Ever see someone use Silver Blunt Arrows?


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

I had someone tell me that archer types in PFS use silver blunt arrows to avoid the -1 damage for alchemical silver on sharp things.

The Advanced Player's Guide wrote:
Arrow, Blunt: These arrows have rounded wooden tips.
Ultimate Equipment wrote:
The alchemical silvering process can’t be applied to nonmetal items, and it doesn’t work on rare metals such as adamantine, cold iron, and mithral.

Doesn't that mean, essentially, he has seen a lot of people "Doing it Wrong"?


Wood isn't metal.

Magneto told the fantastic 4 that.

Dark Archive

Like Cavall said, you can't apply alchemical silver to blunt arrows. Why? Because the blunt arrows are made of wood. The 'tip' is wood. There's no metal to apply the alchemical silvering process to. As such, I'd say whoever told you that is probably blowing smoke up your rear.

As a side note, why would you be trying to apply alchemical silvering to mithral?! Mithral is ALREADY a magic silver.

Liberty's Edge

That, Kahel, is the entire reason I didn't end the quote at the comma. I was so amused that they specifically felt the need to make a rule that says you can't put silver on mithral.

Dark Archive

If someone really wanted to try that Askdal, I'd be soo tempted to allow them. After all, the only 'benefit' to alchemic silvering a mithral weapon would be... getting -1 damage.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Askdal Aleheart wrote:


Doesn't that mean, essentially, he has seen a lot of people "Doing it Wrong"?

He might have meant silver weapon blanch. Which is slightly cheaper, has no drawbacks, and is sourced from the same book as the blunt arrow.

Dark Archive

And is also not legal in Core, then again neither are blunt arrows.

But yeah, weapon BLANCHES are legal in PFS standard. They last until the weapon connects the next time, and one use of a blanch can cover a bunch of arrows. So they're kinda best used on arrows anyway. There's silver blanch, ghost touch blanch, and I'm sure a few other ones. But again, unlike alchemical silvering, a blanch only lasts until the weapon hits something next. So putting a silver blanch on a normal longsword, it counts as silver for one attack. Put it arrows though (may be wrong here on number), and you have 50 silver projectiles. Again, I may easily be misremembering how many arrows a single blanch use will coat.

Dark Archive

Also, doesn't the -1 damage from alchemical silvering apply to any weapon due to the metal being softer now, and not just sharpened ones? Hang on, double checking. Here's the full text of the info, found on page 155 of the core rule book.

Quote:

Silver, Alchemical: A complex process involving

metallurgy and alchemy can bond silver to a weapon
made of steel so that it bypasses the damage reduction of
creatures such as lycanthropes.
On a successful attack with a silvered slashing or
piercing weapon, the wielder takes a –1 penalty on the
damage roll (with a minimum of 1 point of damage).
The alchemical silvering process can’t be applied to
nonmetal items, and it doesn’t work on rare metals such
as adamantine, cold iron, and mithral.
Alchemical silver has 10 hit points per inch of thickness
and hardness 8.

Used on a weapon made of steel, which again means a blunt arrow is out the window since it's tip is made of wood. It then says the -1 damage applies to slashing and piercing weapons. Which kind of implies an alchemical silver warhammer wouldn't suffer that penalty. If you treated your arrow heads (which would be legal) however they would suffer the -1 damage.

What really gets me about that description is that it calls out specifically that alchemical silvering can't be applied to mithral. Which is already a type of magic silver. But this means that at some point enough people were trying to apply alchemical silver to mithral weapons that it needed to be ruled as not possible.

Liberty's Edge

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My dash 1 is a Dwarf Cleric of Cayden Cailean with a masterwork silver warhammer named Mr. Shiney. I'm going to get "him" enchanted someday.


Kahel Stormbender wrote:

And is also not legal in Core, then again neither are blunt arrows.

But yeah, weapon BLANCHES are legal in PFS standard. They last until the weapon connects the next time, and one use of a blanch can cover a bunch of arrows. So they're kinda best used on arrows anyway. There's silver blanch, ghost touch blanch, and I'm sure a few other ones. But again, unlike alchemical silvering, a blanch only lasts until the weapon hits something next. So putting a silver blanch on a normal longsword, it counts as silver for one attack. Put it arrows though (may be wrong here on number), and you have 50 silver projectiles. Again, I may easily be misremembering how many arrows a single blanch use will coat.

10 arrows per dose. It's a good solution.


Yeah, since arrows are destroyed on a hit anyway, spending money on permanent arrows is a waste now that Abundant Ammunition has been neutered.

Liberty's Edge

It's not really a waste though. Durable adamantine arrows are a great investment, or even just cold iron ones.


I always get cold iron ammo.


Deighton Thrane wrote:
It's not really a waste though. Durable adamantine arrows are a great investment, or even just cold iron ones.

Durable Adamantine arrows: 61 gp apiece.

Adamantine Weapon Blanch: 100 gp
Common arrows: 50 cp apiece

A bundle of 10 Durable Adamantine arrows: 610 gp

A bundle of 10 blanched arrows: 100 gp, 5 sp.

