Great Wyrm Gets Instant Killed?


Rules Questions

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We are on Act II of our campaign, we had been sent by a Court Wizard of the city of which my Ranger lived to acquire his personally favorite staff.

We tracked it into a harsh and hostile range of mountains of which never seemed to stop snowing. Eventually we reached this cave, and my character had all the signs to know that this was a dragons lair.

I learned about the very bad side effect of portable holes and bags of holding way earlier in the campaign, and my character decided, well, to prop open two bags of holding on each side of the cave.

I had 3 portable holes, of which I attached 2 of them in a fashion to my arrows to fire into the bags I had placed.

After luring the dragon out to where I had placed the bags, we decided it was a DC30 shot on both. I successfully rolled a natural 20 on the first shot, and made another successful shot with a DC33 or something of that sort.

Paizo never really explains the effect of the Portable Hole -> Bag of Holding effect other than it's a portal that sucks anything in within 10ft of it's epicenter. My thought was it's equivalent to a black hole, and since I used 2 bags and caused the dragon to be sucked into both, the Astral rift tore it in half, killing it immediately.


I don't think there would actually be a rules clarification, but it seems reasonable that a dragon cut in half from some sort of planar vacuum would die.

Now if the WHOLE creature was sucked into the 10 foot radius, it's possible they'd be alive in some other plane, a plane probably full of several low wisdom adventurers and tarrasques.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I would rule that your first shot activated the portal effect and that the dragon was sucked into it (if it was within 10ft of its epicenter) before your second shot hit.

Simultaneously almost never happens in PRFPG


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Hmmm....rich campaign....if you have 3 spare portable holes to destroy. And then a GM that that effect happen. Makes for a great campaign story though. Also assuming you have now created a Black Hole, sort of a world ending event. Not sure long bow range puts you far enough away to consider surviving the event either.


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If GM decides that +36 perception 22 INT creature falls for it and that 2 astral rifts can tear creature apart then its legit. 45k gold trap.


Wouldnt your arrow ruin the bag of holding, since it's a piercing weapon and all?


Yeah, mistake #1 was allowing you to actually weaponize the bag of holding/portable hole combination.

The rules don't say you can make it into a weapon, so you can't. They do tell you what happens if you put one into the other, but there aren't rules explaining how to attach it to an arrow or anything else so it simply isn't possible.

You're GM not ruling this way is what has led to problems.


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Claxon, that's insane talk. You fold up the portable hole and use sovereign glue to attach it to an arrow, then fire said arrow into the open bag of holding. Simple.

Saying their aren't rules for it so it's impossible doesn't make sense either, since you could simply use the Craft(bows) skill to make this!


Yeah the dragon is dead, but with an int of 22 and a very good perception it should have known something was up when it saw the bags. Even if the bags were invisible it still has blindsense. At that point it goes back into the cave and comes up with a new strategy.


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Azten wrote:

Claxon, that's insane talk. You fold up the portable hole and use sovereign glue to attach it to an arrow, then fire said arrow into the open bag of holding. Simple.

Saying their aren't rules for it so it's impossible doesn't make sense either, since you could simply use the Craft(bows) skill to make this!

It's not insane talk, its a valid reason to deny players something that was not intended to be weaponized and is a holdover from very early editions of the game.

In truth, I'm not normally so stringent on things. I do allow for improvisation, but we all know this is an obviously overpowered thing to allow so finding any grounds to deny is valid. The fact that its not explicitly allowed is grounds enough in my book to deny something that is overpowered.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Claxon wrote:
Azten wrote:

Claxon, that's insane talk. You fold up the portable hole and use sovereign glue to attach it to an arrow, then fire said arrow into the open bag of holding. Simple.

Saying their aren't rules for it so it's impossible doesn't make sense either, since you could simply use the Craft(bows) skill to make this!

It's not insane talk, its a valid reason to deny players something that was not intended to be weaponized and is a holdover from very early editions of the game.

In truth, I'm not normally so stringent on things. I do allow for improvisation, but we all know this is an obviously overpowered thing to allow so finding any grounds to deny is valid. The fact that its not explicitly allowed is grounds enough in my book to deny something that is overpowered.

I don't know if this is really "overpowered", especially considering it costs 45k gold and requires the target to fall for a trap.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Also, the dragon isn't dead, they're probably just really confused on the astral plane. Depending on how capable this dragon is this might as well be death, or just a round or two of inconvienence as it finds a way back.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If the rift doesn't leave a crater in the stone it was on, it doesn't have the pull to automatically rip a creature apart. The dragon is intact on the Astral.


thewastedwalrus wrote:
Also, the dragon isn't dead, they're probably just really confused on the astral plane. Depending on how capable this dragon is this might as well be death, or just a round or two of inconvienence as it finds a way back.

