Making my bard more useful


Advice


Dear all,

i’m playing a bard in our new campaign and while i’m having a blast playing him socially, i like to develop a second „leg“ how to support in combat besides bardic performance and spells. One relevant example would be as an archer or something. Also, i haven't chosen the third spell known for the second spell level yet. Maybe you can help here as well?

We are at level 5 (just reached it) at the moment and my stats are as follows:

ST:11
Dex:14
Con:14
Int: 14
Wis:10
Cha:20

Feats:

Skill focus (Perform)
Lingering Performance
Craft Wondrous Item

Spells:
1st Level: Grease, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Hideous Laughter
2nd Level: Glitterdust, Tongue, <open spell known>

Highest Skills:

Perform (string): 23 (Versatile performance: Diplomacy and Bluff = 23)
Perform (sing): 16
Perform (dance): 15
Intimidate: 13
Spellcraft: 11
Disguise: 11
Use Magic Device: 11
Knowledge: 8-11

Relevant Items:

Circlet of Persuasion
Headband of Charisma +2

I tried using my bow last time in battle and due to my Inspire Competence and the Bless from our cleric i wasn't so bad. +8 to hit and 1d8+2 damage. I also rolled a 20 and confirmed the crit, dealing 21 points of damage with one shot. (In the aftermath i realized that the char is not proficient with a longbow *embarrassed* )

So, are there any items, feats and stuff that i should take? Point-blank shot and go through the archer-feats or do you have another idea for the next few levels?

Another point: How can i prepare for enemies i can't talk to death or which will not be influenced by charm spells etc. like undead or oozes or stuff like that? For these enemies i have nothing in my repertoire.

Thank you!

Best regards

Brakiri


Inspire competence doesn't work for attacks. Just skill checks. Inspire Courage does.

Maybe use alchemist fire? Easy to hit and does some ok damage for your level.

Or focus on feint and help out that way.


If you want to play around with the bow a little more, Arcane Strike is an easy damage option without lowering your attack mod, and it leads to another way you can progress; Gloves of Arcane Striking and a reach weapon can be both fun and helpful.

Going full archer at this point would, imo, take too long as you need too many feats to stay competitive.

I'd probably go with Invisibility as the 2nd level spell as long as you have someone who'd really benefit and no-one more likely to cast it.


I meant Inspire Courage, sorry :)

I already use Alchemists Fire.

Arcane Strike is a nice idea, thank you.


Some bad news for you - The bardic performance you want is Inspire Courage, not Inspire Confidence. Inspire Courage and Bless are both Morale bonuses so they do not stack.

When you have a cleric and a bard in the same party, you need to be very careful about your buffs because they tend to step on each other's toes.

As far as your second level spell, Blindness/Deafness is a fun one although you already have Glitterdust. Silence can be an absolute killer debuff.

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With your stats, and 3 feats already spoken for, the ship has sailed for making your bard even barely competent at doing damage. Your best bet would be to focus on support. Plink with a crossbow once you've put up all your buffs, but in the next few levels, you should start getting enough spells and scrolls that you can focus on problem solving for the other characters.

In fact, I'd recommend investing in Use Magic Device, so you can bring a lot more variety of scrolls and wands to help out.

Sovereign Court

Spellsong feat: bard in my group used this last Friday to keep casting spells WHILE fascinating creatures. Very amazing combo. You can finally charm person or suggestion people without them knowing you cast anything...

The Exchange

Spelling is amazing and near unbeatable. You should look into the finale songs and go cheerleader bard at this point. U less you can retrain feats you are going to be under powered for a long time. Spells to select in the future for cheerleader bard are heroism, good hope, moment of greatness, saving finale, inspired greatness etc. You have a lot of options and they are all going to pick up hardcore around level seven.


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MeanMutton wrote:

Some bad news for you - The bardic performance you want is Inspire Courage, not Inspire Confidence. Inspire Courage and Bless are both Morale bonuses so they do not stack.

When you have a cleric and a bard in the same party, you need to be very careful about your buffs because they tend to step on each other's toes.

As far as your second level spell, Blindness/Deafness is a fun one although you already have Glitterdust. Silence can be an absolute killer debuff.

Not true, inspire courage grants a morale bonus on saves vs. charm and fear, but the attack and damage bonuses are of the type "competence":

Inspire Courage (Su): A 1st level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard’s performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.

Scarab Sages

If you want more combat presence, there are a few things you could do.

Consider retraining, or talking to your DM about a minor rebuild. You can keep your stats, but take either the Sound Striker archetype, or the Thundercaller archetype. Both have spell-like effects they create based on bardic performance, and their effects are REALLY good (particularly Thundercaller). You lose out a little bit (a very little bit) on utility, but the combat benefits FAR outweigh the loss, imo.

