Proposed Rule Change for Season 8: Unlimited GM Credits


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3/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka TechGnosis

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Tineke Bolleman wrote:
Having GM stars recharge without a boon and then let GM use them to get a second GM chronicle could work I think.

This was pretty much the solution I thought of in my head, Tineke just beat me to the punch.

I have GMed a few cons since the boon was released, and just haven't gotten it yet. I got a wifty (real) coin of the Open Road, and some other nice boons, but not that one. I'm going to GenCon this year so hopefully then.
But there are lots of GMs who don't get to go to big cons, and they kinda get left out.

Dark Archive 5/5

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I kind of like the idea of crossing off all boons and items on a chronicle and having some line like:

GM Replay Boon: If this is at least the second time judging this scenario, cross out all items and boons on this chronicle. Instead, the character this chronicle is applied to gets a permanent +1 untyped bonus to Survival checks regarding soil composition in Northern Sargava.

On older sheets, it could just cross off the boons and items, because I don't think the PFS team has the time to go back through 7 seasons (plus modules and APs) worth of chronicles and develop appropriate, flavorful bonuses based on the scenario in question.

5/5

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You could just have a generic GM credit boon. Whenever someone ran a game after the first they would apply a standard chroncile. It would have fixed gold amounts for each tier and subtier so you would only need to have one. It could then include a range of minor and/or one use boons relevant to the particular season.

You could then update the boons for each new season in the same way the Faction Journals get updated.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

LOAMY SAND!
SANDY LOAM!
LOAMY SAND!
SANDY LOAM!

Roll initiative!

Silver Crusade

The checkbox idea is a rather neat. I like it.

Even if I got a chronicle sheet for rerunning a scenario, I probably wouldn't take it. I have too many GM credit blob characters that I'll never get to play currently. I don't need more.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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The stars recharging on their own would be nice.

4/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

I agree that allowing full credit a second time GMing would be unbalanced.

I like the idea of a checkbox for multiple GMing of a scenario. I know that I did much better the second time running Sun Orchid Scheme than I did the first time. I think that most scenarios work better the second time you GM them.

I would also think it would be alright if all you got after the first time was gold, PP and XP. This allows (but does not force) you to advance a character.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I personally enjoy running a scenario multiple times. I know I don't get credit after the 1st time in each game type (PFS vs PFC), but I think it's a fun experience. Different players, sometimes you're able to cover things the previous session didn't get to (or overlooked, lol), different outcomes.

More on the OT, I think providing a GM with maybe a 1/2 credit towards his stars when running a scenario after the 1st time (no boon, gold, xp, etc.). I'm a starting GM with only 2 scenarios under my belt now (thanks Jon + GAMEX 2016!!!) and it's a bit daunting towards getting to 2 or 3 stars (much less 4! lol). :)

Silver Crusade 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh aka Terminalmancer

ckdragons wrote:

I personally enjoy running a scenario multiple times. I know I don't get credit after the 1st time in each game type (PFS vs PFC), but I think it's a fun experience. Different players, sometimes you're able to cover things the previous session didn't get to (or overlooked, lol), different outcomes.

More on the OT, I think providing a GM with maybe a 1/2 credit towards his stars when running a scenario after the 1st time (no boon, gold, xp, etc.). I'm a starting GM with only 2 scenarios under my belt now (thanks Jon + GAMEX 2016!!!) and it's a bit daunting towards getting to 2 or 3 stars (much less 4! lol). :)

You do already get full credit toward your stars* for each table you run, regardless of whether you've run it before or not. It's just the character credit--the chronicle sheet--you miss out on.

*Not absolutely true for your 5th star from what I understand

5/5

I GM pretty frequently at game stores and small cons in my area and I don't think unlimited replay credits are a good idea. I think that most players support the idea that GMs receive some benefit for their service, including some small benefits that player do not receive, but I think that unlimited credits would be a step too far. None of the replay credits I have taken thus far have been for the purpose of getting a specific Chronicle reward assigned more than once, although I am holding 4 credits in reserve to either replay or run Eyes of the Ten again. Mostly, I have used my credits to quickly level a character to the range where I want to play it. I have to admit that I have never taken one the the "evil" rewards from a scenario (my Good characters have refused on principle and my Neutral ones have decided against it based on the risks involved - "It's evil. You just don't cotton to it. You hit it on the nose with a rolled up newspaper of Justice!").

