Invulnerable Rager FAQ and character update


Pathfinder Society

1 to 50 of 62 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

With the changes to the Invulnerable Rager Archetype (primarily the Barbarian Rage Power Increased Damage Reduction not stacking), are we able to make any changes to our characters to accommodate this?

Specifically, I have a level 11 Invulnerable Rager where I took Increased Damage Reduction multiple times for my Rage Power, and I took Extra Rage Power multiple times for my feats (where I took Increased Damage Reduction).

Am I (and other's who probably did this) just stuck with these now useless choices, or are we able to make any changes to our character?

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

I'll take some time to investigate that this week.

4/5 ****

I didn't even know this was an issue.

Link to the FAQ

4/5 ****

On a personal note, I have a poorly-functioning character from the Ultimate Combat errata that is rendered further into iffyness by this FAQ.

Story Time:

Skinwalker - Unchained Barbarian

In addition to the defensive power of concealment, the character relied on Mistmail to power Moonlight Stalker.

Without the easy access to concealment, moonlight stalker doesn't work. I assure you I'm not using combat expertise for any sort of meaningful AC on this character.

The character is currently level 5.

I thought to myself okay, I guess the easy concealment was too good to be true, I'll apply GM credit to the character until I can buy the displacement cloak, something I normally avoid doing to my characters that have special boons, like Skinwalker. I'd rather play the character. So I'm a little sad to start with.

Now it turns out that the character's DR doesn't work anymore either...

I don't even know what to do now.


Pirate Rob wrote:

On a personal note, I have a poorly-functioning character from the Ultimate Combat errata that is rendered further into iffyness by this FAQ.

** spoiler omitted **

If you want instant concealment use Smoke Sticks.

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Cainus wrote:
Pirate Rob wrote:

On a personal note, I have a poorly-functioning character from the Ultimate Combat errata that is rendered further into iffyness by this FAQ.

** spoiler omitted **

If you want instant concealment use Smoke Sticks.

Well, standard action concealment. And with Mistmail your vision wasn't affected -- with a smokestick you've got some directions that are blocked.

1/5

pH unbalanced wrote:
Cainus wrote:
Pirate Rob wrote:

On a personal note, I have a poorly-functioning character from the Ultimate Combat errata that is rendered further into iffyness by this FAQ.

** spoiler omitted **

If you want instant concealment use Smoke Sticks.
Well, standard action concealment. And with Mistmail your vision wasn't affected -- with a smokestick you've got some directions that are blocked.

Gotta love those gas masks from the future or a Goz Mask.

As for the actual FAQ: My personal opinion is that Invulnerable Rager barb characters should have the ability to swap out feats or rage powers that were used for Improved DR. The wording in the text was very ambiguous. The only reason people even noticed the issue was because herolab didn't allow them to stack and wondered why. Turned out herolab had an inside track on that issue and was using it correctly. It's just that everyone playing on paper wasn't.

Sovereign Court

pH unbalanced wrote:
Cainus wrote:
Pirate Rob wrote:

On a personal note, I have a poorly-functioning character from the Ultimate Combat errata that is rendered further into iffyness by this FAQ.

** spoiler omitted **

If you want instant concealment use Smoke Sticks.
Well, standard action concealment.

Dropping smoke pellets works, though it probably uses up a hand. (Not sure how GMs would feel about a character spitting one out each turn. :P) And 20% concealment isn't a big deal if you have Moonlight Stalker since it requires Blind-Fight as a pre-req. (Becomes a 4% miss chance.)

Frankly, mistmail in PFS struck me as too limited defensively; the AC was too low to be useful past low levels anyway.

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Pirate Rob wrote:
On a personal note, I have a poorly-functioning character from the Ultimate Combat errata that is rendered further into iffyness by this FAQ.

IMO a cloak of minor displacement doesn't grant you concealment.

Cloak of Minor Displacement wrote:
This displacement works similar to the blur spell, granting a 20% miss chance on attacks against the wearer.

