Cleveland RNC 2016


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
What if Donald Trump...

I think it's more likely that Donald trump just figured out how to get the +5 bonus to his bluff check by telling people what they want to believe.

Sovereign Court

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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:


That's always the problem in modern politics. One side's 'load of bunk' is the other's observed reality. cf. Great Depression, New Deal, WWII
You mean how the New Deal extended the recovery from The Great Depression drastically relative to every other economic recovery

Only if the word "extended" means "made the recovery happen more quickly and powerfully."

You can see that here, a chart which covers the period immediately previous to the Great Depression (1925-9), the actual Depression (1929-32) and the New Deal recovery afterwards.

Look at the graph closer. The average income was already on the upswing by the beginning of 1933. The New Deal didn't kick in until midway through 1933. The New Deal had nothing to do with the start of the recovery. It just made it take longer.

And of course the US was hit hardest by the great depression initially. The more capitalistic a country is, the harder recessions hit them to start, and the faster they recover. (Plus The Dust Bowl was a major factor to kick off The Great Depression in the US which wasn't really an economic factor - it was more like a natural disaster.)


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I really liked Chris Cristie's witch trial for Hillary. There is just something about a large mob of lunatics chanting "Guilty! Guilty! Guilty!" that makes me feel good about democracy.


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Pillbug Toenibbler wrote:
I guess someone didn't tell Meliana's speechwriter he was supposed to fall on the sword.

A scapegoat tribute has volunteered.

Maybe now the press could actually move on to covering the rotting diseased carcass of sexism, racism, bigotry, fear, and bilious anger of the first two days? No, I'm not holding my breath for it either.

After his Day 1 15-Minute Hate, I am still half-expecting an announcement that Giuliani has been admitted for treatment for addiction to bath salts or drain cleaner or something.


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Fergie wrote:
I really liked Chris Cristie's witch trial for Hillary. There is just something about a large mob of lunatics chanting "Guilty! Guilty! Guilty!" that makes me feel good about democracy.

At least if it had been Cruz, he's a big enough pop culture nerd to have put a Inspector Kemp spin on it.


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From the New Republic

Quote:
But the power of the images is actually much deeper. They don’t just negate something central to Trump’s appeal. They amplify one (actually more than one) of the main knocks on Trump himself: That he’s sloppy, erratic, in so many ways the opposite of the virtues he claims to embody. And, let’s not gloss over it, this is a depiction of a campaign—a campaign that nurtures white grievance and resentment—trying to profit off the work of a black woman, from an African American family that Trump and his supporters regularly belittle. The fact that the plagiarized text in question was about the value of hard work just makes matters worse. A mortifying, calamitous, self-immolating moment.

For me that sums up why this matters.

But yeah, it would be nice if the press could actually cover this whole spectacle as something other than politics as usual. Cause it really isn't. And treating it that way just legitimizes and normalizes it. Making the Two-Minute Hate (3 hour hate?) into normal politics isn't a good thing.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
What if Donald Trump...
I think it's more likely that Donald trump just figured out how to get the +5 bonus to his bluff check by telling people what they want to believe.

Or he's firmly settled on the 'telling some of the people what they want to hear all of the time' camp versus the 'telling all of the people what they want some of the time' camp.

Not really a big surprise, given his shady business background.


Well, that could have been much easier. But at least they owned up, so credit where credit is due.


bugleyman wrote:

Well, that could have been much easier. But at least they owned up, so credit where credit is due.

Really?

Sovereign Court

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Looks like tonight is "Make America first again". Ohh and conservative talking head Laura Ingraham will be there. Wonder if she will tell us again how she would rather BM herself then use a bathroom with a transgender person in it?


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Pan wrote:
Looks like tonight is "Make America first again". Ohh and conservative talking head Laura Ingraham will be there. Wonder if she will tell us again how she would rather BM herself then use a bathroom with a transgender person in it?

Don't worry, it's still "email, Benghazi, evil Hillary" night. With a big dose of hate and fear.