I misread it. I thought it said the creature drawn inside was destroyed, but it says the portable hole and the bag of holding are destroyed.

If the dragon has planeshift he can come back. If not he is a dragon(Wyrm) and still commands some respect in any plane. If he can come into contact with some powerful being there he can still come back. The GM now has to decide if he wants that to happen.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

If you're throwing that much at it, I'd say that would work. Now that you've triggered a black hole inside of a cave, how prepared are you to dig yourself out of an extreme cave-in?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Claxon wrote:
The rules don't say you can make it into a weapon, so you can't. They do tell you what happens if you put one into the other, but there aren't rules explaining how to attach it to an arrow or anything else so it simply isn't possible.

This is how roleplay dies: you can only interact with the world according to a prescribed list of actions from a pre-written menu. No getting immersed in the world and thinking about how you could interact with your environment, just picking a command from the action menu.


Claxon wrote:
Azten wrote:

Claxon, that's insane talk. You fold up the portable hole and use sovereign glue to attach it to an arrow, then fire said arrow into the open bag of holding. Simple.

Saying their aren't rules for it so it's impossible doesn't make sense either, since you could simply use the Craft(bows) skill to make this!

It's not insane talk, its a valid reason to deny players something that was not intended to be weaponized and is a holdover from very early editions of the game.

In truth, I'm not normally so stringent on things. I do allow for improvisation, but we all know this is an obviously overpowered thing to allow so finding any grounds to deny is valid. The fact that its not explicitly allowed is grounds enough in my book to deny something that is overpowered.

Except it is explicitly allowed. If the rules say what happens when you perform XYZ, and the players perform XYZ, then the result of what you did, well, happens. There's no excuse for anything outside of that to occur besides "I'm the GM and I hate that you gimped my BBEG Dragon, so I'm going to c!@#block your attempt to make a boss battle easy."

To which point, I say fine. But it's not a rules answer. It's an ethics and playstyle answer, which the OP didn't ask. He wanted to know if by the rules, the effects of what happens. And they're fairly clear as to what happens:

Bag of Holding wrote:
If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: the hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.

So, if the answer is anything except what is listed there, then it's houseruling. Suggesting houserules are an authentic rules answer destroys your credibility of the answer you provided (which would be, in fact, a houserule).

@ Jiggy: The success stories of Final Fantasy and other similar JRPG genres would like to have a word with you; they're still alive and kicking, and quite virulently, too. I don't like such games, but clearly it's appreciated a lot more than you care to admit.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
@ Jiggy: The success stories of Final Fantasy and other similar JRPG genres would like to have a word with you; they're still alive and kicking, and quite virulently, too. I don't like such games, but clearly it's appreciated a lot more than you care to admit.

You seem to be under the impression that I said something very different than what I actually wrote. Feel free to re-read and try again. Or not. Your call.


Darksol the Painbringer tabletop RPG games are not the same as video game RPG's. The appeal is different so what works and keeps a video game going won't work at a table so comparing them because they both say "RPG" is not going to always be valid.

Jiggy said might not have said "table top roleplaying", but he shouldn't have to.


Jiggy wrote:
Claxon wrote:
The rules don't say you can make it into a weapon, so you can't. They do tell you what happens if you put one into the other, but there aren't rules explaining how to attach it to an arrow or anything else so it simply isn't possible.
This is how roleplay dies: you can only interact with the world according to a prescribed list of actions from a pre-written menu. No getting immersed in the world and thinking about how you could interact with your environment, just picking a command from the action menu.

If you read my second post Jiggy you would see that I'm not actually so strict on all things, but things that effectively one shot an enemy without chance for save or recourse are things I simply wouldn't allow to work.

This little tactic is one of them.

Some things aren't good for the game even if you view them as "inventive" or "role playing".

It's roleplaying to have a character who uses simulacrums of themselves to overpower any encounter and be virtually undefeatable, or using simulacrums of Efreeti to get lots of wishes.

This isn't as broken as doing those things, it still doesn't mean I should allow it.


Jiggy wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
@ Jiggy: The success stories of Final Fantasy and other similar JRPG genres would like to have a word with you; they're still alive and kicking, and quite virulently, too. I don't like such games, but clearly it's appreciated a lot more than you care to admit.
You seem to be under the impression that I said something very different than what I actually wrote. Feel free to re-read and try again. Or not. Your call.