It doesn't give you blur, or concealment. It grants you an effect that is similar to blur with a 20% miss chance that isn't concealment.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5

7 people marked this as a favorite.

Gah! Golarion keeps changing while I'm away. First my boots stopped working and now my skin grows thinner with age. Oh well, 465 days until my return.

Mounts his spirit wolf and rejoins Baba Yaga's contingent of Black Riders.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Michael Eshleman wrote:
Pirate Rob wrote:
On a personal note, I have a poorly-functioning character from the Ultimate Combat errata that is rendered further into iffyness by this FAQ.

IMO a cloak of minor displacement doesn't grant you concealment.

Cloak of Minor Displacement wrote:
This displacement works similar to the blur spell, granting a 20% miss chance on attacks against the wearer.
It doesn't give you blur, or concealment. It grants you an effect that is similar to blur with a 20% miss chance that isn't concealment.

I think perhaps that's being a bit harsh. However, I'm of an opinion that spells like blur despite giving you concealment, don't allow you to hide in plain sight.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Per ultimate intrigue blur won't grant you concealment to hide with.


Presumably this applies to unchained barbarians too?

What a sad day :( time to retrain my archetype, I can spend the feats/rage powers I was going to use anyways and get higher dr without it!

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 5 people marked this as a favorite.

Wow. That's a shady FAQ. The archetype even recommends taking that Rage Power.

4/5

9 people marked this as a favorite.

Seriously, there is no way that is an "error". This is a retcon.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

And that's something Paizo has NEVER done before, amirite?

The Exchange 1/5

That is hilarious I didn't notice that it recommended it!

2/5

The FAQ will also affect the Savage Barbarian archetype. The Savage Barbarian trades away the Damage Reduction ability while also recommending the Increased Damage Reduction rage power.

I doubt there are many (any?) Savage Barbarians out there, but any PFS re-train ruling due to the FAQ should probably include them.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

My invulnerable rager is playing Eyes of the Ten this weekend so I hope we have an official rebuild option by then

Grand Lodge 4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm amused that we are both participating in Eyes of the Ten this weekend Bob.

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

Cainus wrote:
Pirate Rob wrote:

On a personal note, I have a poorly-functioning character from the Ultimate Combat errata that is rendered further into iffyness by this FAQ.

** spoiler omitted **

If you want instant concealment use Smoke Sticks.

If you can somehow get a hold of darkvision a Eclipsed Light spell might work. I mean you are blowing a feat and a level to get the effect but its pretty reliable.

EDIT:
Haven't looked at 1st level light spells so there may be more spells that actually would be relevant depending on what class you dip. The 0th level cantrip would be usable all day though.

Lantern Lodge 3/5

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Is it just me, or are these FAQs and nerfs getting to be completely ridiculous?

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

I'm not going to make a value judgement, but I personally don't think there is an OP problem with the extra DR power stacking with invulnerable like it does for the DR class ability. Like anything else, it's subject to misuse by an over-eager player. There are many other class features much more "broken" than this one so not sure why a stand needed to be taken in this particular case. It is what it is. I'm just wondering what I need to do with my now illegal PC. The simplest thing to do is a free retrain on the rage power, but I'm sure some will argue that their entire character concept is based on stacking DR and want a full rebuild.

Lantern Lodge 3/5

Bob Jonquet wrote:
I'm not going to make a value judgement, but I personally don't think there is an OP problem with the extra DR power stacking with invulnerable like it does for the DR class ability. Like anything else, it's subject to misuse by an over-eager player. There are many other class features much more "broken" than this one so not sure why a stand needed to be taken in this particular case. It is what it is. I'm just wondering what I need to do with my now illegal PC. The simplest thing to do is a free retrain on the rage power, but I'm sure some will argue that their entire character concept is based on stacking DR and want a full rebuild.

