Barbarians are awesome - Two Greater Dirty Tricks at full CMB as standard action at level 6


Advice


The Weapon Trick(One-handed Weapon) feat offers many cool options, but it also inspired me to create the build below.

Core Assumptions wrote:

1)A Combat maneuver is an attack.

Quote:
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

2) An attack that is performed in melee that can benefit from flanking is a melee attack.

3) If you accept 1) and 2), it follows that Combat maneuvers performed in melee are melee attacks.

4) If you accept 3), it follows that a Combat maneuver performed in melee is a valid replacement target for Quick Dirty Trick.

Remember the options provided by Weapon Trick?

One of these is Strike and Seize:
Additional Prerequisite(s): Improved Disarm, base attack bonus +6
As a standard action, you can make a single attack with your weapon and attempt to perform a disarm combat maneuver with your free hand, taking no penalties for two-weapon fighting.

Since the disarm combat maneuver is a melee attack* performed at your highest BAB, you can replace the disarm with a Quick Dirty Trick.
*See 3)

So, as a standard action, you can perform a single weapon attack and a Dirty Trick.

Enter the Barbarian, who adds two things to the build:
a) The Untamed Rager archetype from Dirty Tactics Toolbox grants us Improved and Greater Dirty Trick as bonus feats
b) The Savage Dirty Trick rage power; now we can replace a melee attack with a (Savage) Dirty Trick.

This means, if we use the Strike and Seize trick, we can replace both the disarm maneuver and the weapon attack with a Quick Dirty Trick and a Savage Dirty Trick, respectively.

Finally, the build!

Anne Faire, the Human (Untamed Rager) Barbarian 6

Stats(15-Pointbuy):
18 STR
12 DEX
14 CON
10 INT
12 WIS
7 CHA

Alternate Racial traits: Heart of the Fields(Profession(Gladiator)) - replaces Skilled

Traits: Valknar Alumnus(+1 Dirty Trick CMB, +1 performance combat), Indomitable Faith(+1 Will)

1st: Rage, Fast Movement; Dirty Fighting, Power Attack
2nd: Rage Power(Superstition), Despicable Tactics; Improved Dirty Trick
3rd: Feral Appearance +1; Improved Disarm
4th: Rage Power(Impelling Disarm); +1 STR
5th: Deplorable Tactics; Greater Dirty Trick, Weapon Trick(One-Handed Weapon)
6th: Feral Appearance +2, Rage Power(Savage Dirty Trick)

RETRAIN Power Attack for Quick Dirty Trick at lvl 6, and enjoy your ability to inflict two Greater Dirty Tricks as standard action; in addition to the extra damage and additional penalty from Savage Dirty Trick.

CMB(Dirty Trick): 6 BAB + 4 STR +2 Rage +1 trait +4 feats = +17
CMB(Disarm): 6 BAB + 4 STR +2 Rage +2 feat = +14
===================================================================

BUT what happens if (some of) the Core assumptions are wrong?

If 1) is wrong: Combat maneuvers are not ATTACKS, they are merely 'attack rolls', which are very similar to attacks.

BUT this means that Combat maneuvers do not break Invisibility or Sanctuary, i.e. you can go Invisible and happily sunder the armor of your enemies without becoming visible.

I doubt that this is intended, therefore, I think 1) is correct.

If 2) is wrong: Combat maneuvers performed in melee are not melee attacks, they are merely 'attacks' in melee; compare the difference between an 'attack' and an 'attack action'.

While this interpretation is possible, this would have the consequence that flanking no longer applies a bonus to Combat maneuvers:

Quote:
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

Furthermore, the Dirty Fighting feat is written from a perspective that Combat maneuvers benefit from flanking: Either Combat maneuvers ARE melee attacks, or Dirty fighting doesn't work, as flanking never grants a +2 bonus to attack rolls in the first place for Combat maneuvers.

====================
If, however, both 1) and 2) are true, then 3) follows, and 4) follows from 3); this means the build presented above works.

Enjoy playing Barbarians, the best martial class designed by Paizo!


no matter how much rules lawering you put into it, you won't find a GM that agrees with you that you can substitute a free, specifically named disarm maneuver with another maneuver. And you forgot to cite some rules. Some very impottant ones. Rule #2: GM is always right. Rule #3. Specific trumps general. So while you may be right that in general a combat maneuver is an attack, etc. blabla, that one feat specifically allows you to make a disarm maneuver and nothing else.
Of course, rule #1: Have fun. If you have a group of friends that agree with you, go have fun.

But this doesn't matter, because you're level six and you get 2 attacks per round anyway.


To start with i have to agree with Ellioti.

If you find a GM that would let that fly good on you.

However you can do better with a Bounty Hunter Slayer at level 2.

They can give up SA to add a dirty trick to an attack.

The Exchange

If you just selected free hand maneuver you could get 2 dirty tricks at full bab with a full round action.

Free Hand Maneuver (base attack bonus +6): As a full-round action, you can make a single attack with your weapon and attempt to perform a dirty trick, disarm, drag, reposition, or steal combat maneuver with your free hand, taking no penalties for two-weapon fighting. The combat maneuver provokes attacks of opportunities as normal, unless you have an appropriate ability or feat. You are not considered unarmed for this maneuver, but can’t apply any benefits of your weapon to the combat maneuver check.

