Goblin mental stats


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Does anyone else find it sort of strange that goblins are basically described as universally stupid, reckless, incompetent and cowardly despite having average baseline intelligence and wisdom?

In many ways goblins are often described as even more backwards than orcs and even some examples of trolls, which doesn't seem particularly in line with the race's mechanics.


Eh, don't pay too much mind.

In theory, Goblins should have higher Charisma - they love jokes (cruel ones though), songs (nasty ones though) and should probably be good dancers because of how emotional they are (and well-coordinated).

In my opinion, the less racial features there are the better.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Reckless and cowardly really have nothing to do with stats...

Incompetence is usually framed in terms of things goblin culture places little value on- they may be lousy painters, but they've got a real knack for writing song lyrics and making the trash of other species into useful objects.

As for stupid... well, that depiction waxes and wanes. The comics make them seem stupid, but most of the time they seem more crazy than dimwitted. A creature can be fairly smart and still out to lunch in terms of sanity.


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I get the impression that goblin ability scores, or at least the Cha penalty, comes from D&D.

The Cha penalty (and lack of Int and Wis penalties) fits the D&D goblin quite well. They're nasty, unfunny cowards with very little force of personality, but they're not stupid. It's always felt to me like the Pathfinder goblins got those goblins' stats, and are now stuck with them because it's too late to change things.

Pathfinder's goblins always struck me as the Wis penalty sorts. Maybe Int penalty as well, but actually quite charismatic. Very strong force of personality.


Cole Deschain wrote:
Reckless and cowardly really have nothing to do with stats...

Cowardice, not so much I suppose, though the lack of mental fortitude points toward wisdom issues.

Quote:
Incompetence is usually framed in terms of things goblin culture places little value on- they may be lousy painters, but they've got a real knack for writing song lyrics and making the trash of other species into useful objects.

I dunno, it seems to be a pretty general incompetence. Goblins can't farm or sustain any real society or make anything at all. They aren't even good at organizing or planning despite being essentially driven by war and banditry and scavenging.

It's not even really universal that they're any good at writing songs, just that they like them.

It does seem odd that a race known for their love of music and with a culture more or less built on indimidation and fear that they have a cha penalty though.

Quote:
As for stupid... well, that depiction waxes and wanes. The comics make them seem stupid, but most of the time they seem more crazy than dimwitted. A creature can be fairly smart and still out to lunch in terms of sanity.

Like I said, they often seem to be.. basically bad at everything and very ineffectual at most tasks. You're right about sanity, though even then sanity and general togetherness is often associated with wisdom.

Quote:
I get the impression that goblin ability scores, or at least the Cha penalty, comes from D&D.

That could be true. The only difference between 3.5's goblin stats and PF goblin stats is that PF goblins get a +4 to dex instead of a +2.

Though goblins were often written pretty stupid in 3.X too, partially owing to the game's original sample goblin sporting a low int score. Not because of the race itself, but rather because that's where the low score in the character's array went. A lot of later writers appeared to assume otherwise though.


Yeah, goblins have three major problems in my mind:

1. Goblins make bad bards. A -2 Charisma? Really? They should really have a tiefling-style exception for bards. I think there's an archetype that makes up for this, though.

2. Goblins should have lower Wisdom, and probably Intelligence.

3. They should really be Chaotic.

But all of this is just a product of holdovers, so I can't really resent them over it. Feel free to houserule it in your games, especially for would-be goblin PCs.


Remember that they aren't very well informed. Look at what they put ranks into: Ride, Stealth, Swim. None of those scream "I know stuff!" Those are survival skills for goblins. Along with the Wisdom 9, they have a penalty to all of their Wisdom skills.

Appraise: 5% chance of determining the value of an item.
Craft: They can make stuff, but don't expect anything awesome.
Heal: All checks are at -1. Goblins don't really know how to treat wounds well.
Knowledge: Anything over DC 10 is just something they aren't going to be able to figure out.
Linguistics: Reading and stuff?
Perception: It's easier to sneak up on them.
Profession: There aren't many goblin entrepreneurs for a reason.
Sense Motive: It's easier to fool them.
Spellcraft: Ain't nobody got time for that.
Survival: They aren't always prepared for the storm.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Yeah, goblins have three major problems in my mind:

1. Goblins make bad bards. A -2 Charisma? Really? They should really have a tiefling-style exception for bards. I think there's an archetype that makes up for this, though.

2. Goblins should have lower Wisdom, and probably Intelligence.

3. They should really be Chaotic.

But all of this is just a product of holdovers, so I can't really resent them over it. Feel free to houserule it in your games, especially for would-be goblin PCs.