My personal view is this:

We all play this game to have fun, right? So if something changes, no matter how big or small it might be, that change can drastically impact the satisfaction of a particular build for someone.

Allowing the changed article to be replaced is all well and good, but if the end result is no longer satisfying to that particular player, I firmly believe that is a perfectly valid feeling to have following a character change.

We've had enough character changes of late (last 2 years in particular) that considering broader rebuild options for folks should be something that is on the table for discussion.

In my personal opinion, a full rebuild should have been given already.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

There may be *another* huge rebuild required soon, as well.

1/5

Nefreet wrote:
There may be *another* huge rebuild required soon, as well.

Meh, I couldn't get enough FAQs when it was released and had lots of attention. I doubt we'll get enough now. So if by soon you mean maybe in a few years, then yes, maybe soon. If you meant within the year, it would require a vast change in the current situation. AND even then, the FAQ would have to make them not work, which seems to be the opposite of what Mark (PDT?) thinks would be the result.

1/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Bob Jonquet wrote:
I'm not going to make a value judgement, but I personally don't think there is an OP problem with the extra DR power stacking with invulnerable like it does for the DR class ability. Like anything else, it's subject to misuse by an over-eager player. There are many other class features much more "broken" than this one so not sure why a stand needed to be taken in this particular case. It is what it is. I'm just wondering what I need to do with my now illegal PC. The simplest thing to do is a free retrain on the rage power, but I'm sure some will argue that their entire character concept is based on stacking DR and want a full rebuild.

I agree with you on the obvious fix.

While someone may claim they need a full rebuild, I would love to hear how their build is somehow completely broken and not functional by not gaining an extra 3 DR (if maxed out).


Lab_Rat wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
I'm not going to make a value judgement, but I personally don't think there is an OP problem with the extra DR power stacking with invulnerable like it does for the DR class ability. Like anything else, it's subject to misuse by an over-eager player. There are many other class features much more "broken" than this one so not sure why a stand needed to be taken in this particular case. It is what it is. I'm just wondering what I need to do with my now illegal PC. The simplest thing to do is a free retrain on the rage power, but I'm sure some will argue that their entire character concept is based on stacking DR and want a full rebuild.

I agree with you on the obvious fix.

While someone may claim they need a full rebuild, I would love to hear how their build is somehow completely broken and not functional by not gaining an extra 3 DR (if maxed out).

I guess the question is "completely broken and not functional" the right criteria for a full rebuild?

Anything that someone put half their rage powers into is probably a fairly important part of the concept. Had that not been available from the start, who knows what else they might have done.

That said, I suspect it's a pretty small number of characters. I know they hate giving full rebuilds, but it's just not that big a deal overall.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

On the other hand, a Ninja/Scout rebuild would have to be rather extensive, because mobility is a narrow focus for a build.

1/5

And if it was an unchained barb that's 6 DR. Which changes the lv8 with retraining to get all three via feats from dr 10 to dr 4. DR 10 at lv8 is fun DR. Dr 4 is nice but not letting attacks bounce off you. Stalwart goes form DR 14 to DR 8.

So if going for a DR build they are better of going normal unchained now as they'd miss out on 3 DR from class rather than the 6 DR from rage powers.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

I'm for this but only because it makes Bolstered Resilience less crazy.

1/5

thejeff wrote:

I guess the question is "completely broken and not functional" the right criteria for a full rebuild?

Anything that someone put half their rage powers into is probably a fairly important part of the concept. Had that not been available from the start, who knows what else they might have done.

That said, I suspect it's a pretty small number of characters. I know they hate giving full rebuilds, but it's just not that big a deal overall.

Like I said, I would love to hear someone describe a build in which the loss of 3 points of DR breaks their build.

You're not loosing some kind of ability you don't already have. The barbarian still has DR, just slightly less. No other rage powers are reliant upon taking Increased Damage Reduction. No feats or magic items I know of require a specific amount of DR.


