I've been considering doing PFS as a Mystic Theurge. I'm just curious if it's realistic. I'm looking at it, and there do seem to be some set backs. At level six I would be three levels arcane, and three divine. This means for each I'd be at 2nd level casting, and in comparison just sticking with one gives 3rd level. Of course not forgetting that at level 11, I would have 4th level casting, compared to 6th level. I always justify lower spellcaster levels by focusing on buffing, but is buffing still viable? I don't want to have twice as many bad spells, so I'm just wondering if realistically MT could be pulled off in PFS. If it helps I was thinking of doing a Dwarven Druid/Wizard. (Quite flavorful, have a half-developed background already). I've always wanted MT to work, but I can see it's obvious weaknesses. Thanks for any and all help.
You seem to have a pretty good handle on it. MT isn't great but if you don't mind just buffing people you'll do just fine. Personally I'd go the bard route if you want to be a buffer and do it better but that's just me. MT dabbles in many different things but tends to suck at all of it.
I played a Mystic Theurge in PFS from level 1-13 focused on buffing, summoning, and some debuffing. Wizard2/Cleric1/Theurge10 as of right now. If that was still possible, I would definitely recommend it.
Under the old ruling that Spell-Like abilities qualified as spells for prestige classes and other things, it was worth it, but only just.
Even with just the 1 level of arcane casting lost, It sometimes felt weaker than just a straight wizard. Most of the time though, the added flexibility of cleric spells and domain options was a lot of fun. The power level wasn't higher, but the flexibility was very fun.
Now that that loophole has been closed, I cannot advise against it enough. Being that many spell levels behind on both casting lists is too much of a drawback. At 7th level you will still be rocking only 2nd level spells, which is 2/3 through the normal pfs career.
The only way I can see it being halfway viable, would be to forget being effective in combat entirely for the first 7 levels, take traits that let you use int for some social skills, and be a socialite that helps avoid combat and noncombat encounters. Than your spell slots don't matter half as much, there are some buffs you can use to help more in social situations. This would require (or it would help to have) a semi consistent party that knows the limitations of your character.
MT as a class is ok-ish. It's playable, but with the low level cap (compared to an AP) of PFS, I don't think it's worth it. MT starts to play well at levels 10+ and PFS is almost over by that time. For a big part of your career, you'll wish you'd play something different.
Also, I don't think Druid/Wizard is a good build for buffing. Clerics have way better buffs than druids and wizards don't really start to do any buffing before level 3 spells (i.e. character level 8 for your MT).
All right then. Thanks. I'll pocket the idea for later. I suppose for buffs some other classes might work better. Or maybe just a straight class. I'll see how the wind blows.
I've only seen a 20th level MT in action for a one-shot, and the major issue was choice-paralysis. Too many options.
I personally would suggest a hybrid class or a class that has a diverse spell list or a fun combination of one spell list & fun domain/school/revelation/patron/etc.
something to consider is a Wizard (Spellslinger) /Cleric /MT. You will have a gun hitting touch AC, so you can contribute somewhat. And the magic bullets love that you have so many low level spells to shoot with. take reach spell and shoot cleric touch debuffs. the loss of save DC is compensated with the arcane gun.
something to consider is a Wizard (Spellslinger) /Cleric /MT. You will have a gun hitting touch AC, so you can contribute somewhat. And the magic bullets love that you have so many low level spells to shoot with. take reach spell and shoot cleric touch debuffs. the loss of save DC is compensated with the arcane gun.
The OP mentioned this was for PFS, Spellslinger is not allowed in PFS.
I've tried this build yesterday:
Druid 3 (mhenir savant, air domain)
Sorcerer 4 (Empyreal Wildblooded)
MT 1
Evangelist 10 (Aligned MT)
Sorcerer 2
You can focus just to boost your WIS (and put the rest in COn or DEX like a normal full spellcaster).
Focus on Conjuration, the best school and both druid and sorcerer have good spells of this school.
At LV 20 you can cast lv8 sorcerer spells and lv7 druid spells.
With a very hight WIS (24 in my builds with the true form of evangelist) your spell dc will be good.
Of course you will always be weaker than a single class caster but you will be full of spells and full of choices.
Also druid spell list is very versatile... mybe not too strong but you can focus on learn only the best sorcerer spells that druid don't have.
Forcy, while I like that idea for a home game, or something that starts at a high level, Since this is for PFS there are 2 small problems.
1st, I believe there is some debate on if you can select a Prestige Class as your aligned class for the Evangelist. I don't necessarily agree with it, but there are several threads debating whether you can pick it or not, and picking something in a grey area like that is usually bad news in PFS.
2nd, the build you posted doesn't get 3rd level spells until level 10. So you will be at 9th level (Druid3/Sorc4/Mt1/Evangelist1) casting create pit and entangle. Not the most effective of things to be doing against CR 10+ encounters.
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Personally if I were to create a MT I would go Wizard (Spirit whisperer) 5/ 1 Cleric/ MT.
The Spirit Whisperer allows you to pick a Shaman spirit and at level 5 you get one of the spirits hexes. So then choose the Lore spirit and the Arcane Enlightenment Hex. That gives you divine spells allowing you to qualify for MT.
This means you only lose one level of Wizard progression. The Only downside is that the Spirit whisperer is fairly lackluster otherwise. But for the extra spells gained through the Cleric/MT I consider this to be worth it.
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Personally if I were to create a MT I would go Wizard (Spirit whisperer) 5/ 1 Cleric/ MT.
The Spirit Whisperer allows you to pick a Shaman spirit and at level 5 you get one of the spirits hexes. So then choose the Lore spirit and the Arcane Enlightenment Hex. That gives you divine spells allowing you to qualify for MT.