Core assumption 1 is wrong. You're not rolling your attack roll, but your CMB roll. Combat maneuvers are not attacks. They count as hostile actions to determine if invisibility drops. If you had high dex, without agile maneuvers, even if you had weapon finesse, you would not be able to add your dex mod instead of your str mod.

Likewise, some things that improve cmb will lower attack, like enlarge person. Using strikd and sieze would net you 1 dirty trick, 1 disarm as a standard action.


Someone said wrote:

BUT what happens if (some of) the Core assumptions are wrong?

If 1) is wrong: Combat maneuvers are not ATTACKS, they are merely 'attack rolls', which are very similar to attacks.

BUT this means that Combat maneuvers do not break Invisibility or Sanctuary, i.e. you can go Invisible and happily sunder the armor of your enemies without becoming visible.

I doubt that this is intended, therefore, I think 1) is correct.

It is explicitly stated that combat maneuvers are attack rolls. What you make out of this is up to discussion, but I agree that an 'attack roll' implies an 'attack'.

====================

Someone said wrote:

If 2) is wrong: Combat maneuvers performed in melee are not melee attacks, they are merely 'attacks' in melee; compare the difference between an 'attack' and an 'attack action'.

While this interpretation is possible, this would have the consequence that flanking no longer applies a bonus to Combat maneuvers.

You are overanalyzing. This is why combat maneuvers benefit from flanking:

Combat; Combat Maneuvers; Performing a Combat Maneuver wrote:

/.../

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

====================

And the feat only lets you make that specified combat maneuver. If not, then it would have mentioned "Disarm, Sunder and Trip" since all three are "in place of an melee attack".


Wonderstell wrote:
You are overanalyzing. This is why combat maneuvers benfit from flanking:

Unfortunately, this is not true. You are correct inasmuch that any bonuses to attack rolls are applied to Combat Maneuvers.

HOWEVER, you get the "bonus to attack rolls from flanking" ONLY if you perform a MELEE ATTACK.

Quote:
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus...

If you don't perform a melee attack, then you never get a bonus that can eventually be added to CMB.

Quote:
And the feat only lets you make that specified combat maneuver. If not, then it would have mentioned "Disarm, Sunder and Trip" since all three are "in place of an melee attack"

Your premise is correct, but your conclusion does not follow.

Perhaps the Author of the feat did not consider that all Combat maneuvers performed in melee are melee attacks, and therefore did not reference these general rules you mentioned.

Otherwise, you could use the argument you presented that the "single weapon attack" made as part of Strike and Seize could not be replaced by a Disarm, Sunder, or Trip, because the single attack is part of SPECIFIC rules and the "use Disarm, Sunder, Trip in place of a melee attack" rule is part of the GENERAL rules.


Thefurmonger wrote:

However you can do better with a Bounty Hunter Slayer at level 2.

They can give up SA to add a dirty trick to an attack.

At level 6, the two-weapon bounty hunter slayer could possibly get in 4 dirty tricks in one round. This does require the slayer to qualify for sneak attack, but luckily there is a dirty trick to blind which opens up your target to sneak attacks.


Ellioti wrote:

no matter how much rules lawering you put into it, you won't find a GM that agrees with you that you can substitute a free, specifically named disarm maneuver with another maneuver. And you forgot to cite some rules. Some very impottant ones. Rule #2: GM is always right. Rule #3. Specific trumps general. So while you may be right that in general a combat maneuver is an attack, etc. blabla, that one feat specifically allows you to make a disarm maneuver and nothing else.

Of course, rule #1: Have fun. If you have a group of friends that agree with you, go have fun.

But this doesn't matter, because you're level six and you get 2 attacks per round anyway.

It does matter, because a standard action allows me to move; I do not have pounce at level 6, so I'm looking for a way to move and still perform two Dirty Tricks.

Regarding "Specific trumps general"

Let's look at the particular 'specific' and 'general' rules here:

1) General rule: Combat maneuvers are melee attacks.
2) Specific rule #1: Strike and Seize allows a single weapon attack and a disarm maneuver.
3) Specific rule #2: Quick Dirty Trick allows you to perform a dirty trick in place of a melee attack with the highest BAB, once per round.

Specific trumps general, right?

What about specific and specific interactions?

First, you use Strike and Seize to "trump the normal rules" and use a standard action for Attack & Disarm.

Then, you use Quick Dirty Trick to "trump the normal rules" and look for:

Quote:
melee attack with the highest BAB

Oh, the disarm attempt from Strike and Seize qualifies?

Excellent, now you can use the SPECIFIC rules from Quick Dirty Trick WITH the specific rules from Strike and Seize, as they do not contradict each other, and use a standard action to "Attack & Dirty Trick".


The intent of the feat is very clear. So this isn't about what the feat is supposed to be used for, but how we can cheeze it.

But why not step our game up?

Aid Another is an 'attack roll' made in melee combat. Aid Another benefits from flanking, therefore it is a 'melee attack'.

Then you can make combat maneuvers in place of all aid another checks, correct?


*beep beep beep*
*popopopopop*
Who else wants some popcorn?


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I love it when people come to the forum with their twisted rules interpretations and when everyone else tells them "No, it doesn't work that way" they always argue endlessly to try to validate their interpretation. They're never looking to be corrected, they want their understanding corroborated.

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