Lab_Rat wrote:
thejeff wrote:

I guess the question is "completely broken and not functional" the right criteria for a full rebuild?

Anything that someone put half their rage powers into is probably a fairly important part of the concept. Had that not been available from the start, who knows what else they might have done.

That said, I suspect it's a pretty small number of characters. I know they hate giving full rebuilds, but it's just not that big a deal overall.

Like I said, I would love to hear someone describe a build in which the loss of 3 points of DR breaks their build.

You're not loosing some kind of ability you don't already have. The barbarian still has DR, just slightly less. No other rage powers are reliant upon taking Increased Damage Reduction. No feats or magic items I know of require a specific amount of DR.

Well, that's the question. What does "Breaks their build" mean?

Yes, you will still have a legal character if you change 3 rage powers out. Therefore, it's not broken. That's the simplest definition, right?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Just because it's not important to you doesn't mean it's not important to someone else.

Maybe that 6 less DR means they started with a lower Con (not needing as many HP). Maybe they started with a lower Dex (not needing as much AC). Maybe they prioritized other purchases over armor. Maybe they multiclassed after hitting Barbarian 8.

There are innumerable scenarios where someone's build could get impacted enough by this for someone's character to fall apart. And even if it doesn't fall apart in your eyes, it doesn't matter; it's not your character.

4/5 ****

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Here is the build skeleton I linked above.

I think the combination of the 2 sets of recent changes has rendered both of the character's defenses (high DR and concealment) non-functional.

Additionally the character's 3feat offensive chain (including an 8k item) moonlight stalker also doesn't work.

While I think UC errata was a bigger deal (and didn't let me retrain the feat chain that now doesn't work, or resell the item needed for it)

The removal of DR and the eventual return of a rage power and 3 feats pushes the character far enough away from it's original mechanics that I don't currently find it playable.

3/5

Nefreet wrote:

Just because it's not important to you doesn't mean it's not important to someone else.

Maybe that 6 less DR means they started with a lower Con (not needing as many HP). Maybe they started with a lower Dex (not needing as much AC). Maybe they prioritized other purchases over armor. Maybe they multiclassed after hitting Barbarian 8.

There are innumerable scenarios where someone's build could get impacted enough by this for someone's character to fall apart. And even if it doesn't fall apart in your eyes, it doesn't matter; it's not your character.

One man's cheese is another mans pizza topping.

Many people build their characters like someone would build a machine. They fine tune the pieces to all work together to create something they think they would enjoy. Just as nefreet mentioned every little piece is selected in a way to make the character work in a very precise manner.

Small changes can completely change how the character works.

My resolution is when a rule change occurs they can petition a VO for a rebuild. If they can convince the VO a rule changed effected their character is a drastic enough way allow the rebuild.

3/5

Pirate Rob wrote:

Here is the build skeleton I linked above.

I think the combination of the 2 sets of recent changes has rendered both of the character's defenses (high DR and concealment) non-functional.

Additionally the character's 3feat offensive chain (including an 8k item) moonlight stalker also doesn't work.

While I think UC errata was a bigger deal (and didn't let me retrain the feat chain that now doesn't work, or resell the item needed for it)

The removal of DR and the eventual return of a rage power and 3 feats pushes the character far enough away from it's original mechanics that I don't currently find it playable.

I am unable to view the google doc, but I have a lsight suggestion you may like.

Mist mail is pretty cheap. Have you though of getting multiple sets of it? How many times a day do you need to concealed? 5?

For 11250 you can do it 5 times a day. 3 minutes each. Still cheaper than a cloak of displacement that some argue does nto give concealment.

4/5 ****

Finlanderboy wrote:


Mist mail is pretty cheap. Have you though of getting multiple sets of it? How many times a day do you need to concealed? 5?

For 11250 you can do it 5 times a day. 3 minutes each. Still cheaper than a cloak of displacement that some argue does nto give concealment.

The standard action is a real killer as well.