I appreciate the clarification. But it doesn't change my point.

An RPG is still an RPG, even if the design ethics and mechanics change (i.e. Table-Top compared to Video Game). All I'm saying that linear gameplay (or to be more contextually accurate, "railroading gameplay") is still valued by a lot of people, and a lot of them are treated as classics (such as the Final Fantasy or Elder Scrolls franchise). Those people usually play those kinds of games in converse to this kind of game, and treat them as "roleplaying games" just the same.

You also went ahead to describe what a lot of those classic franchises had for mechanics: interacting with a set and described world with a set and described list of actions you can take, with a set and described pair of options you could work with for creating your character, and that's it. It's limiting, true, and as you said, is "how roleplaying dies."

If that's "how roleplaying dies", why are there over a dozen Final Fantasy games, and about a half-a-dozen Elder Scrolls games, that use the same formulas which result in the death of roleplaying? Because clearly, people like and appreciate those games just as much as they would (or would not) appreciate non-linear/railroading games.


Given the nature of magical forces in the Pathfinder system, I'd have to presume that the pulling effect hits a dead stop once it gets to the 10' range. Fireball, for example, creates fire in a given radius, but no appreciable heat or pressure wave is produced outside that radius. By the same reasoning, the bag/hole trick would not create a "black hole" in the normal sense, but a "gate" (as the rules, themselves, explicitly state) and the effect of that gate is to draw in any creatures (not even objects, but creatures specifically) within 10' of it and anything outside that 10' is absolutely unaffected. So it would not affect the structure of the cave and cause a collapse. Also, it would not "shear off" a creature that is bigger than the effect because being affected by an area effect in Pathfinder is binary; you either are or you aren't. If a large creature is partially standing in the area of a Fireball, it takes full damage no matter how large or small a proportion of their tactical space intersects with the spell's area of effect. Hence, logically, we have two entirely separate binary conditions; are you inside the area of effect (t/f) and are you outside the area of effect (t/f). And only the first of those, whether you are inside, is being checked to determine if you get sucked into the gate. If you straddle the boundary, then you are both inside and outside at the same time; but that means you are inside and, if you are inside, your whole body gets sucked in. Ergo, logically, the dragon must be alive and well in the Astral plane, probably very pissed off, and weighing his options, planning what to do next. Maybe he will make the Astral his new home. Maybe he'll try to get back immediately to extract revenge. Or maybe he'll let it simmer, wait until the party has forgotten and strike when they don't expect it at a very inopportune time.


Using your fireball example, would only part of a creature take fire damage and the rest of it doesn't if it's entire body wasn't in a the radius of the spell? Do body parts have separate hit points now?


Claxon wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Claxon wrote:
The rules don't say you can make it into a weapon, so you can't. They do tell you what happens if you put one into the other, but there aren't rules explaining how to attach it to an arrow or anything else so it simply isn't possible.
This is how roleplay dies: you can only interact with the world according to a prescribed list of actions from a pre-written menu. No getting immersed in the world and thinking about how you could interact with your environment, just picking a command from the action menu.

If you read my second post Jiggy you would see that I'm not actually so strict on all things, but things that effectively one shot an enemy without chance for save or recourse are things I simply wouldn't allow to work.

This little tactic is one of them.

Some things aren't good for the game even if you view them as "inventive" or "role playing".

It's roleplaying to have a character who uses simulacrums of themselves to overpower any encounter and be virtually undefeatable, or using simulacrums of Efreeti to get lots of wishes.

This isn't as broken as doing those things, it still doesn't mean I should allow it.

Then that means Coup De Graces don't provide a Fortitude Save or Die (just the increased damage), spells and effects which create a Save or Die effect don't exist, and if an attack would bring you from Alive -> Dead (such as a lucky critical, or even a Coup de Grace), it just doesn't work. You know what we call those kinds of GMs? Punch-pullers. Which as I've said before, is fine for whatever game or table you run.

But you keep using how you run things as a GM as valid rules answers. They're not. By the rules, if a creature is hit by a Coup De Grace, they must make a Fortitude Save or Die Instantly. By the rules, if a creature is affected by a spell which instantly kills a creature (Disintegrate), they must make a Saving Throw or Die Instantly. By the rules, if a creature is critically hit for all of his hit remaining hit points, he Dies Instantly.

These are all answers BY THE RULES. Which is what the OP asked for. He didn't ask "This situation came up, what should I do as a GM," at which point your answer would be valid, he basically said "The book doesn't explain what happens when so-and-so occurs, does anyone know what does happen?" In which case I cited the answer by the rules.