But you're right. There may be a bit of "hate and fear the transpeople in your bathroom" along with the usual "hate and fear the muslims and mexicans and blacks".

Liberty's Edge

I can't remeber the last few, but isn't there usually a little more "this is how great our guy is" to go with the "the other guy is the devil incarate"?


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Fergie wrote:
I really liked Chris Cristie's witch trial for Hillary. There is just something about a large mob of lunatics chanting "Guilty! Guilty! Guilty!" that makes me feel good about democracy.

Sadly, all I could think about watching that was whether it would sound any different if the crowd were filled with holdout Sanders supporters...


Krensky wrote:
I can't remeber the last few, but isn't there usually a little more "this is how great our guy is" to go with the "the other guy is the devil incarate"?

Yes. You can expect a lot more celebration of the nominee (and VP pick) at the DNC next week. There will still be plenty of (very well-supported) Trump bashing, I'm sure, but I expect for the most part it will be a lot more genuinely enthusiastic and optimistic, and less hateful and bitter than what we've been seeing over the last couple of days.


Scott Betts wrote:
Fergie wrote:
I really liked Chris Cristie's witch trial for Hillary. There is just something about a large mob of lunatics chanting "Guilty! Guilty! Guilty!" that makes me feel good about democracy.
Sadly, all I could think about watching that was whether it would sound any different if the crowd were filled with holdout Sanders supporters...

With the remaining holdouts, possibly.

With the majority of people who supported Sanders in the primary, not a chance.


Gisher wrote:
bugleyman wrote:

Well, that could have been much easier. But at least they owned up, so credit where credit is due.

Really?

Yes, really. Or would you prefer Trump had continued in insult our intelligence with (this particular) bald-faced lie? :P


bugleyman wrote:
Gisher wrote:
bugleyman wrote:

Well, that could have been much easier. But at least they owned up, so credit where credit is due.

Really?
Yes, really. Or would you prefer Trump had continued in insult our intelligence with (this particular) bald-faced lie? :P

They spent three days denying that the obvious plagiarism had occurred, calling the media crazy for stating the obvious, and then falsely accusing the Clinton campaign of creating the entire controversy. To my knowledge the Trump campaign hasn't actually referred to this as plagiarism and hasn't apologized to Michelle Obama, the media, the Clinton campaign, or the American people. Credit is not yet due.


Gisher wrote:
They spent three days denying that the obvious plagiarism had occurred, calling the media crazy for stating the obvious, and then falsely accusing the Clinton campaign of creating the entire controversy. To my knowledge the Trump campaign hasn't actually referred to this as plagiarism and hasn't apologized to Michelle Obama, the media, the Clinton campaign, or the American people. Credit is not yet due.

Hey, I didn't say it was a LOT of credit. You appear to have much, much higher expectations of this man than I do. :)


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bugleyman wrote:
Gisher wrote:
They spent three days denying that the obvious plagiarism had occurred, calling the media crazy for stating the obvious, and then falsely accusing the Clinton campaign of creating the entire controversy. To my knowledge the Trump campaign hasn't actually referred to this as plagiarism and hasn't apologized to Michelle Obama, the media, the Clinton campaign, or the American people. Credit is not yet due.
Hey, I didn't say it was a LOT of credit. You appear to have much, much higher expectations of this man than I do. :)

Trump only claimed to be a master of manipulating debt; I don't think he understands credit. ;)


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Credit is the thing he takes for risking other people's money, duh.


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Trump understands very little, including the fact that he was born on third base (if not directly on home plate).

...or maybe he does, and he's a cynical evil genius. However, if that is the case I have no idea why he wants to be president.


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Michael Steele: Hillary Clinton is "absolutely qualified" to be president.


bugleyman wrote:
Trump understands very little, including the fact that he was born on third base (if not directly on home plate).

It was home plate. VS just turning the company over into stocks it hasn't made a whole lot of money since his dad gave it to him.

...or maybe he does, and he's a cynical evil genius. However, if that is the case I have no idea why he wants to be president.

