over simply hasn't been updated. However, anything that grants a Bond adds to the level of the Bond (so Arcane Bloodline levels stack with Witch levels for the familiar's stats, etc.).
It is true that you stack your levels together for Familiars, so you can't have more then one Familiar. But Bonded Items aren't Familiars. Please cite these rules that prevent you from having more than one Bonded Item. They would clear up questions from a number of other threads on this topic.

(I hate doing the editing to split up a post with quotes-within-quotes)

When it says "a wizard," the character is considered "a wizard" by taking any levels in the wizard class. It does not say "If a wizard attempts to cast a wizard spell..." It simply mentions spell-casting in general. If you look at the language for, say, the magus: what spells spell combat can be used for are explicit, with an exception possible through an arcana. This... isn't so clear. While the FAQ listed is specific to a sorcerer ability, it is listed as a general ruling.

As for the multiple bond thing, you may be right, RAW. I'd reference the Channel Energy from Multiple Sources ruling to argue from your side. However, the familiar rules do not allow for multiple familiars for sure.

Familiars wrote:
Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level.

It could also be argued that this ruling specific to familiars is intended to apply broadly to the Arcane Bond feature. Times that I wish the Devs would answer some of these corner cases...


i can give you only this

Stacking :
Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.

IMHO 2 arcana bond items can't stack

and 2 links about this topic

Link

Link


I have no idea what you are talking about PlentaX. I never suggested that Bonded Items would 'stack.' I'm not sure what that would even mean for such an ability.


and i have no idea why you can't check 2 links i posted above about 2 arcana bond items

i dont think theres 100% raw that allows or disallows this

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