And if you want to be technical with this situation? The Dragon isn't dead. It's in the Astral Plane. If the Dragon had access to a Plane Shift or similar ability to transverse planes, all this did was delay him. A lot of people presume "He's dead," because the Astral Plane is "A silvery void that connects the Material and Inner Planes to the Outer Planes, the astral plane is the medium through which the souls of the departed travel to the afterlife." But it then goes on to say that "A traveler in the Astral Plane sees the plane as a vast empty void periodically dotted with tiny motes of physical reality calved off of the countless planes it overlaps. Powerful spellcasters utilize the Astral Plane for a tiny fraction of a second when they teleport, or they can use it to travel between planes with spells like astral projection."

That passage alone tells me that things outside of dead souls can exist in the Astral Plane. So no, the Dragon isn't dead; at least not yet. It's in an Astral Plane. This means that it sees the souls of the dead, and exists in a plane superficial to the Material Plane. So, if it has a means to travel across Planes, (possibly Teleport, though Plane Shift and similar spells work better), all this did was delay the Dragon. If it doesn't, then it'll eventually die due to hunger, suffocation, etc., in which case if the Dragon is truly vengeful, it'll become a spirit and haunt/attack the PCs down the road (especially since it's on the fast track to the Ethereal Plane, where the souls of the dead go to exist).


My other question would be;

The Dragon is Colossal, would it actually be able to fit its entire body into the rift before the rift closed? Assuming that it did when the rift closed it would be ripped clean in half?

Does the rift it create cause a black-hole like effect where it Spaghettifies everything caught in it's radius of effect when pulled in?

We'll just cut that the 2nd rift didn't happen at this point.

This is the first time I had thought to try something like this, and seemed cheaty and too effective due to it's undescribed nature. Needless to say, pretty sure our DM won't let me near another bag of holding or portable hole ever again... Paizo should clarify the PH>BoH Rift effect in a small detail. What it's maximum capability is or something of the sort.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
If it doesn't, then it'll eventually die due to hunger, suffocation, etc., in which case if the Dragon is truly vengeful, it'll become a spirit and haunt/attack the PCs down the road (especially since it's on the fast track to the Ethereal Plane, where the souls of the dead go to exist).

Yeah and if it does then I'll tell its ghost it got punked by a mid-level Ranger with an intelligence score of 12. Say that and I took all his treasure and offered it to the deity Dahak, just to really piss him off.


When I was a child I used a similar strategy to catch street cats.

And was pretty easy to catch them. When I grew up I saw that doing that was not right, and stopped doing so.

Now. By the rules. If your GM consider that catching a street cat -in a trap- is as easy as catching a Great Wyrm, I'll give it a go, but I have to add, under those circumstances, that we are not playing the same game.

This case of creativity reminds me of the Swan Boat Token. We all know what was said about it, and it's quite the same as Claxon has said. Swan Boat Tokens were not meant to be drop over anybody's head.


Ahzariel wrote:

My other question would be;

The Dragon is Colossal, would it actually be able to fit its entire body into the rift before the rift closed? Assuming that it did when the rift closed it would be ripped clean in half?

Does the rift it create cause a black-hole like effect where it Spaghettifies everything caught in it's radius of effect when pulled in?

We'll just cut that the 2nd rift didn't happen at this point.

This is the first time I had thought to try something like this, and seemed cheaty and too effective due to it's undescribed nature. Needless to say, pretty sure our DM won't let me near another bag of holding or portable hole ever again... Paizo should clarify the PH>BoH Rift effect in a small detail. What it's maximum capability is or something of the sort.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
If it doesn't, then it'll eventually die due to hunger, suffocation, etc., in which case if the Dragon is truly vengeful, it'll become a spirit and haunt/attack the PCs down the road (especially since it's on the fast track to the Ethereal Plane, where the souls of the dead go to exist).

I already gave this answer: By the rules, the rift opens a portal to the Astral Plane, anything within 10 feet is pulled through that portal, possessions and all, and then the rift seals, trapping whatever was pulled through onto the Astral Plane with no return trip. That's it.

The Dragon isn't dead, it's not cut in half, it's not "spaghettified," it's just pulled into the Astral Plane along with a 20 foot diameter's worth of ground, oxygen, etc. At which point, the Dragon will either A. Teleport back into the Material Plane, or B. Starve/Suffocate to death because he can't eat/breathe anything in the Astral Plane.