His ego is roughly the size of a barge?


Gisher wrote:
They spent three days denying that the obvious plagiarism had occurred, calling the media crazy for stating the obvious, and then falsely accusing the Clinton campaign of creating the entire controversy. To my knowledge the Trump campaign hasn't actually referred to this as plagiarism and hasn't apologized to Michelle Obama, the media, the Clinton campaign, or the American people. Credit is not yet due.

Well, that's his strategy, isn't it? Never, ever accept blame or admit fault, because the moment you blink, you lose?


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137ben wrote:
Michael Steele: Hillary Clinton is "absolutely qualified" to be president.

My immediate reaction is to ask why the republicans aren't nominating nominating Micheal Steele. At least in that interview, he comes off as a rational, articulate, and respectful man. In other words, the opposite of Donald Trump.


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bugleyman wrote:
137ben wrote:
Michael Steele: Hillary Clinton is "absolutely qualified" to be president.
My immediate reaction is to ask why the republicans aren't nominating nominating Micheal Steele. At least in that interview, he comes off as a rational, articulate, and respectful man. In other words, the oppose of Donald Trump.

Because they can't. The base doesn't want rational, articulate and especially respectful.

They're mad as hell and they're not going to take it anymore and they want someone who feels the same way and they don't particularly care where he leads them as long as someone gets hurt.


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Yeah, it's not a happy time to be a conservative in America (or just about anywhere, for that matter). If you put yourself in their shoes, things are pretty bleak and have been for a while. The world at large doesn't put up with them and their beliefs anymore. Where they were once at least tolerated, they're shamed and marginalized instead. I'm sure they feel like their zone of comfort is rapidly shrinking around them, and I'm sure that's scary as hell to a lot of conservatives.

None of this is to say they don't deserve the experience they're going through. They absolutely do deserve it. But it's easy to understand why they're angry, why they're frustrated, why they feel like nothing is going their way, and why they want someone capable of throwing a punch in their name, even if it's just punching a metaphorical wall.


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Scott Betts wrote:

Yeah, it's not a happy time to be a conservative in America (or just about anywhere, for that matter). If you put yourself in their shoes, things are pretty bleak and have been for a while. The world at large doesn't put up with them and their beliefs anymore. Where they were once at least tolerated, they're shamed and marginalized instead. I'm sure they feel like their zone of comfort is rapidly shrinking around them, and I'm sure that's scary as hell to a lot of conservatives.

None of this is to say they don't deserve the experience they're going through. They absolutely do deserve it. But it's easy to understand why they're angry, why they're frustrated, why they feel like nothing is going their way, and why they want someone capable of throwing a punch in their name, even if it's just punching a metaphorical wall.

They're also being constantly lied to by their media and politicians, feeding that anger for their own purposes.

There are reasons to be angry and a similar anger can be seen on the left as well - Sander's campaign and Occupy and, in another context, Black Lives Matter. But there the anger is mostly better directed. On the right, it's all about scapegoats - you're worse off and it's all because of the lazy blacks living off your tax money and the illegals taking your jobs and the gays doing something or other.


Scott Betts wrote:

Yeah, it's not a happy time to be a conservative in America (or just about anywhere, for that matter). If you put yourself in their shoes, things are pretty bleak and have been for a while. The world at large doesn't put up with them and their beliefs anymore. Where they were once at least tolerated, they're shamed and marginalized instead. I'm sure they feel like their zone of comfort is rapidly shrinking around them, and I'm sure that's scary as hell to a lot of conservatives.

None of this is to say they don't deserve the experience they're going through. They absolutely do deserve it. But it's easy to understand why they're angry, why they're frustrated, why they feel like nothing is going their way, and why they want someone capable of throwing a punch in their name, even if it's just punching a metaphorical wall.