Grand Lodge

Biting Word is a spell that will help you feel more useful. 1d6 + charisma damage ranged touch attack.

Sovereign Court

Davor wrote:

If you want more combat presence, there are a few things you could do.

Consider retraining, or talking to your DM about a minor rebuild. You can keep your stats, but take either the Sound Striker archetype, or the Thundercaller archetype. Both have spell-like effects they create based on bardic performance, and their effects are REALLY good (particularly Thundercaller). You lose out a little bit (a very little bit) on utility, but the combat benefits FAR outweigh the loss, imo.

This. Combat bards are great (either archery or Fencing Grace work great), but you don't really have the stats for it. You might also consider the banner feat so that you get more buffing all of the time.

Also of note - with a CHA of 20 as a bard - you can do pretty well with illusion magic. The figment spells should work fine on undead, and most have rather subpar will saves, and especially the ones with no INT score should never be able to figure out things. (expect GM variation for smarter foes) Just put all of the skeletons & zombies in illusionary Silent Image boxes which you move around so that your party can take them out one at a time.

The higher level figments should work on oozes too. (since they don't rely upon vision alone)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Cacaphonous Call or Gallant Inspiration are some 2nd-level spells I like for bards, also. You're better set up for buffing and debuffing - which can be a full-time job, really. Work with your cleric on spell choices to avoid overlap and your team will be kicking butt.

As far as feats go, Spellsong is good in social areas, but unless you use a lot of Concentration spells its second use will be more limited. Arcane Strike gives a nice bonus to damage. You won't be one-shotting enemies, but our bard (not focusing on Archery) still managed to help whittle them down a lot more quickly.

Bards don't have a lot for things immune to enchantments and illusions (thus our bard's arrow-shooting) - there's the Threnodic Spell feat that lets you affect undead and such, so maybe a rod of that at later levels. Otherwise, ours did more buffing (Good Hope, the finale spells, etc.)

Sovereign Court

Cussune wrote:
Gallant Inspiration are some 2nd-level spells I like for bards, also.

I love the Inspiration spells in theory - but they don't stack with Inspire Courage. They actually work better for Skalds or the few bard archetypes which get variations of Inspire Courage. (archivist etc.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

For the attacks yes, potentially, but not the skill checks (several times our bard didn't have IC up when combat started, but using Gallant Inspiration gave our fighter the boost). I keep forgetting figments like the Image spells aren't mind-affecting, that makes Spellsong more valuable.


I second saving finale as an excellent spell, if you want to trade out one of your first level spells.

On top of other spells listed here, I quite enjoy blistering invective, if you have a good intimidate, and for that matter you can use your intimidate skill on it's own in combat to apply the shaken condition. It's not the best use of your action, but it's better than nothing.

Dark Archive

I'm gonna have to echo the crowd here: Unless you can retrain some feats, it'll take ages to make you a non-sucky archer, let alone a competent one. Especially with your low Str and relatively low dex, physical combat will never be your forte.
Doubling down on your support role is IMO the best thing for you to do at this point.

What is your party make-up?

Sovereign Court

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Cussune wrote:
Gallant Inspiration are some 2nd-level spells I like for bards, also.
I love the Inspiration spells in theory - but they don't stack with Inspire Courage. They actually work better for Skalds or the few bard archetypes which get variations of Inspire Courage. (archivist etc.)

Agreed - I once played a bard with this spell and it saw no use at all over 14 levels...


What is your race?
What books are available?

If I may suggest, you do have the ability to craft yourself both a Wayfinder and an Opalescent White Pyramid. The main one is a little pricey, but may be unnecessary. For 1,000 you can craft a wayfinder and a cracked stone and when you put them together you gain the feat Weapon Focus. Using that you can take other feats, for instance Slashing Grace, Fencing Grace, or Starry Grace if you can find a way to nab Weapon Finesse. If you take Weapon Finesse next, you can get an Agile rapier or something.

Or focus on the bow, do the Weapon Focus thing and stick to a shortbow. A Tuned Bowstring could help with that build.

Don't forget to craft a Banner of the Ancient Kings and take the feat Flagbeearer when you can, they work great together as well.

Arcane Strike and Discordant Voice are great feats for both support and upping damage.


Brakiri wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:

Some bad news for you - The bardic performance you want is Inspire Courage, not Inspire Confidence. Inspire Courage and Bless are both Morale bonuses so they do not stack.

When you have a cleric and a bard in the same party, you need to be very careful about your buffs because they tend to step on each other's toes.

As far as your second level spell, Blindness/Deafness is a fun one although you already have Glitterdust. Silence can be an absolute killer debuff.

Not true, inspire courage grants a morale bonus on saves vs. charm and fear, but the attack and damage bonuses are of the type "competence":

Inspire Courage (Su): A 1st level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard’s performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.