I have received two Expanded Narrative boons and I would support the granting of the same benefits to all GMs without requiring the boon, so that GMs who do not have the opportunity to run at conventions could receive the same reward. I would also support the idea that when running a scenario that would otherwise permit no credit, a GM can put a Chronicle on a character stack with no XP, PP, gold, or other rewards from the scenario itself but still be able to check off a box on the character's Faction card for GM credit. I also support the idea of including check boxes on future Chronicles that might grant specific GM benefits when others are not received, but I agree that it would be too much to ask that Paizo go back through older scenarios to update the Chronicles to include this option. I think that the easiest solution would be to create a GM card similar to the Faction cards.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

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Pete Winz wrote:
I think that the easiest solution would be to create a GM card similar to the Faction cards.

I think this is the most viable solution (also proposed above by TimD). Going back through seven season of scenarios, AP chronicles, and module chronicles, is a task that should not be added to the PFS team's workload. And, frankly, going forward I don't want to see any space taken on future chronicles for something that has a much lower rate of use. Put it on a separate card that only needs to be updated every now and then.

5/5

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Drogon wrote:
I think this is the most viable solution (also proposed above by TimD).

Sorry for not giving proper credit in my earlier post. I would recommend that the benefits proposed by TimD in his post be toned down a bit, but I'm sure we can count on Paizo to come up with something that GMs will like but that will not unbalance things.

3/5

No worries.
The example was an off-the-top-of-my-head one. I concur that it would need to be tweaked extensively.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

put me in team "No on credit"

Yeah, I buy most of the scenarios, and run the ones I really like for credit over and over (Nightmarch, Confirmation, I just ran Rebel's Ransom again because how can you not like that scenario if you've been divorced?) I'm running 10 (or more!) tables at Origins not for credit, but for fun (though I might take slow credit on a few)

Would a checkbox be nice? Sure. but no recredit. As a GM I already get the 'perk' of being able to tailor the scenario to the PC I put it on right out of the box. "Oh, this one gives you a boon that lets you speak elf? Well, guess I won't put it on my half elf PCs then..."

As is, I've offered to run <redacted> Saturday since I played <redacted> past weekend, and will run <redacted> at Origins and want them all on the same PC.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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I've always been in the camp of no unlimited replay, especially for players as I've seen first-hand the damage it can cause between chronicle farming and increased meta-gaming (intentional or otherwise). However, GM re"play" seems to be a different thing. Meta-gaming is already a risk since you can GM before you play. The same can be said of boon farming as well. I don't think most of the objections really hold much water. Considering a few:

    * Item Farming this is rarely a problem because in most cases the items listed for access are things you can already obtain with the equivalent Fame. Also, keep in mind items found during a scenario are "sized" appropriately for use by a baddie against the PCs. It typically will not be something significantly above their access level or wealth.
    * Boon Farming again I don't see this as an issue since most boons are minor benefits and often circumstantially specific. Having an extra character or two with said boon is unlikely to create an imbalance when compared to the expansive list of player options available.

I tend to take a hard stance on GMing and I only want GMs who WANT to run games. Meaning their primary reason for GMing is that they enjoy the experience and opportunity to provide an exciting, fun game for the players. As opposed to the GM who is just doing it to earn a reward. I find that the latter tend to invest less in the quality of their prep and even rush through the game to "get it over with" so they can move on to playing their newly "boon buffed" character. So because of that (and some other mostly personal reasons) I have always opposed unlimited replay for the GMs.

However, I have also heard a lot of feedback about problems getting people to step up and GM. The number one objection is the lack of "incentive" to GM a scenario a second time. So, setting aside my personal objections, perhaps unlimited GM credit IS a good idea if it'll mean more GMs will GM more events. Some might say if we did that it would cause an over-abundance of selective boon-infused characters. I'm not sure that is the case. Remember, if you're GMing you are not playing. So the more people GM, even if their incentive is credit farming, the less they play. It sort of becomes a self-limiting program.

For those of us who don't "need" credit as an incentive to GM, nothing would change. However, for those GMs who only GM when they can earn a reward, unlimited GM credits would encourage them to run more games which would especially help with filling slots at conventions both local/regional and national.

Keep in mind we already have some replay options available with the star-replay program so it's not like replay isn't already a thing, albeit not unlimited. The expanded narrative is an awesome boon, IMHO, but in some areas it is not driving more GMing, at least not when its a repeated scenario.

Having a GM "faction" card and/or an escalation boon for GMs are certainly interesting ideas, but we would need to see what the benefits are before evaluating if they would have the "punch" needed to incentify GMs to run more games. Let's face it, not all boons are created equal.