I wish I shared your apparent optimism about the strength of that wall. ;-)


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bugleyman wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:

Yeah, it's not a happy time to be a conservative in America (or just about anywhere, for that matter). If you put yourself in their shoes, things are pretty bleak and have been for a while. The world at large doesn't put up with them and their beliefs anymore. Where they were once at least tolerated, they're shamed and marginalized instead. I'm sure they feel like their zone of comfort is rapidly shrinking around them, and I'm sure that's scary as hell to a lot of conservatives.

None of this is to say they don't deserve the experience they're going through. They absolutely do deserve it. But it's easy to understand why they're angry, why they're frustrated, why they feel like nothing is going their way, and why they want someone capable of throwing a punch in their name, even if it's just punching a metaphorical wall.

I wish I shared your apparent optimism about the strength of that wall. ;-)

You know how to feel better about that wall? Get Mexico to pay for it.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
His ego is roughly the size of a barge?

I think Trump's ego is a katamari. What's the upper limit on how big one of those can get?


thunderspirit wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
...But it's easy to understand why they're angry, why they're frustrated, why they feel like nothing is going their way, and why they want someone capable of throwing a punch in their name, even if it's just punching a metaphorical wall.
I wish I shared your apparent optimism about the strength of that wall. ;-)
You know how to feel better about that wall? Get Mexico to pay for it.

Praise Jesus ;)


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thejeff wrote:
On the right, it's all about scapegoats - you're worse off and it's all because of the lazy blacks living off your tax money and the illegals taking your jobs and the gays doing something or other.

LOL. The racism and xenophobia I "understand." But what DO people imagine homosexuals have to do with their economic marginalization?


Ah, but who PAID for that wall? :P


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Have we talked about how we just might be getting Shadow-President Mike Pence?

Frankly, Pence actually scares me more than Trump ever did. Trump is an attention-grabbing bully with no political finesse. Pence is a bigoted bully with a smidgen of political finesse. I think certain members of the GOP are actually aiming to sneak Pence by us, so to speak. He's the sort of social conservative that doesn't have a prayer of being elected anymore.

Either they'll impeach Trump, let him be a figurehead, or force him to cooperate with their goals (especially the LGBTAIQ stuff, which we all know Trump doesn't give two matchsticks about). Regardless of what happens to Pence, this is their last desperate stab at making the great Southern Strategy worth what it's cost them for a few more years.

It's a rough, rough time to be a Log Cabin Republican.

Liberty's Edge

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Highly tangental, but I find it hilarious that my "Eisenhower Republican" father has apparently gone full on market socialist with a touch of mutualism.


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bugleyman wrote:
thejeff wrote:
On the right, it's all about scapegoats - you're worse off and it's all because of the lazy blacks living off your tax money and the illegals taking your jobs and the gays doing something or other.
LOL. The racism and xenophobia I "understand." But what DO people imagine homosexuals have to do with their economic marginalization?

With economic marginalization? Not much really. But it's all part of the general "it's not my world anymore", "back to the good old days when men were men and everyone else knew their place".

It's not like it's really coherent or based on any kind of logical analysis. It's free-floating rage and it's easy to aim it somewhere useful.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Have we talked about how we just might be getting Shadow-President Mike Pence?

Frankly, Pence actually scares me more than Trump ever did. Trump is an attention-grabbing bully with no political finesse. Pence is a bigoted bully with a smidgen of political finesse. I think certain members of the GOP are actually aiming to sneak Pence by us, so to speak. He's the sort of social conservative that doesn't have a prayer of being elected anymore.

Either they'll impeach Trump, let him be a figurehead, or force him to cooperate with their goals (especially the LGBTAIQ stuff, which we all know Trump doesn't give two matchsticks about). Regardless of what happens to Pence, this is their last desperate stab at making the great Southern Strategy worth what it's cost them for a few more years.

It's a rough, rough time to be a Log Cabin Republican.

It's likely to happen. Sort of. Trump's apparently kind of the hands-off big picture kind of boss. Wants to make the big deals and get the credit, but not do the gritty day-to-day work. I expect he'd want to set goals and make Pence execute them. Which isn't at all how the job works.