Also, it's not "cheaty" or "too effective," Portable Holes and Bags of Holding are very expensive, and usually have much more value to the PCs instead of turning it into an anti-BBEG device. This isn't something that characters can just do on-the-fly, they require specific magic items, specific planning, and a lot of money to burn (which they probably won't get back from the creature(s) they killed).

Grand Lodge

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
At which point, the Dragon will either A. Teleport back into the Material Plane, or B. Starve/Suffocate to death because he can't eat/breathe anything in the Astral Plane.

Slight correction here: The astral plane has breathable air and as it's Timeless the dragon can't actually starve while on it (although it could retroactively starve once it leaves).


Sorry, forgoing the +38 Perception, the eons of knowledge and the 22 INT, is quite 'cheaty'.

Could it work? Yes. Would I let it work? No. And the reasons for that are written in the previous paragraph. So, it is a nice trap for cats, but not for Great Wyrms.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Definitely A.

Gamemastery Guide wrote:
Timeless: Age, hunger, thirst, afflictions (such as diseases, curses, and poisons), and natural healing don't function in the Astral Plane, though they resume functioning when the traveler leaves the Astral Plane.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
@ Jiggy: The success stories of Final Fantasy and other similar JRPG genres would like to have a word with you; they're still alive and kicking, and quite virulently, too. I don't like such games, but clearly it's appreciated a lot more than you care to admit.
You seem to be under the impression that I said something very different than what I actually wrote. Feel free to re-read and try again. Or not. Your call.
I appreciate the clarification. But it doesn't change my point.

I wasn't trying to change your point. You're 0/2 now on taking a moment to understand what someone has said before replying (well, "replying"). As a result, I won't be devoting any more time to you unless you first demonstrate having devoted some time to what I've already written.

Claxon wrote:
If you read my second post Jiggy you would see that I'm not actually so strict on all things,

I wasn't commenting on your GMing style as a whole, only on the specific practice to which I was responding.

Quote:
but things that effectively one shot an enemy without chance for save or recourse are things I simply wouldn't allow to work.

Okay.

Quote:
Some things aren't good for the game even if you view them as "inventive" or "role playing".

If roleplaying isn't good for a roleplaying game, then there's probably a deeper problem that isn't fixed by vetoing the roleplay.

Quote:
It's roleplaying to have a character who uses simulacrums of themselves to overpower any encounter and be virtually undefeatable, or using simulacrums of Efreeti to get lots of wishes.

See above.

Quote:
This isn't as broken as doing those things, it still doesn't mean I should allow it.

I never said you should allow it.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

How strong is the suction? Yes, a medium sized creature wouldn't stand a chance, but something the size of a great Wyrm may have the strength to resist the suction.
Also, the suction happens in an instant and done. Are the scales of the Wyrm strong enough to resist the suction penetrating into the vulnerable areas?


Numarak wrote:

Sorry, forgoing the +38 Perception, the eons of knowledge and the 22 INT, is quite 'cheaty'.

Could it work? Yes. Would I let it work? No. And the reasons for that are written in the previous paragraph. So, it is a nice trap for cats, but not for Great Wyrms.

How is it forgone? Perception deals with seeing things as they actually are, such as spotting secret doors, seeing enemies in cover, etc. Nobody is disputing that the Dragon can't see the containers being launched, or the arrows being shot.

What's being disputed is that the Dragon doesn't understand why those events are occurring. There are two containers being attached to arrows, why? They are firing two arrows in quick succession inside of each other, why? Perception doesn't answer these question. All Perception answers is "Is that really happening?"

When it comes to reading a person's intentions or goals, understanding why someone or something is behaving in a certain manner, that falls under Sense Motive, NOT Perception.

Also note that regardless of if they're Perception or Sense Motive, those are Wisdom-Based Skills, as such their Wisdom Score should be consulted, not their Intelligence Score.

@ Jiggy: If I apparently have no idea what you're talking about, then by all means spill and explain yourself, because I seem to be missing a key component to your statement. I don't really have the patience to sit here and try to come up with some crazy backwoods scheme to try and understand what you're trying to say, especially when I have considered what you said, numerous times, and you keep saying that I've failed to do so.


Jiggy wrote:
Claxon wrote:
The rules don't say you can make it into a weapon, so you can't. They do tell you what happens if you put one into the other, but there aren't rules explaining how to attach it to an arrow or anything else so it simply isn't possible.
This is how roleplay dies: you can only interact with the world according to a prescribed list of actions from a pre-written menu. No getting immersed in the world and thinking about how you could interact with your environment, just picking a command from the action menu.

...you feeling okay, Jiggy?


