We're starting Curse of the Crimson Throne, and after flitting about several different builds, I've finally settled on a Halfling Paladin/Bard/Eldritch Knight. We're doing a 25-point buy for stats, with two traits, and I ended up looking at something like this:
STR 12 (14 - 2)
DEX 18 (16 + 2)
CON 14
INT 11
WIS 9
CHA 16 (14 + 2)
Traits:
Charming
Magical Knack
Alternate Racial Traits:
Low Blow (replaces Keen Senses)
Level Progression:
1 : Paladin
2 : Bard (Arcane Duelist variant)
3 : Paladin
4-9 : Bard
10-19 : Eldritch Knight
20 : Paladin
Feats:
(1) Weapon Finesse
(3) Dervish Dance
(5) Combat Casting
(7) Weapon Focus: Scimitar
(9) Improved Crit: Scimitar
Unfortunately, I really have no idea where to go from there. As for spells, I'll probably focus on self-buffs, and maybe a little out-of-combat shenanigans.
The other party members, as far as I know, are an undisclosed healbot, a barbarian, and an undisclosed arcane caster.
Thanks much!
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Umm...why?!? What is your character's concept that you want to use this to make it fit? If your doing this for power...wow...just no. Your gonna be all over the place and generally are gonna suck. The only role you would kinda excel at with something like this would be a face or possible abuse of leadership...except your feats don't reflect this...and either is just done plain old better with more bard levels.
Try:
Bard 8/Paladin 2/Eldritch Knight 10
or
Bard 4/Paladin 2/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 10
or
Arcane Duelist 16/Dragon Disciple 4
Go with Falchion and Power Attack and such, especially if you go the Dragon Disciple route. Play it like a self-buffing striker. You only need enough charisma to cast your spells, otherwise jack up strength and get a decent Con and some Dex.
Traits: Reactionary is nice with Magical Knack.
Feats: Combat Casting might be a waste if you are buffing long term stuff before combat. Arcane Strike, Power Attack, high strength, crits, and some nice buffs will make you pretty excellent on the damage front.
Thanks much!
This all seems correct.
But it's not good.
The problem is you're doing 1d4+3+9+5 or 1d4+17 damage at level 20, with a +5 weapon and a maxed-out Dex (+4 to dex leveling, +6 belt). 1d4+20 smiting.
A 20th paladin could lay down, same general concept, 1d6+46 a smack when smiting, 1d6+26 when not. A 20th bard could lay down, same general concept but with strength, not capped, around 22 at 20, 1d6+24, while supplying +4 attack and damage to his allies for 48 rounds or so. The paladin has terrible spells, but he has holy sword, multiple auras, multiple immunities, amazing saves, powerful AC.
Paladin/bard/eldritch knight is schizophrenic. It loses out on what makes those classes fantastic to get caster levels. You know what gives you caster levels and class abilities? Bard levels. You know what gives you class abilities and full BAB? Paladin levels.
Why go eldritch knight at all when all it does is give you BAB and caster levels? Consider that you could get more 6th and 5th level spells by going pure bard, cast greater heroism on yourself, perform as a swift action and you have a +8 bonus to attacks and a +4 bonus to damage. It's like you're a full BAB character just with two spells, and you didn't have to spend 10 levels without class features to do it.
At level 4 when you get heroism:
Pala2/Brd2: +3, +1 perform = +4
Brd4: +3, +1 perform, +2 heroism = +6
Pala4: +4, +2 smite and/or +1 divine favor = +6 or +5
At level 5 when a bard gets inspire courage +2, the hybrid goes to +4, +1 for +5 and the bard goes to +3, +2 +2 for +7.
At level 7 when the hybrid gets inspire courage +2:
Pala2/Brd5: +5, +2 perform, +2 heroism = +9
Brd7: +5, +2 perform, +2 heroism, +1 haste = +10, and perform as a move action
Pala7: +7, +3 smite and/or +2 divine favor and/or +1 divine bond: +13 or +12 or +10 or +9 or +8
At level 9 when the hybrid gets haste, the hybrid goes up to +7, +2, +2, +1 for +12. The bard goes to +7, +2, +2, +1 for +12.
At level 13 when the bard gets greater heroism:
Pala2/Brd7/EK4: +11 BAB, +2 perform, +2 heroism, +1 haste = +16
Brd: +9 BAB, +3 perform, +4 greater heroism, +1 haste = +17, starts perform as a swift action
Pala: +13 BAB, +3 smite and/or +3 divine bond and/or +3 divine favor = +22 or +19 or +16
At level 20, just to skip more since I need to sleep:
Pala3/Brd7/EK10: +18 BAB, +2 perform, +4 greater heroism, +1 haste = +25
Brd20: +15 BAB, +4 perform, +4 greater heroism, +1 haste = +24
Pala20: +20 BAB, +4 smite and/or +5 divine bond and/or +3 divine favor = +33 or +29 or +28 or +27 or +25/24/23
I don't see the edge. You only barely edge ahead in the end, lose out on bard class features, have a stunted progression with spells and have a weak smite and lay on hands. I think the only place you're really good is saves and AC, but you can't even wear heavy armor thanks to arcane spell failure.
These are all excellent points. When I said I didn't know where I was going, I was honest.
Guess I'll go look at straight bard builds. Anybody know any good ones?
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Well the first thing you wanna do is figure out what you want to do. Cast spells? Charm people? Blow people up? Control the world around you and laugh maniacally? Swing a sharp shiny object around? Maybe gracefully skewer people while saying witty banter?
I mena for what it looked like you were doing, the arcane duelist bard 20 is just fine. If you want less face aspect, the magus maybe an option as well. Fi 1/wizard 5/EK 10/Wizard 3/Fi 1 is a good blank template that you can use for what ever kind of magic you wanna cast combined with whatever style of fighting you like.
Here is a whole list I developed with help from several other really good posters a while back. It pretty much lays out a variety of all "from good to great" builds that combine martial and magical prowess. Of course a straight Magus and straight Arcane Duelist or Bard can do well, but these are a little more creative : )
Ranged:
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer +3/Eldritch Knight +7/Arcane Archer +1
Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer 3/Eldritch Knight +7
Ranger 6/Wizard 2/Arcane Archer 4/Eldritch Knight 8
Melee-Support:
Witch 1/Fighter 1/Witch +5/Eldritch Knight 5/Witch +2/Eldritch Knight +5/Fighter +1
Arcane Duelist 16/Dragon Disciple 4
Bard 8/Paladin 2/Eldritch Knight 10
Bard 4/Paladin 2/DD 4/Eldritch Knight 10.
Melee:
Paladin 2/Sorceror 4/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 10
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 2/Duelist 5/Eldritch Knight +6
Imo EK is worth it when using a full casting class (Sorc or Wiz).
If you want a gish, you're prob better off with either Fighter 1/Wizard 5/EK10 (I've played Curse of the Crimson Throne, and we only went up to lv15), or Paladin 2/Sorc6/EK10
The main challenge is getting around Arcane Spell Failure.
As a wizard, just prepare your spells as still, if Sorcerer use either Arcane Armor Training (Which I did, good at first but it means no quicken spells for you), Still Spell (but it's a FRA, so make the spell count), or relying on a high dex, Mage Armor and Shield (Getting Bracers of armor when you can).
Or you can just max dex, ignore str, and take weapon finesse/Dervish Dance
If you want to go bard, I recommend just go straight up bard.
3/4 BAB is enough to fight. You get enough buffs and heal spells, and inspire courage