That's a Medium bleeder


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

Let's say I am a level 9 Medium with the Boar style line. Would the spirit bonus (and seance bonus) from Champion apply to the bleed damage(Boar shred), being a non-spell damage roll?
What about splash damage and "on fire" damage from an alchemist fire?
How about robe of needles, the piercing, bleed, or both?
What about rapier of puncturing? The stacking bleed, and/or the con damage attack?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Champion Spirit, for reference (scroll down a bit).

The +2 would likely apply to alchemical weapons, such as Alchemist's Fire, but I don't believe it would apply to the Bleed Condition. Definitely not splash damage of typical splash weapons, either, though since the +2 would increase the base damage of an Alchemist Bomb, it would likewise increase Bomb splash damage.

Bleed Damage is taken at the beginning of the bleeder's turn. Even though, in the case of Boar Shred, you're dealing multiple dice of bleed damage, it's still not a "damage roll" in the traditional sense.

Sovereign Court

Both the Spirit bonus and Seance bonus apply to non spell damage rolls. So the level 9 example would be +5 damage. Level 1, +3(without spirit focus).

So, why isn't splash damage, a damage roll? If we make the argument that dice need to be rolled, then what about a diminutive dagger, and by extension, the robe of needles?

What about Artokus's Fire, then? Certainly rolls for damage on the splash. I could see the argument for no precision damage on splash, but this isn't precision. Like you said, it would apply to bombs.

For bleed(and catching on fire), is it more that you are applying the condition "Bleed (X)"? The universal monster rule certainly calls it damage, and the example (on d20 anyway) shows it as bleed(2d6). The only real difference is when it happens, and stacking.

Do we have "damage roll" defined somewhere?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The PRD also lists Boar Shred as inflicting 1d6 bleed. Perhaps the version on d20pfsrd is from a third party publisher. I usually avoid using d20pfsrd for reasons exactly like this.

"Damage Rolls" is ambiguous. It most likely is weapon damage rolls. That's the general precedent throughout Pathfinder, unless otherwise stated. Things that require attack rolls. This is why the direct damage from a splash weapon would be augmented (requires an attack roll), while the splash damage would not (no attack roll used).

It's a general understanding, but feel free to apply it however your GM sees fit. There's nothing written in stone for either side of the argument, as far as I'm aware.

Sovereign Court

So when the specific example is "non-spell" damage rolls, we are restricting it to weapon damage rolls? Or damage rolls that have an attack roll associated with them?

I would have thought the "otherwise stated" was the "non-spell" part.

D20 has Boar shred at 1d6 as well, the 2d6 I mentioned is from the monster universal rule for bleed in masterwork tools, it gives a format example after the rules text. Probably a bad example, but when I have my desktop maybe I'll go through the Prd for monsters with bleed of dice vs non-dice.

Edit: Looks like I won't need to do so. The PRD has Bleed(EX) with "Format: bleed (2d6); Location: Special Attacks and individual attacks." as well.


I wouldn't apply it to ongoing condition effects like bleed damage, catching on fire from an alchemist's fire, etc. IMO you're not the source of the damage at that point, the condition is.


Nefreet wrote:
Champion Spirit, for reference (scroll down a bit). Direct link
Firebug wrote:

Let's say I am a level 9 Medium with the Boar style line. Would the spirit bonus (and seance bonus) from Champion apply to the bleed damage(Boar shred), being a non-spell damage roll?

What about splash damage and "on fire" damage from an alchemist fire?
How about robe of needles, the piercing, bleed, or both?
What about rapier of puncturing? The stacking bleed, and/or the con damage attack?

Boar shred will do 1d6 bleed the next round. I agree it will not be affected by the Champion Spirit/Seance. The feat requires Boar Style which does 2d6, which will be affected by the Champion spirit & Seance.

Alchemist's Fire splash damage is static, so is not affected. The next round 1d6, however, I would rule affected.

The Robe of Needles only does static damage, so would not be affected.

The Rapier of Puncturing does CON damage, so would be affected. I can see a case for converting the extra damage to HP damage, but I am not sure if that is RAW. Not sure what the stacking bleed you mention is.

/cevah

Sovereign Court

Oddly enough, I am essentially the opposite on most of these, Cevah.

I agree that Boar Shred shouldn't, but because I am viewing bleed as a condition, not an attack. However, I would argue that Boar Style would not be affected by the bonus damage, as Boar Style is "extra" damage. It would be like applying it to sneak attack, or flaming weapon in addition to the actual attack.

I would say that the Champion bonus damage would apply to the direct target of Alchemist Fire, and the splash damage because they are direct instances of non-spell damage. But am on the fence about the second round damage. This is because the second round damage from Alchemist Fire is very similar to the condition "catch on fire" though it doesn't come out and say it. But it is different enough that I lean toward allowing it.

CON damage, I would be the exact opposite. That is, Ability damage != Damage. I am pretty sure there was a FAQ somewhere that Ability damage is not increased by things like sneak attack, as in, its not "hit point" damage even though the abilities just say damage. I mean, otherwise a level 9 rogue with a Rapier of Puncturing just hit you for 6d6(average 21) points of CON damage as a touch attack.