Charles Scholz wrote:

How strong is the suction? Yes, a medium sized creature wouldn't stand a chance, but something the size of a great Wyrm may have the strength to resist the suction.

Also, the suction happens in an instant and done. Are the scales of the Wyrm strong enough to resist the suction penetrating into the vulnerable areas?

Doesn't matter. If it's within the area, it's taken in, no questions asked.

If you want to play that sort of silly game, then why do Fireballs, which target only one square of an affected Large or larger creature, still deal full damage to that creature, even though maybe only a foot or leg was affected, compared to their body, face, etc.?

The rules are abstract and concise for a reason. When you try to put this amount of realism into the game, it falls apart. There are no rules which state that creatures gain bonuses or reduce damage/effects of things that only partially affect them.

Saying that there are would be houseruling.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Darksol, I see your points. How about something in-between?
Anything Large or smaller would be sucked in instantly, no save.
Anything Huge or greater would take damage. I would treat it as maximum falling damage, 20d6.

20d6 ⇒ (1, 1, 4, 2, 5, 6, 4, 1, 3, 2, 1, 1, 5, 2, 4, 5, 1, 4, 5, 6) = 63


A houserule that does not, at all, work out like the items say they do at all.


Not really. There are two Bags of Holding in the entrance of my lair. Those I see with a perception check. Maybe I, initially, do not know that those are Bags of Holding. But then, with my stupidily low WIS of 23 I walk into them with no further inspection.

Then I just meow while the vortex shuffles me into the Astral Plane.

Next round I cast Limited Wish and Plane Shift back.

Meow!

Or. Just or. If I was GMing I would tell my player that that trap probably won't work well with a Great Wyrm.

I've been working with a Red Great Wyrm, but under OP description, my guess is that it should be a White Great Wyrm. Considering that those are just INT 18 and have Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana) and Sense Motive well into the thirties, again, and just maybe, meow.

But we can not say how to GM a game. So, given that, as I said before, the trap *could work*. Never said the contrary, although as others have pointed out, you can only activate one rift, since the time does not stop for you to fire the second arrow.

Finally is not just that I would or would not disallow this strategy, the point is that I would not like any GM to use it against me such like:

GM: you walk out of the tavern. You've been torn apart by indescriptible forces.
Me: Oh! Nice game! Meow!
GM: What would your next character be?
Me: Can't I be resurrected?
GM: Nopes. Nothing of you was left to be found. Meow!


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Then that means Coup De Graces don't provide a Fortitude Save or Die (just the increased damage), spells and effects which create a Save or Die effect don't exist, and if an attack would bring you from Alive -> Dead (such as a lucky critical, or even a Coup de Grace), it just doesn't work. You know what we call those kinds of GMs? Punch-pullers. Which as I've said before, is fine for whatever game or table you run.

But you keep using how you run things as a GM as valid rules answers. They're not. By the rules, if a creature is hit by a Coup De Grace, they must make a Fortitude Save or Die Instantly. By the rules, if a creature is affected by a spell which instantly kills a creature (Disintegrate), they must make a Saving Throw or Die Instantly. By the rules, if a creature is critically hit for all of his hit remaining hit points, he Dies Instantly.

These are all answers BY THE RULES. Which is what the OP asked for. He didn't ask "This situation came up, what should I do as a GM," at which point your answer would be valid, he basically said "The book doesn't explain what happens when so-and-so occurs, does anyone know what does happen?" In which case I cited the answer by the rules.

And if you want to be technical with this situation? The Dragon isn't dead. It's in the Astral Plane. If the Dragon had access to a Plane Shift or similar ability to transverse planes, all this did was delay him. A lot of people presume "He's dead," because the Astral Plane is "A silvery void that connects the Material and Inner Planes to the Outer Planes, the astral plane is the medium through which the souls of the departed travel to the afterlife." But it then goes on to say that "A traveler in the Astral Plane sees the plane as a vast empty void periodically dotted with tiny motes of physical reality calved off of the countless planes it overlaps. Powerful spellcasters utilize the Astral Plane for a tiny fraction of a second when they teleport, or they can use it to travel between planes with spells like astral projection."

That passage alone tells me that things outside of dead souls can exist in the Astral Plane. So no, the Dragon isn't dead; at least not yet. It's in an Astral Plane. This means that it sees the souls of the dead, and exists in a plane superficial to the Material Plane. So, if it has a means to travel across Planes, (possibly Teleport, though Plane Shift and similar spells work better), all this did was delay the Dragon. If it doesn't, then it'll eventually die due to hunger, suffocation, etc., in which case if the Dragon is truly vengeful, it'll become a spirit and haunt/attack the PCs down the road (especially since it's on the fast track to the Ethereal Plane, where the souls of the dead go to exist).