I expect it would backfire horribly on him - either by not getting anything done because the people he needs to accomplish anything won't listen to Pence or by Pence basically seizing the reins while Trumps messes around. It's scary because it really can't work that way. There's far too much a President can't delegate.

On the side note, I've got no sympathy for Log Cabin Republicans. They've made their bed. Let them lie in it. It's not like this has snuck up on them.


I mean, people have certainly tried to link the two. There was a guy recently (UK, I think) who tried to dismiss a man's economic predictions because the man was gay and "couldn't have kids".


thejeff wrote:


On the side note, I've got no sympathy for Log Cabin Republicans. They've made their bed. Let them lie in it. It's not like this has snuck up on them.

The people hated Obama so much, they endorsed Romney. Romney. The Log Cabin has come to be made of twigs, and I doubt that it's big enough at this point for Lincoln himself to fit inside.

Sovereign Court

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thejeff wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
137ben wrote:
Michael Steele: Hillary Clinton is "absolutely qualified" to be president.
My immediate reaction is to ask why the republicans aren't nominating nominating Micheal Steele. At least in that interview, he comes off as a rational, articulate, and respectful man. In other words, the oppose of Donald Trump.

Because they can't. The base doesn't want rational, articulate and especially respectful.

They're mad as hell and they're not going to take it anymore and they want someone who feels the same way and they don't particularly care where he leads them as long as someone gets hurt.

Sadly this. Steele always seemed reasonable but he was always shut down for not being "conservative" enough.


Ooh, Rick Scott tonight! He's always fun in front of the camera.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Ooh, Rick Scott tonight! He's always fun in front of the camera.

There's a 50/50 chance his anti-Clinton comments tonight will just be recycled rants he previously made about He-Man or Prince Adam.


Pillbug Toenibbler wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Ooh, Rick Scott tonight! He's always fun in front of the camera.
There's a 50/50 chance his anti-Clinton comments tonight will just be recycled rants he previously made about He-Man or Prince Adam.

I don't think hillary's ever been in a shirt that pink.

Sovereign Court

Minor rant here about PBS coverage; So I am really curious what people of color have to say about Trump. They have Darrel Scott on stage and completely cut him off for their talking heads....They even complained about how loud Scott and the crowd was being.....ugh

(Id be on Cspan but the old lady doesnt have cable)

Liberty's Edge

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The continuing lies of Ted Cruz:

1. The Republican party was not founded to end slavery. Lincoln's original plan was not to force an end to slavery. The Free Soil Party WAS founded to end slavery, as any high school sophomore can tell you.

2. The Republicans were not responsible for ending Jim Crow. Upon the signing of the Civil Rights Act, President Johnson remarked "we just gave the South to the Republicans." Since then, Republicans have worked to systematically destroy parts of the Voting Rights Act.


I mean, Johnson said that because he knew he was signing away the Democrats' formerly iron grip on the racist vote, but yeah, Cruz and Trump make quite a pair.

Liberty's Edge

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I mean, Johnson said that because he knew he was signing away the Democrats' formerly iron grip on the racist vote, but yeah, Cruz and Trump make quite a pair.

Huh. The more you know.


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It's important to remember how much Johnson and (primarily) Nixon changed the party dynamic. Before the Southern Strategy, the Republicans were the closest thing we had to good guys—a party with a spotty record on social justice, as opposed to an outright dreadful one. Then Nixon worked out how to dogwhistle like a pro and everything flipped. These days, the Democrats are the ones being pressed to be more courageous and proactive about civil rights, while Republicans like Cruz just try to hold onto the bigots Nixon earned them and alienate basically everyone else in their party in the process.

It's worth remembering just how little a party affiliation can mean if you skip ahead a few years. The meanings of "Republican" and "Democrat" are about as consistent as the meaning of "literally"—more-or-less reliable, but you have to watch out for big shifts.

I've been thinkpiecing to myself a lot lately, in case you can't tell. Now let me tell you about the use of symbolism in Portal 2...

Liberty's Edge

I'd love to hear that in another thread, KC.

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