#3 isn't a holdover, really. Paizo decided to assign each of the three Core goblinoid types to each of the three Evil alignments. And I think it would have been a better fit to swap bugbears' and goblins' alignments.


No, it's a holdover. Paizo decided to run with it and emphasize the "three faces of goblinoid evil", but the alignment placements are firmly 3.0 legacies.

Frankly, bugbears and goblins are both chaotic evil. They're both destructive without rhyme or reason, they're both unpredictable, they both sacrifice their own interest for what they regard as "fun". The alignment shtick doesn't work, not with how Paizo's written these races. But it doesn't really matter.


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I had a Goblin with a 16 Intelligence and played him like I always play goblins... which is how they are describe in the Bestiary. Likewise, I played a 10 Intelligence Goblin that could act like any other "longshank" when he had to. Ability scores aren't very good indicators sometimes.


Gluttony wrote:

I get the impression that goblin ability scores, or at least the Cha penalty, comes from D&D.

The Cha penalty (and lack of Int and Wis penalties) fits the D&D goblin quite well. They're nasty, unfunny cowards with very little force of personality, but they're not stupid. It's always felt to me like the Pathfinder goblins got those goblins' stats, and are now stuck with them because it's too late to change things.

Pathfinder's goblins always struck me as the Wis penalty sorts. Maybe Int penalty as well, but actually quite charismatic. Very strong force of personality.

For some reason, I keep on thinking that their origin had something to do with the underdark (probably since orcs, another traditional fodder enemies, have that association; also, the darkvision).

Now with underdark, everything that isn't an insane caster/manipulator like drow (who came from a race with decent magic to begin with) end up with a cha penalty. Cause small, cramped spaces, filled with predators, with little to eat, etc. seems crushing to things like 'self esteem'. Plus, getting dominated by monster of the week and mad god radiation.

Heck, even dwarves have this problem. They came from underground (and drove the orcs up) and have the cha penalty. It also affects their culture, since their version of 'lawful good' has a rather... 'kill 'em all' vibe. Which makes sense in the harsh environment.


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So what I'm getting from this, lemeres, is something like, "Kobolds are meant to rule and drow are an accident."


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
So what I'm getting from this, lemeres, is something like, "Kobolds are meant to rule and drow are an accident."

Well... Drow are an accident... kinda...


Azten wrote:
I had a Goblin with a 16 Intelligence and played him like I always play goblins... which is how they are describe in the Bestiary. Likewise, I played a 10 Intelligence Goblin that could act like any other "longshank" when he had to. Ability scores aren't very good indicators sometimes.

My goblin alchemist in our Iron Gods campaign is up to a 28 Int - he has a wicked intellect and a sharp wit, but the way that I play him, he has a very warped/poor understanding of morality. He ran away from his tribe when he was very young (when he realized they were all crazy idiots) and was lucky enough to be taken in and mentored by a gnome noctumancer, but he still can't help but be shaped by that childhood.

As such, he's your typical "super-scientist", consumed with research and advancing his theories without giving ANY thought as to whether or not his experiments are corrupt crimes against nature. Whenever he crosses a line and makes his friends uncomfortable, he just assumes that it's because they're uneducated simpletons that can't appreciate his work.

He just doesn't "get" morality.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
So what I'm getting from this, lemeres, is something like, "Kobolds are meant to rule and drow are an accident."

Kobolds... never let anything get them down. They firmly believe in their "inevitable" domination.

The coal mines were not very gentle on their lungs though. And that mystery meat certainly isn't good for building up muscle.

Dark Archive

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Gluttony wrote:

I get the impression that goblin ability scores, or at least the Cha penalty, comes from D&D.

The Cha penalty (and lack of Int and Wis penalties) fits the D&D goblin quite well. They're nasty, unfunny cowards with very little force of personality, but they're not stupid. It's always felt to me like the Pathfinder goblins got those goblins' stats, and are now stuck with them because it's too late to change things.

Pathfinder's goblins always struck me as the Wis penalty sorts. Maybe Int penalty as well, but actually quite charismatic. Very strong force of personality.

Swapping the Cha penalty for Wis makes perfect sense. Goblins are good singers or at least enthusiastic singers and there are goblin Bards in the very first encounter of the very first PF adventure path, Rise of the Runelords. Goblins also feel like the should be good sorcerers and Oracles, not Clerics.

Goblins are at the very least interesting, hence no Cha penalty. They are suicidally reckless though and should take a Wis hit.

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