This means you only lose one level of Wizard progression. The Only downside is that the Spirit whisperer is fairly lackluster otherwise. But for the extra spells gained through the Cleric/MT I consider this to be worth it.
That's a really cool use of the divine clause from arcane enlightenment. I like it!
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That's a really cool use of the divine clause from arcane enlightenment. I like it!Personally if I were to create a MT I would go Wizard (Spirit whisperer) 5/ 1 Cleric/ MT.
The Spirit Whisperer allows you to pick a Shaman spirit and at level 5 you get one of the spirits hexes. So then choose the Lore spirit and the Arcane Enlightenment Hex. That gives you divine spells allowing you to qualify for MT.
This means you only lose one level of Wizard progression. The Only downside is that the Spirit whisperer is fairly lackluster otherwise. But for the extra spells gained through the Cleric/MT I consider this to be worth it.
Yeah it's great. Like so many other things though I cannot take credit for it, saw it here on the boards a while back.
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Personally if I were to create a MT I would go Wizard (Spirit whisperer) 5/ 1 Cleric/ MT.
The Spirit Whisperer allows you to pick a Shaman spirit and at level 5 you get one of the spirits hexes. So then choose the Lore spirit and the Arcane Enlightenment Hex. That gives you divine spells allowing you to qualify for MT.
This means you only lose one level of Wizard progression. The Only downside is that the Spirit whisperer is fairly lackluster otherwise. But for the extra spells gained through the Cleric/MT I consider this to be worth it.
I'd expect significant GM variance as to whether or not they'd allow this. I certainly wouldn't allow it in PFS
I'd expect significant GM variance as to whether or not they'd allow this. I certainly wouldn't allow it in PFSPersonally if I were to create a MT I would go Wizard (Spirit whisperer) 5/ 1 Cleric/ MT.
The Spirit Whisperer allows you to pick a Shaman spirit and at level 5 you get one of the spirits hexes. So then choose the Lore spirit and the Arcane Enlightenment Hex. That gives you divine spells allowing you to qualify for MT.
This means you only lose one level of Wizard progression. The Only downside is that the Spirit whisperer is fairly lackluster otherwise. But for the extra spells gained through the Cleric/MT I consider this to be worth it.
On what basis would you disallow it? From the rules text for Arcane Enlightenment, "When she casts these spells, they are treated as divine rather than arcane."
The only early entry trick for mystic theurge that is still PFS legal is Equipment Trick (sunrod) from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. This raises the level of spells with the light descriptor by one for all purposes. This is definitely not an ideal way to enter, as you're hinging your entire build around a single feat's legality, but RAW it does work.
This allows you to enter early using any class that can cast Dancing Lantern, Faerie Fire, Flare Burst, Snapdragon Fireworks, or Unwelcome Halo. This is functionally all of them, letting you enter Mystic Theurge at 4th level again.
I do not recommend that people begin using this on a broad scale, as I believe it will be removed if it is used a great deal, but it does work.
On what basis would you disallow it? From the rules text for Arcane Enlightenment, "When she casts these spells, they are treated as divine rather than arcane."...
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Oh that is a sly move.
On what basis would you disallow it? From the rules text for Arcane Enlightenment, "When she casts these spells, they are treated as divine rather than arcane."I'd expect significant GM variance as to whether or not they'd allow this. I certainly wouldn't allow it in PFSPersonally if I were to create a MT I would go Wizard (Spirit whisperer) 5/ 1 Cleric/ MT.
The Spirit Whisperer allows you to pick a Shaman spirit and at level 5 you get one of the spirits hexes. So then choose the Lore spirit and the Arcane Enlightenment Hex. That gives you divine spells allowing you to qualify for MT.
This means you only lose one level of Wizard progression. The Only downside is that the Spirit whisperer is fairly lackluster otherwise. But for the extra spells gained through the Cleric/MT I consider this to be worth it.
Agreed, this is clear as a bell (and one I wasn't aware of, great find!)
I mean, you're already throwing a feat away in order to pull this off as well as locking yourself out of other archetype choices (adding a couple extra spells to your spellbook as a wizard is certainly not worth a feat on its own, so you can safely consider this a feat tax.)
But I can't imagine what argument you could possibly pose against something so clearly, explicitly worded.
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RAI, it's meant to make life easier for shamans because they don't suddenly suffer ASF for some of their spells.
If you go strictly by RAW, it's somewhat easy to disarm, actually. From the ability:
Arcane Enlightenment (Su): The shaman's native intelligence grants her the ability to tap into arcane lore. The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare. To cast these spells, she must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level, but the saving throw DCs of these spells are based on her Wisdom rather than Intelligence. When she casts these spells, they are treated as divine rather than arcane. Each time the shaman gains a level after taking this hex, she can choose to replace one of these spells with a new spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
A wizard with the archetype and hex adds spells to his shaman list. But since he has no shaman spellcasting, he can't prepare or cast those spells.
RAI, it's meant to make life easier for shamans because they don't suddenly suffer ASF for some of their spells.
If you go strictly by RAW, it's somewhat easy to disarm, actually. From the ability:
Arcane Enlightenment (Su): The shaman's native intelligence grants her the ability to tap into arcane lore. The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare. To cast these spells, she must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level, but the saving throw DCs of these spells are based on her Wisdom rather than Intelligence. When she casts these spells, they are treated as divine rather than arcane. Each time the shaman gains a level after taking this hex, she can choose to replace one of these spells with a new spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.A wizard with the archetype and hex adds spells to his shaman list. But since he has no shaman spellcasting, he can't prepare or cast those spells.
Awwww, man, Blave. Yeah, I'm on your side now. What a buzzkill.