AWESOME!


Hi,

thank you all for your input.

I will sort your advices and comments on the weekend and think how i can proceed. The common theme seems to be, that i have either to rebuild the feat selection to get more proficient in combat or to stay with the purely supportive role and improve upon it in that area.

Sovereign Court

You also don't really have the stats for combat.

Scarab Sages

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
You also don't really have the stats for combat.

^This.

That's why I recommended the archetypes I did. Capitalizes on your high Charisma without preventing you from being supportive.


I would sit back and enjoy performing and slinging spells around. There are quite a few good options at level 2 and you can load up on scrolls too.


I think reaching Level 7 will get the juices flowing.
With access to Haste, Slow, Confusion etc., the "badassery" concerning Battlefield Control really kicks in ;)

Can you actually gimme a hint what spells to take on Level 7?
I was thinking about Haste and Confusion (only get 2 on level 7).

Confusion is such a b+!*+..last time my other group nearly passed away because of the confusing gaze of 2 Umber Hulks we encountered..that was NOT funny at all ;)


As a spontaneous caster you have to be very careful on your spell selection. You have too few spells to waste on redundant spells, or spells that loose effectiveness at higher levels. Your selection is not that bad except that you took both comprehend languages and tongues. Both do esentually the same thing except tongues allows you to speak as well as understand. See if you can swap one out for something else.

For your second level spell seriously consider picking up heroism. The bonus is a moral bonus so may not stack with a lot of other spells, or abilities but it long lasting and applies to attack rolls, saves and skills. To anyone else this is a third level spell which is about right. At 6th level the spell last for a full hour.

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A good option is to just grab a wand of Silent Image. Conjure up walls, or earth elementals, etc. to direct the bad guys where you want them to go, or block line of sight for spellcasters. Sure, they'll probably make the DC 11 save to recognize the illusion, but if you play it right, they won't even bother to interact with it.

Silver Crusade

Haste and Good Hope are the key 3rd lvl Bard spells IMHO.


Brakiri wrote:

We are at level 5 (just reached it) at the moment and my stats are as follows:

ST:11
Dex:14
Con:14
Int: 14
Wis:10
Cha:20

Feats:

Skill focus (Perform)
Lingering Performance
Craft Wondrous Item

Spells:
1st Level: Grease, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Hideous Laughter
2nd Level: Glitterdust, Tongue, <open spell known>

So you want to get better in combat...

- pick up a +1 short bow when you can
- pick your level 5 feat as Point Blank Shot
- re-train your feats (role-playing in game if you can for fun)
--- Lingering Performance --> Precise Shot
--- Skill Focus (Perform) --> Rapid Shot
- pick your new 2nd level spell as Heroism

This will get you to:

+9 to hit (+3 BAB +2 DEX +1 Bow +1 PBS +2 Inspire Courage +2 Heroism -2 Rapid Shot)

2x 1d8 + 4 damage (+1 Bow +2 Inspire Courage +1 PBS)

That should be respectable considering that you are also really rocking save DCs and social skills.

At 7th level, apply Haste (spell) and Arcane Strike or Deadly Aim (feat) to really boost your damage potential.

As an added boost:

- re-train to an Arcane Duelist archetype
--- gain Arcane Strike for free
--- Arcane Bond that short bow for half price enchanting


I agree that haste is incredibly useful and if you're not making it your first third-level spell you need to know why it isn't.

I do heroism as a 2nd-level spell (same bonuses, 1 target, lasts much longer) rather than good hope (short duration so has to be cast in combat). Pre-buffing is your key to action economy. ;)

Dispel magic, fear, glibness, invisibility sphere, mad monkeys, major image and phantom steed are all very useful, and you may find other spells on the list that appeal to your playstyle or your group.


Another option:

- Pick up the Flagbearer feat at 5th.
- Pick up Summon Monster II as your 2nd level spell.

You'll be able to summon 1d3 Celestial Eagles that hit pretty hard (3 attacks of 1d4+3 each, not counting smite).

- Enchant a Banner of the Ancient Kings (with your Craft Wondrous Item feat).
- pick up Summon Monster III at 7th level to summon 1d4+1 Celestial Eagles.


tonyz wrote:

I agree that haste is incredibly useful and if you're not making it your first third-level spell you need to know why it isn't.

I do heroism as a 2nd-level spell (same bonuses, 1 target, lasts much longer) rather than good hope (short duration so has to be cast in combat). Pre-buffing is your key to action economy. ;)

Dispel magic, fear, glibness, invisibility sphere, mad monkeys, major image and phantom steed are all very useful, and you may find other spells on the list that appeal to your playstyle or your group.

Heroism doesn't add to damage, good hope does add to damage.