I think there's been a miscommunication here.

While I'm not fond of save or dies, it allows a save. As well as coup de grace. And these effects are fine and intended parts of the game.

Whipping up an arrow to forcefully combine a bag of holding and portable hole so you can one shot things without them having a chance to save isn't an intended part of the game and shouldn't be permitted.

If you want to talk rules, as I stated there aren't rules that address how to mechanically make this arrow. There aren't rules that tell us whether to use normal or touch AC? Or if there is a penalty for making the shot with an unusual type of arrow? Does it affect the range?

We have no clue what the answer to these questions is because there are no rules for it. So when you tell me the OP wants rules answers for what happens, I say he went off the rules a long time and shouldn't have been allowed to do it in the first place.

Also, as an aside "one-shot" doesn't have to mean dead. Defeated is equivalent to dead for me.


There is the difference between the bag in hole and hole in bag to consider as well.

"If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost."

Obviously the rift is short lived and doesn't effect the surrounding world.

"If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: the hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process."

There's an explicit mention of forging a gate, which is a specific thing in pathfinder, it also doesn't list a duration for the gate. Basically it create a 10ft radius gate to the Astral plane, and this gate stays there.


If they're not intended, then why are they printed that way? The sad thing is, there's no ambiguity to be had. Let's break it down:

You have a Portable Hole, right? Right. You have a Bag of Holding, right? Right. So you put the Portable Hole in the Bag of Holding, right? Right. So what happens when you do that? It says right in the rules that:

-It opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The Astral Plane is defined in the rules.
-The Portable Hole and Bag of Holding enter the gate. They become destroyed in that process.
-Any creature, and I mean ANY creature, within 10 feet of that gate spawned from the Portable Hole being thrown into the Bag of Holding, gets thrown into the rift as well. It doesn't matter if they're Diminutive, Colossal, Medium, whatever.

So, to review, in order to get sucked into the gate, you must be within 10 feet, and are either:

A. The Portable Hole or Bag of Holding. This stuff becomes destroyed as soon as it enters the gate, which is kind of useless to state (other than by stating anything within those extradimensional spaces are forever destroyed as well).
B. A creature. It doesn't matter what type or subtype you are, it doesn't matter what size you are, it doesn't matter what skills you possess, what spells currently affect you, etc. All that matters is if you're a creature or not. One argument could be made that you actually enter the Astral Plane with zero items, because they are not creatures, which don't get sucked in, but thankfully for this current situation, it's not relevant.

If you are either of these things, and any part of you falls within that 10 foot radius, you're pulled in, and you have entered the Astral Plane. That's it.

There is practically zero ambiguity as to what happens, who/what is involved, etc. Trying to say that these aren't "intended," especially when there is no other interpretation to allow (besides what a GM would houserule) is false. For something to not have proper intention, it either isn't printed correctly, or its current wording leaves room for interpretation. There is no room for interpretation here, as the cause and effects are clearly spelled out.

Is this stupid? Yes, on one account, as those items are far more valuable as storage spaces than "boss defeaters." But quite frankly, the only thing I could see this worth working on is a Tarrasque, because dumping over 30,000 gold just to defeat someone (which, if they're smart and capable, can just bypass that entirely) is more expensive than casting a Wish spell to basically do the same damn thing, except better.


Jiggy wrote:
Claxon wrote:
The rules don't say you can make it into a weapon, so you can't. They do tell you what happens if you put one into the other, but there aren't rules explaining how to attach it to an arrow or anything else so it simply isn't possible.
This is how roleplay dies: you can only interact with the world according to a prescribed list of actions from a pre-written menu. No getting immersed in the world and thinking about how you could interact with your environment, just picking a command from the action menu.

Agreed.

That said, I would rule the dragon sucked in by the first bag. If the dragon has the means to return, he will do so. if you are lucky, the return will be immediate. If not, you've made a very powerful, highly intelligent enemy.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

A: Attaching a portable hole to an arrow would mess with aerodynamics. Penalty to hit.
B: The bag of holding would have to be open and the arrow shot through the mouth of the bag. Penalty to hit.
C: The GM would have to rule that the extradimensional space of the bag is accessible even when the bag is unattended.
D: Since only a portion of the dragon would be within 10' (like say, the cave... or the entire planet) it would NOT be sucked into the planar rift.