All-in-all I do not think there would be a significant negative impact on PFS if we allowed unlimited GM re"play." I suggest the pros outweigh the cons. That being said, I am still firmly in the no reply camp with regards to players. I do not see the two equating to each other nor do I see perceived fairness disparity that would encourage us to extend unlimited reply to players.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Good thoughts, Bob.

I guess what I would want to strive for would be a balance between the two types of GMs you cite. On one hand you have the guy who loves GMing, doesn't care if he gets credit, and will run an adventure repeatedly to the point he can recite its stat blocks from memory. On the other hand you have the guy who is forced into the GM seat by attacking his guilty conscience or appealing to his personal greed or by tempting him with an otherwise unattainable reward.

The balance between the two, I believe, is not to allow unlimited credit. I'm not really so worried about the "imbalance" it will cause in the gaming environment. Instead, I am worried that unlimited credit will tip the forced-to-run GM into a truly bad spot, the spot where he merely needs to prep two or three adventures, ever, and won't offer to run anything else. In other words, "If you want me to run, these are your options." That may be due to the fact that he doesn't have time to prep anything else (maybe legitimate). It may also be because those are the chronicles that offer what he feels are the best rewards (a bit more worrisome). Or it may be because those are the adventures that he knows he doesn't have to invest more than a couple hours of playing because he knows exactly how to set his players on the right steamroller path (this is, to me, the worst of the possible outcomes I outline).

I dunno. Maybe I'm spitballing, here. But, to me, having the existing limitations, or card-based options that makes the reward not be based on the chronicle, seem more likely to keep the wrong attitudes at bay.

Essentially, I still want GMs to run scenarios more than once because they WANT to, not because of the reward they get. But I also feel that rewarding those GMs for their constructive attitude (whether it is newly found due to the cool card, or has always been there) is not the wrong thing to do.

The Exchange 5/5

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going to set the fireball off in the hen house...

Why not just change the current GM reward of a chronicle for running a scenario to be a chronicle the third time you run a given scenario?

So you don't get the GM chronicle when you run X-XX the first time - you get it the 3rd and 6th and 9th.... etc.

clearly this will not fly - as it would require "taking a current reward" away, and we never do that. Only expand rewards...

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Drogon wrote:
LOVE the box-checking ideas. Those are sweet. Needs to be a pretty good boon to get the guys I know of to GM a scenario more than once, though. Just so you know...

I too enjoy the idea of a boon reward, either on the chronicle or separate GM card. Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment would get me a huge bonus. :)

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Even a rote dm is better than no dm or Good DM's getting burned out because they HAVE to run all the time.

4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Tennessee—Memphis aka Mulgar

Two-Gun Sam wrote:

going to set the fireball off in the hen house...

Why not just change the current GM reward of a chronicle for running a scenario to be a chronicle the third time you run a given scenario?

So you don't get the GM chronicle when you run X-XX the first time - you get it the 3rd and 6th and 9th.... etc.

clearly this will not fly - as it would require "taking a current reward" away, and we never do that. Only expand rewards...

Just curious, how would gm's in smaller communities get to that third run. In some cases there is not an opportunity to gm a module more than once. And using the "go gm at a con" is obviously not the solution.

So, small community gm's would have less incentive to gm, because they wouldn't be able to get credit. The net result of that would be pfs dying a slow death in some of the smaller communities which is the exact opposite of what we all would prefer to happen.

The Exchange 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Even a rote dm is better than no dm or Good DM's getting burned out because they HAVE to run all the time.

what's "a rote dm"? this is not a term I recognize. Sorry...

edit:Link to Bad Judge Story..

Liberty's Edge Venture-Agent, Online

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I'm in the let stars automatically recharge at the start of a season camp. I currently only have 1 star and will gain more slowly, so I'm very reluctant to use it because it might never come back. This has led to a few times over the past 2 years where I would have loved to join in a table to play with a group of people, but the adventure was one I already played, they already had a legal table, and the adventure wasn't one of my absolute favorites that would lead me to spend a star under the current conditions. If I knew my star would recharge in a few months, I would probably have chosen to use it.

Liberty's Edge Venture-Agent, Online

Two-Gun Sam wrote:

going to set the fireball off in the hen house...

Why not just change the current GM reward of a chronicle for running a scenario to be a chronicle the third time you run a given scenario?

So you don't get the GM chronicle when you run X-XX the first time - you get it the 3rd and 6th and 9th.... etc.

clearly this will not fly - as it would require "taking a current reward" away, and we never do that. Only expand rewards...