3/5

Pirate Rob wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:


Mist mail is pretty cheap. Have you though of getting multiple sets of it? How many times a day do you need to concealed? 5?

For 11250 you can do it 5 times a day. 3 minutes each. Still cheaper than a cloak of displacement that some argue does nto give concealment.

The standard action is a real killer as well.

yeah it slows you down, but does not remove mistmails usefulness.

It was stupid good, and a standard action I think makes it balanced. Considering anyone can do it, not a spell caster.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Finlanderboy wrote:

My resolution is when a rule change occurs they can petition a VO for a rebuild. If they can convince the VO a rule changed effected their character is a drastic enough way allow the rebuild.

Not everyone has easy venture critter access

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

My invul rager with a Dex of 7 and no armor would likely be a case of DR being hugely important, but the loss of the stack does not have me crying complete rebuild. As long as I am permitted to retrain those rage powers, I'm happy

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

Pirate Rob wrote:

On a personal note, I have a poorly-functioning character from the Ultimate Combat errata that is rendered further into iffyness by this FAQ.

** spoiler omitted **

I would cross-post that in the Ultimate Equipment errata thread, which I need to revisit anyway to address goblin fire drum and at least a few other updates. This seems like it might be cause for expanding the rebuilding allowances for mistmail.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

4 people marked this as a favorite.

We've discussed what we understand the priority issues are and likely character options that would have been affected as a result of the recent FAQ. Let me know if this leaves any significant issues unaddressed. If there are any modifications we agree to incorporate, I'll incorporate them into the formal statement tomorrow. Anyone who needs to know how to adjust his or her barbarian PC in anticipation of an imminent game should go ahead and use the provisional changes listed below.

Spoiler:

You may retrain any of the following for a barbarian PC.
  • Any instances of the improved damage reduction rage power
  • The invulnerable rager archetype
  • The Bolstered Resilience, Extra Rage, Improved Stalwart, Rebuffing Reduction, and Stalwart feats (and Diehard, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, and Power Attack feats if used as prerequisites for those feats)
  • Increased damage reduction should be removed from the recommended rage powers for the savage barbarian archetype, but since it clearly loses the damage reduction ability already, this really shouldn’t be a situation that necessitates a special rebuilding condition.

    4/5

    3 people marked this as a favorite.

    "clearly"

    Sorry, but it made me laugh out loud, 6 years after the second printing.

    Thanks for the answer though.

    3/5

    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    Finlanderboy wrote:

    My resolution is when a rule change occurs they can petition a VO for a rebuild. If they can convince the VO a rule changed effected their character is a drastic enough way allow the rebuild.

    Not everyone has easy venture critter access

    who is farther than an email away?

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    Finlanderboy wrote:
    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    Finlanderboy wrote:

    My resolution is when a rule change occurs they can petition a VO for a rebuild. If they can convince the VO a rule changed effected their character is a drastic enough way allow the rebuild.

    Not everyone has easy venture critter access
    who is farther than an email away?

    strums banjo

    3/5

    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    Finlanderboy wrote:
    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    Finlanderboy wrote:

    My resolution is when a rule change occurs they can petition a VO for a rebuild. If they can convince the VO a rule changed effected their character is a drastic enough way allow the rebuild.

    Not everyone has easy venture critter access
    who is farther than an email away?
    strums banjo

    I do not know what this means.

    Grand Lodge 4/5

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    There are places that lack email. And internet.

    3/5

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
    There are places that lack email. And internet.

    Then how do they know about the erreta?

    So someone is so discontected from the outside world, but for unknown reasons magically connected to PFS to learn all the breaking news.

    That is too silly to account for.

    Grand Lodge 4/5

    Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Finlanderboy wrote:
    Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
    There are places that lack email. And internet.
    Then how do they know about the erreta?

    Their GM tells them.

    1 to 50 of 62 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
    Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Invulnerable Rager FAQ and character update All Messageboards

    Want to post a reply? Sign in.