You'd have to fire a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot of Adamantine arrows for that to be anywhere near cost effective. Especially since it's not 100% "durable" since there's a 50% chance they go missing when you miss.

Likewise a Durable Cold Iron Arrow costs 101 gp per arrow, versus 50 gp, 50 cp (1010 per bundle, versus 550).

Not AS BAD of a deal, but still pretty horrible.

Unless I'm missing something?


You don't use cold iron weapon blanch on arrows, you buy cold iron arrows at x2 the cost of normal arrows. So, 20 cold iron arrows cost 2gp. 20 durable cold iron arrows cost 20gp.


Why are cold iron arrows only x2 the cost of normal ones? I thought the general rule was the cost of the material divided by 20?

So 2000 gp divided by 20.


Iron, Cold

Source: PRG:UE

HP/inch 30; Hardness 10; Cost Weapons x2 normal. Add magic enhancement +2,000 gp.

Did you mistake the magic enhancement cost for the material cost?


...Yep. I'm a dumb.

So yeah, price is worth it for Cold Iron.

Still not for Adamantine.


Blunt arrows are for delivering spells. Since they deliver spells without doing damage there would be no point to silvering one.

Some of you are saying Pathfinder doesn't have blunt arrows yet. Maybe when there is a divine archer class.

Dark Archive

No no no Goth Guru, Blunt Arrows aren't legal in PFS Core. That's because the only things legal in PFS Core are in the core rule book. If it's on a specific chronicle, you can buy it in core (provided you own that book). But that's the only way to have non-core items.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Askdal Aleheart wrote:
My dash 1 is a Dwarf Cleric of Cayden Cailean with a masterwork silver warhammer named Mr. Shiney. I'm going to get "him" enchanted someday.

How could you miss an opportunity to call "him" Maxwell?


Goth Guru wrote:

Blunt arrows are for delivering spells. Since they deliver spells without doing damage there would be no point to silvering one.

Some of you are saying Pathfinder doesn't have blunt arrows yet. Maybe when there is a divine archer class.

Blunt arrows are also for bypassing DR/bludgeoning, such as skeletons.

Scarab Sages

Sundakan wrote:

...Yep. I'm a dumb.

So yeah, price is worth it for Cold Iron.

Still not for Adamantine.

Adamantine arrows ignore 20 points of hardness. Adamantine Blanched arrows do not. It's worth keeping at least a few durable Adamantine arrows around.


They ignore 20 points of hardness, but can't be used to cut through anything that would be useful against, so that point is moot.

Scarab Sages

Sundakan wrote:
They ignore 20 points of hardness, but can't be used to cut through anything that would be useful against, so that point is moot.

Play Season 6 of PFS and see if you still feel that way.


Sundakan wrote:
They ignore 20 points of hardness, but can't be used to cut through anything that would be useful against, so that point is moot.

There are creatures with hardness.


Ferious Thune wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
They ignore 20 points of hardness, but can't be used to cut through anything that would be useful against, so that point is moot.
Play Season 6 of PFS and see if you still feel that way.

I'd rather avoid the format like the plague, so no thanks.

Regardless having only "a few" isn't going to save you from a non-stop parade of Constructs anyway, so we're back to you spending 1200 gp per bundle which is a pretty exorbitant price you probably can't afford to pay on a regular basis until you can get Clustered Shots anyway.

You're still losing probably 1/4 of the arrows you're firing just by missing. At that point, why even play an archer?

And that is such a niche scenario in the first place it doesn't speak to the discussion we're having on which is more cost effective for overcoming DR anyway.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Durable arrows aren't destroyed when used.


But they do still have the 50/50 chance of puffing into smoke when you miss.

Scarab Sages

It's not just PFS, and it's not just robots. There's a certain low level module with a notorious creature with hardness.

Spending 1200 gold would be excessive. I'm just pointing out that there are situations where there is a difference between having an actual Adamantine arrow and a blanched one. To say there's no point in having one over the other is not accurate. Yes, it's a situational item. You buy it to be prepared for a situation. In this case, most likely an animated object. I'd say enough Adamantine arrows for one full attack would be fine. So three or four in most cases. Once you have more attacks than that, you can probably just get clustered shot. In the meantime, you get a round of full damage against that hardness 10 creature, and that's worth at least the price of a level 2 potion or a single +2 arrow. If you are playing Iron Gods or Season 6 or something where you expect to encounter robots often, then you may want to carry more.

I think you should also keep at least 10 Adamantine blanched arrows, to use when you only need to overcome DR. Those plus the Adamantine arrows would give you 3 or 4 rounds full attacking at lower levels. And keep 10 ghost salt blanched. And your base arrows should be cold iron. And probably 20 blunt. And maybe some silver blanched arrows for good measure. All of these are situational items. If the point is to be prepared for as many situations as possible, having some actual Adamantine arrows means you're prepared for more situations.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Sundakan wrote:
But they do still have the 50/50 chance of puffing into smoke when you miss.

I wouldn't call that a 50% chance, since they can no longer break. 25% I think, since it has a 50% chance to be lost or broken, then you need to determine which it is, so 50% chance to be lost.


Hm, maybe. It sounds reasonable but I'd expect table variance on that account.

