Courageous Weapon + Heroic Echo + Rage?


Rules Questions


So, it's an established combo that Courageous (and Furious) weapons play well with barbarian Rage. I'm curious, though, about it's interaction with the Imperious sorcerer bloodline's Heroic Echo ability.

For reference, Courageous reads "This special ability can only be added to a melee weapon. A courageous weapon fortifies the wielder’s courage and morale in battle. The wielder gains a morale bonus on saving throws against fear equal to the weapon’s enhancement bonus. In addition, any morale bonus the wielder gains from any other source is increased by half the weapon’s enhancement bonus (minimum 1)."

Furious reads "This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons. A furious weapon serves as a focus for its wielder’s anger. When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, the weapon’s enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal. If the wielder has a rage power that gives a skill bonus while raging (such as raging climber, raging leaper, or raging swimmer), the wielder gains an enhancement bonus to that skill whenever the weapon is wielded or held in her hand, even when she is not raging. This bonus is equal to the enhancement bonus of the weapon (and also includes the +2 if the wielder is raging)."

And Heroic Echo reads "At 3rd level, when you receive a morale bonus from any spell, spell-like ability, or magic item, including those you cast on yourself, that bonus increases by +1. At 9th level, this ability also applies to competence bonuses. If you receive a morale effect (or a competence effect at 9th level) that affects an area or multiple targets, as an immediate action you can share your increased bonus with all other recipients. This increase to other participants lasts a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus. You can use this ability once per day, plus one time per three levels after 3rd."

What I'm already aware of is that a barbarian wielding, say, a +2 Furious Courageous weapon would bump it up to a +4 while raging, and Courageous would bump the morale bonus of the rage up by 2 (half the enhancement bonus of the weapon)

What I'm unsure of is how that interacts with Heroic Echo. Normally, Heroic Echo only applies to bonuses granted by spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items. The barbarian rage ability is supernatural, so no interaction with Heroic Echo there.

But does the improvement on the rage from Courageous count as originating from a magic item, and thus interact with Heroic Echo? Would the raging character with the +2 Furious Courageous weapon and the Heroic Echo ability gain a +3 to Strength (+2 from Courageous, bumped up by 1 more from Heroic Echo)?

Not that +1 Strength really means a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, I'm just not sure if it works.


Courageous got nerfed.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Yeah, over a year ago.

As for Heroic Echo and Rage? Hmm, good question.

I'd say it wouldn't gain anything from Furious since the bonuses it gives are Enhancement.

As for Courageous? Eh, I'm gonna say no at this moment since the morale bonus being boosted doesn't meet the criteria.

Not a steadfast opinion though, I'd be interested to see what others think.


I believe heroic echo should trigger from courageous. A courageous weapon states the "wielder gains a morale bonus on saving throws against fear equal to the weapon’s enhancement bonus". This is defiantly a morale bonus granted by an item.

Heroic echo says "when you receive a morale bonus from any spell, spell-like ability, or magic item, including those you cast on yourself, that bonus increases by +1".

Magic item grants morale bonus, +1 to the morale bonus.

The furious weapon property does not specify morale bonuses anywhere, only enhancement. Therefore there is no furious/heroic echo interaction.

A barbarians rage is an extraordinary ability, and therefore doesn't interact with heroic echo.

Bloodrager's bloodrage is SU so doesn't apply either.

At least in my mind.

Hope I was helpful

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Derp, that sound right J4r, I read the Furious description twice and missed the one Courageous despite linking the relevant FaQ >_<

I just woke up :3


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No problem Rysky. You are normally on point with your rules arguments when I spot you on the boards, which is often :p.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Daww, thankies ^w^

Same to you.


I am just thinking. There are spells that provide the rage effects aren't there?
Those would apply heroic echo.

I'm thinking why they excluded class abilities from having it apply. Probably just too powerful

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

*nods*

the rage spell would indeed be very scary when used this way.

Of course you can Laways play a Bloodrager (Id Rager- tap into Pride Focus) and VMC into Cavalier and take Order of the Flame for all kinds of obscene fun!


My class knowledge is poor. Why would those be good?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

One of the Pride Focus abilities doubles any morale bonus you have. Order of the Flame gives you a stacking damage and attack morale bonus for every enemy you drop at the expense of your AC, but as a Rager that's probably not that high on your list of stuff.

The caveat is if you fail a single check while the bonus from Pride is effect those bonues become penalties.

However with the Id Rager you can simply drop your rage and the effect ends, or if your 14 level you can switch your focus once per day so have another as your main and then switch to Pride at the beginning of the day. Once something goes wrong your can spend a move action to switch it back.

VERY high risk, high reward.


Note, that pride isn't currently one of the available emotional foci allowed for the Id rager. Something to do with set lists and pride not being on it since it's newer.
So officially not an option. With home game, maybe you can convince your GM.

*I really wish that they did better at expanding these "set" lists.


Menacing Shade of mauve wrote:
Courageous got nerfed.

I suppose that's what I get for not checking every FAQ and building most of my characters off online resources with sketchy updates to things like that. Ah well, so much for the morale-stacking Bloodrager.

Heroic Echo might still be useful, at least.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:

Note, that pride isn't currently one of the available emotional foci allowed for the Id rager. Something to do with set lists and pride not being on it since it's newer.

So officially not an option. With home game, maybe you can convince your GM.

*I really wish that they did better at expanding these "set" lists.

Technically yes but then they only allowed "certain" ones.

The "certain" ones being all of the Foci out at the time -_-

I agree wholeheartedly about expanding or leaving open these lists too.

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