The stacking bleed is from the wounding weapon property. Specifically "Multiple hits from a wounding weapon increase the bleed damage.", vs the general case "When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect."

On the static front, what about a Wayang (small humanoid without a strength penalty) with reduce person to become tiny and using an unarmed strike? 1d2->1. Lets say you buy a 18 starting strength, Reduce person will drop this to a 16. Would you say they do 1 damage when they punch someone? Or 1(weapon) +3(str) damage. Now they have Boar Ferocity and have at least 3 levels of Swashbuckler, would they add +3 from precise strike? And then pick up a level of Medium for Champion for +3 more non-spell damage? So 1(weapon) +3(str) +3(precise) +3(champion) = 10? Or just 1.

Currently I am at:
Applies to "normal stuff", Static (robe of needles piercing part, tiny unarmed strike), Splash, SU abilities (breath weapon, whirlwind), EX abilities (constrict, trample, swallow whole, light rays), Scatter weapons.
Does not apply to Spells (obviously), Conditions(Bleed, catch on fire), Extra Damage (sneak attack, Boar Style, flaming weapon, heat(ex)), Ability Damage, Energy Drain(no extra negative levels), Spell-Like Abilities.
Currently on the fence: Poison (if it does HP damage), second round of Alchemist Fire (technically not catch on fire), Rend (it says additional damage, but does get str bonus), Immolation Bomb (Alchemist, makes it last several rounds).

I am not compiling these for any particular character, just trying to find all the different variations of "damage".


Firebug wrote:
Oddly enough, I am essentially the opposite on most of these, Cevah.

:-)

Firebug wrote:
I would say that the Champion bonus damage would apply to the direct target of Alchemist Fire, and the splash damage because they are direct instances of non-spell damage. But am on the fence about the second round damage. This is because the second round damage from Alchemist Fire is very similar to the condition "catch on fire" though it doesn't come out and say it. But it is different enough that I lean toward allowing it.

The splash damage is a static 1 point, and not a die roll. So I would not increase that.

The second round is also like Acid Arrow that has additional damage later in the round. It is not "catching on acid", but rather so much acid is taking time to apply. Catching-on-Fire is something that happens in addition to any fire damage. It has a reflex save each round to stop. The Alchemical fire does not.

Firebug wrote:
CON damage, I would be the exact opposite. That is, Ability damage != Damage. I am pretty sure there was a FAQ somewhere that Ability damage is not increased by things like sneak attack, as in, its not "hit point" damage even though the abilities just say damage. I mean, otherwise a level 9 rogue with a Rapier of Puncturing just hit you for 6d6(average 21) points of CON damage as a touch attack.

I recall seeing something similar, but it stated the extra damage was hp damage not stat damage. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find it. :-(

Firebug wrote:
On the static front, what about a Wayang (small humanoid without a strength penalty) with reduce person to become tiny and using an unarmed strike? 1d2->1. Lets say you buy a 18 starting strength, Reduce person will drop this to a 16. Would you say they do 1 damage when they punch someone? Or 1(weapon) +3(str) damage. Now they have Boar Ferocity and have at least 3 levels of Swashbuckler, would they add +3 from precise strike? And then pick up a level of Medium for Champion for +3 more non-spell damage? So 1(weapon) +3(str) +3(precise) +3(champion) = 10? Or just 1.

While it might state 1d2->1, I would treat it as 1d2->1d1. This leaves it as a roll and not a static value, and so gains the benefits.

Firebug wrote:

Currently I am at:

Applies to "normal stuff", Static (robe of needles piercing part, tiny unarmed strike), Splash, SU abilities (breath weapon, whirlwind), EX abilities (constrict, trample, swallow whole, light rays), Scatter weapons.
Does not apply to Spells (obviously), Conditions(Bleed, catch on fire), Extra Damage (sneak attack, Boar Style, flaming weapon, heat(ex)), Ability Damage, Energy Drain(no extra negative levels), Spell-Like Abilities.
Currently on the fence: Poison (if it does HP damage), second round of Alchemist Fire (technically not catch on fire), Rend (it says additional damage, but does get str bonus), Immolation Bomb (Alchemist, makes it last several rounds).

As both Spirit Bonus and Seance Bonus say "damage rolls", not "damage", static should not get it. This includes splash damage.

SLA does not get it, but SU and EX may get it if the damage is rolled.
For conditions, I think it might apply on the initial, but not the additional rounds.
For extra damage, since it is usually combined with initial damage, will usually be irrelevant since the initial damage will be rolled. Since you can only add the bonus once, it should not matter. Also, most extra damage is not from the character but some effect on the weapon. Any damage generated by the character would have the bonus, but generated by the weapon would not.
This also applies to poison. If it is generated by the PC, then it benefits. If it is merely applied, it does not.

Firebug wrote:
I am not compiling these for any particular character, just trying to find all the different variations of "damage".

/cevah

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / That's a Medium bleeder All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.