Heroism is only on 1 target, good hope is your entire party.
So there's a good reason to do good hope in combat as to just having 1 person with heroism.


The point is that you can cast heroism well before the battle begins, and have it last over many encounters, instead of having to cast it during combat. You use 2-3 second-level slots for the day, instead of 3-4 third level slots (since not everyone in the party will need heroism). Sure, the extra damage buff is nice, but most of your combat types need to-hit more than they need bonus-damage, in my experience.


Trade a first level spell for Saving Finale ASAP. A first level slot and an immediate action to let an ally reroll a save is the best deal you'll get. If your GM allows you to McGuiver, Solid Note is another long term first level spell. It's Immovable Rod light. Another possibly interesting spell is Detect Metal. Most dangerous people wear or carry metal. Most traps have metal components. Most hidden treasure is metal. Probably ditch comprehend languages and Hideous Laughter first.

For second level, mirror image is good defense. Blur is an okay defensive buff for your friends and as written allows stealth anywhere because it gives concealment. There really aren't very many good second level spells for the long haul. Heroism might be nice, but it'll overlap with your first third level pick.

At third you take Good Hope. The wizard might cast Haste or the cleric Blessing of Fervor so you don't absolutely have to be the one casting haste, but Good Hope is exclusive to bards and I think Iomedean clerics and is really good unless everyone else in your party is an unchained barbarian. Morale attack and damage bonuses from non-spell sources are rare and morale save bonuses are usually just against fear. You also take Haste if no one else is casting it or Blessing of Fervor. Dispel Magic is good because it works on caster level checks not saves so it will always work the same, but it's bad because the CR system guarantees that enemy casters will always be higher level than you. Glibness is another very strong bard exclusive. The bluff modifier for an impossible lie is -20. Glibness gives +20. A merely far-fetched lie is only -10 and in a world with magic a lot of things are merely far-fetched. Another potentially strong spell is Jester's Jaunt, aka Fighterdoken. Mad Monkeys is yet another third level spell of interest. It's the only swarm spell that understands and obeys commands and it makes combat maneuvers based on your caster level and casting stat, which means it scales the way other summons don't and is therefore potentially worth using. It's essentially a death zone for non-psychic casters other than sorcerers as they lose a spell component pouch or divine focus every round. Most weapon users will also find the risk of being disarmed unacceptable, making this a roving zone of battlefield control. One that, since it understands common, you can direct with free action talking rather than move actions like most other directable spells. Oh, and unlike other summon spells it offers no SR check.


Another Option:

Craft a Page of Spell Knowledge (e.g. Magic Missile).

Use UMD to emulate yourself as a sorcerer and blast away.

Or, craft a Ring of Spell Knowledge II to do the same thing (without the UMD check, but costing a 2nd level spell slot).

Bonus for getting a Rod of Lesser Toppling Spell and tripping foes to boot!

EDIT: Keep in mind the Page of Spell Knowledge. It's 500gp to gain any bard 1st level spell and 2000gp to gain any 2nd level bard spell. That's due to your feat Craft Wondrous Items. So, all these spells that people say you should get? Well, you can get all of them on the cheap.

Silver Crusade

You can pre-buff with Good Hope and a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell.


Sure, extended good hope lasts a long time, but extended heroism still lasts 10x longer. ;)


A lot of pathfinder purists will think this is crazy terrible advice, but if you want to diversify your game, take a dip. As a spell caster dipping can be painful, but it can open up some interesting surprises. Dip a level of Gunslinger(Mysterious Stranger) and pick up a double barrel pistol or two. It's a standard action to fire both barrels of a double barrel pistol and with a swift action and a grit point you can add your charisma bonus to both shots. That's 2d8+10 points of damage. Not bad for a tertiary damage option.

It's not something you could do all the time, but if you pick your spots carefully, it could be effective.

Liberty's Edge

tonyz wrote:
Sure, extended good hope lasts a long time, but extended heroism still lasts 10x longer. ;)

Both are good spells, and both have situations where they're preferable. Part of the benefit of being a spontaneous caster is that, just because you know how to cast a spell, doesn't mean you have to. So you can use good hope in those situations where you're heading into a building and you know combat is probably just a couple rooms away. Meanwhile, if you're out traveling in the mountains, heroism might be the better spell. Mind you, I've seen much better use of an extended good hope than I have of heroism. Extended good hope can clear out an entire dungeon, meanwhile, in an adventure where combats can be miles, and therefore hours away, that extra time on heroism is just a waste. Same for the short duration (game time, not real time) dungeon.

I do tend to notice that my high level characters tend to develop an addiction to scrolls of heroism though. And if you can craft them, even better. 100 GP for 50 minutes of +2 to attack and saves is pretty good deal level 12+.

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