End result... maybe the dragon is 'tripped' or 'repositioned' by the rush of air towards the breach.


CBDunkerson wrote:

A: Attaching a portable hole to an arrow would mess with aerodynamics. Penalty to hit.

B: The bag of holding would have to be open and the arrow shot through the mouth of the bag. Penalty to hit.
C: The GM would have to rule that the extradimensional space of the bag is accessible even when the bag is unattended.
D: Since only a portion of the dragon would be within 10' (like say, the cave... or the entire planet) it would NOT be sucked into the planar rift.

End result... maybe the dragon is 'tripped' or 'repositioned' by the rush of air towards the breach.

To be honest, this sort of thing shouldn't have even happened in the first place. I mean, maybe an Unseen Servant or two could position them in the right place to set them off, like a bomb, but that's about as far as this should have gone, considering you're basically required to do some weird trick shot that should be physically impossible (even by the laws of fantasy). Looney Toons called, they want their physics back.

But as far as the whole "dragon isn't pulled through the portal" is concerned, that's houseruling, from the perspective of an Angry GM having his BBEG trivialized by two expensive magic item storages.


Isn't there a message arrow of some kind? Like a bigger diameter arrow that's hollow to keep a scroll or message, with a much decreased range or penalty, that would be what you'd be looking for.


Ruling that because the entirety of the dragon is not in the radius, none of the dragon is affected, is like arguing that because the entire planet isn't in the radius of the effect, none of the dirt or stone around it can be affected.

:P

I do agree this is cheesy, adn the dragon should have been given a chance to discern the magical nature of the bags..and then puff a breath at them and destroy them. It's a Great wyrm, it's thousands of years old, and has been in far more battles then the characters, it knows all the magic items and how they interact.

It wouldn't have been taken in by this unless it wanted to.

But since it's still alive on the astral, the GM should now have it ambush the characters. Preferably in a CE way, with lots of innocents around that can die for their mistake.


If the portable hole goes into a bag of holding or its equivalent then any creature within 10 feet is moved to the Astral Plane. If the dragon was within 10 feet then it is gone (barring some dimensional stasis or locking.) It doesn't matter if the dragon is otherwise 20 or 30 feet long, as long as it was within 10 feet.

The dragon is not killed, it's on the Astral plane. Assuming it cannot immediately return somehow (even plane shift could put it miles off, though a plane shift and teleport would work) then you get XP for defeating it.

It is not dead however, it's on a Timeless plane (and dragons don't tend to get 'too old' anyway) so it will very likely find a way back. Either it will have allies or it will make them with promises (false or not) of treasure for help or by just scaring the hell out of the residents. Are you going to want a pissed off Great Wyrm roaming around your neighborhood, you'd probably send it back on the cheap.

Since you used that tactic, it is now perfectly fair game. You can expect to have portable hole's laid out like pits, or draped over your sleeping forms by assassins and if you have any bag of holding equivalent items (they will say so in the description, though handy haversack is supposedly immune to this) then you can expect the same treatment.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Das Bier wrote:
Ruling that because the entirety of the dragon is not in the radius, none of the dragon is affected, is like arguing that because the entire planet isn't in the radius of the effect, none of the dirt or stone around it can be affected.

Actually, you have that turned around;

The dragon is not pulled in to the breach for the same reason the planet is not pulled in to the breach... they are both only partially within 10'.

As to "none of the dragon is affected"... I didn't say that either. Rather, I suggested that the dragon might get tossed around a bit... like the dirt in your example.


Partially in the area is still in the area, and the effect is clear on what happens to anyone in the area. They are sucked through to the Astral Plane.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Das Bier wrote:
Ruling that because the entirety of the dragon is not in the radius, none of the dragon is affected, is like arguing that because the entire planet isn't in the radius of the effect, none of the dirt or stone around it can be affected.

Actually, you have that turned around;

The dragon is not pulled in to the breach for the same reason the planet is not pulled in to the breach... they are both only partially within 10'.

As to "none of the dragon is affected"... I didn't say that either. Rather, I suggested that the dragon might get tossed around a bit... like the dirt in your example.

Oh.

So what you are saying is "If objects are not heavy or larger then the radius of effect, they are sucked into the astral plane."

Unfortunately, that's a house rule, because that is NOT what the item says.

It says 'everything'.

So if you set it off against a mountainside, it carves out a perfect 10' r hemisphere in the stone. If against the ground, you've now got a perfect half-sphere in the ground. And if the dragon is there, its whole body is going to get drawn in, unless you again choose to invoke a house rule and carve out a portion of its anatomy.

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