Sovereign Court

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
But they do still have the 50/50 chance of puffing into smoke when you miss.
I wouldn't call that a 50% chance, since they can no longer break. 25% I think, since it has a 50% chance to be lost or broken, then you need to determine which it is, so 50% chance to be lost.

Do durable arrows even have a 50% of going missing when you don't hit your target? I know that when you miss with a normal arrow you have a 50% chance of being able to retrieve it, but the 50% of losing it is both the chance of losing it or being destroyed.

Is there a rule for durable arrows not being destroyed on a miss and cutting down the 50%?


"Durable arrows don’t break due to normal use, whether or not they hit their target; unless the arrow goes missing, an archer can retrieve and reuse a durable arrow again and again."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

The GM could well interpret that to mean that the 50% chance remains, but every arrow that cannot be recovered is due to loss rather than breakage. I just don't interpret it that way.

Sovereign Court

Sundakan wrote:
"Durable arrows don’t break due to normal use, whether or not they hit their target; unless the arrow goes missing, an archer can retrieve and reuse a durable arrow again and again."

Right - but

SRD wrote:
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

it never says what portion of that 50% are lost and what portion are destroyed. You seem to be saying that all of them are lost - which is certainly not the case or they wouldn't have mentioned that some are instead destroyed.


I am? I agreed with TOZ that a 25% portion is reasonable. I just wouldn't assume that'd be the same ruling at every table, since it's not explicitly spelled out.

Sovereign Court

From a logical perspective it would vary depending upon where you're fighting. In a dungeon you would likely be able to find virtually all of them, while fighting in a forest or in a river a decent chunk of them would be lost. (normally the dungeon environment would destroy more than the forest)

But actually coming up with official #s would break KISS really hard, so I certainly don't want an official ruling on terrain & lost/destroyed arrows. (I couldn't find one currently.)

So - probably expect table variation, and perhaps terrain variation.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
"Durable arrows don’t break due to normal use, whether or not they hit their target; unless the arrow goes missing, an archer can retrieve and reuse a durable arrow again and again."

Right - but

SRD wrote:
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.
it never says what portion of that 50% are lost and what portion are destroyed. You seem to be saying that all of them are lost - which is certainly not the case or they wouldn't have mentioned that some are instead destroyed.

I see it as a simple case of 'where did you shoot it?'

If you shot it in an open field or the middle of the forest? There's a 50% chance that you cant' find it or it's broken...

If you shoot it into a room with a monster and nothing else... Odds are you didn't LOSE it... it has to be there... But there's still a 50% chance you can't use it again.

The 50% chance should still be consistent unless the storyline states otherwise. If you have an unbreakable arrow that gets shot into a jail cell... You'll get to use it again. If you shoot it and miss the deer... it could well be lost.


Destroyed has a multiple FRPG definition. Arrows that miss are not disintegrated by the spell. They are lost or damaged to the point where you need make whole to fix one. So is an arrow that hits. There might be a twisted, broken, shaft sticking out of the target if it's a crit. Again, mending won't fix it.

Unbreakable arrows are not subject to that rule. The GM will have to decide or roll for how lost an arrow can get. Is the DC for search in the woods 30? Can you find someone else's lost arrow anywhere arrows might have been used before?

Where will I post the topic "Your unbreakable arrow is lost because..."? In homebrew, forum games, or gamer talk? How about a black card for Pathfinders against Humanity? I can probably think of 10 white cards.

I get it. Even though blunt arrows are outright illegal in Pathfinder, most of you are claiming they do bludgeoning damage. An arrow that delivers cure moderate would have to have a ball of padding for the tip.

I've been trying to get a Pathfinder game together for over a year now, so no, I have not "seen" someone use a silver blunt arrow.


Wait huh? Blunt arrows aren't illegal for Pathfinder.

Scarab Sages

Goth Guru - You seem to be confused about what blunt arrows are in Pathfinder. Blunt arrows are not arrows that deal no damage. They just deal bludgeoning damage instead of piercing. If you want something to deliver a spell with without dealing damage, maybe try a tracer arrow or something.

PRD wrote:


BLUNT ARROWS
Price 2 gp (20)
Type ammunition
These arrows have rounded wooden tips that deal bludgeoning damage rather than piercing. An archer can use a blunt arrow to deal nonlethal damage (at the normal –4 attack penalty for using a lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage).

They appear in the Advanced Players Guide, so they are not legal for the Core campaign in PFS. Otherwise, there shouldn't be any issue with their legality, unless the GM has ruled them illegal for their game.


Unless there are non core, PFS campaigns, the distinction is pretty much meaning less. It's like playing evil characters. Outside PFS, the GM decides what is allowed.

Outside PFS, the GM can allow heavily silvered paint to be applied to blunt arrows. Inside PFS, Not Core, possibly not at all.

Sovereign Court

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That's true of every rule in the game - outside of PFS the GM can change it. But this is a rules forum - and blunt arrows are legal and are just wooden arrows that do bludgeoning damage.

I don't know what you're talking about with your talk of padding & delivering cure moderate.


Um, yes, there are non-Core PFS campaigns. Core has only existed for a few months.

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