I would much more reluctant to GM if this were the rule. GM chronicles are a strong incentive for me to GM. I vastly prefer playing to GMing, so with no incentive to GM, I probably wouldn't. There are only a handful of adventures that I like so much that I would want to GM them three times.

The Exchange 5/5

Michael Hallet wrote:
Two-Gun Sam wrote:

going to set the fireball off in the hen house...

Why not just change the current GM reward of a chronicle for running a scenario to be a chronicle the third time you run a given scenario?

So you don't get the GM chronicle when you run X-XX the first time - you get it the 3rd and 6th and 9th.... etc.

clearly this will not fly - as it would require "taking a current reward" away, and we never do that. Only expand rewards...

I would much more reluctant to GM if this were the rule. GM chronicles are a strong incentive for me to GM. I vastly prefer playing to GMing, so with no incentive to GM, I probably wouldn't. There are only a handful of adventures that I like so much that I would want to GM them three times.

so... how about twice?

Grand Lodge

Terminalmancer wrote:

I mostly agree with everyone here, some sort of credit would be nice but free unlimited replay is bad. Spitballing some ideas:

- Let GM replay stars apply to getting GM credit for a scenario?
- Let GMs re-reunning scenarios mark "replay" on a chronicle and apply that chronicle as a 1 XP, 2 PP, 500 gp, no items/no boons chronicle to a first-level character? (how many people like level 1 anyway?)
- Let GMs clearly mark "replay" on a chronicle which counts as a no-XP, no-PP, no-Gold/items/boons chronicle to a character for faction credit? (those things are a pain to fill up anyway)
- Add one-line GM boons to each chronicle that add something small but fun that increases with GM credit? Ex: "GM reward: check one box every time you GM this scenario. For every box checked, this character receives a +1 bonus on Knowledge: Engineering checks related to bridges."

Unless something has changed, you can already use your GM star replays to get a second GM credit for a scenario.

Liberty's Edge Venture-Agent, Online

Two-Gun Sam wrote:
Michael Hallet wrote:
Two-Gun Sam wrote:

going to set the fireball off in the hen house...

Why not just change the current GM reward of a chronicle for running a scenario to be a chronicle the third time you run a given scenario?

So you don't get the GM chronicle when you run X-XX the first time - you get it the 3rd and 6th and 9th.... etc.

clearly this will not fly - as it would require "taking a current reward" away, and we never do that. Only expand rewards...

I would much more reluctant to GM if this were the rule. GM chronicles are a strong incentive for me to GM. I vastly prefer playing to GMing, so with no incentive to GM, I probably wouldn't. There are only a handful of adventures that I like so much that I would want to GM them three times.
so... how about twice?

No. Not to say that I never have, but it's usually when I'm running at a convention and prepping 6 different scenarios is a bit much, so I only prep 4. But most of the year, I only run stuff I haven't before.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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Two-Gun Sam wrote:
Michael Hallet wrote:
Two-Gun Sam wrote:

going to set the fireball off in the hen house...

Why not just change the current GM reward of a chronicle for running a scenario to be a chronicle the third time you run a given scenario?

So you don't get the GM chronicle when you run X-XX the first time - you get it the 3rd and 6th and 9th.... etc.

clearly this will not fly - as it would require "taking a current reward" away, and we never do that. Only expand rewards...

I would much more reluctant to GM if this were the rule. GM chronicles are a strong incentive for me to GM. I vastly prefer playing to GMing, so with no incentive to GM, I probably wouldn't. There are only a handful of adventures that I like so much that I would want to GM them three times.
so... how about twice?

How about once? Forcing someone to GM a scenario multiple times to get any reward just seems like a good way to lose GM's, nosig. Especially in areas with a player base that can't always support more than one table of a given scenario.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

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I'm not a fan of replay. In any form, really. I'm pretty sure most people know that about me. Therefore it will probably not be a shock to hear that I like the star-replay setup the way it currently stands. They are precious, and meant to be used at exactly the right time, for the right reason, and I think that has been accomplished under the current rules.

That said, I think the boon that allows GM stars to recharge should absolutely be available in some way outside of conventions.

So, how about we get this "re-GM" thing together with that boon?

Our "check off the box" list could look something like this:

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the second time, check this box. You now have access to the "I'm a Re-runner" boon.
[ ] I'm a Re-runner! While in combat you may use this boon to perform the withdraw action and not draw an attack of opportunity in the first two squares you move through. Check the box once the boon has been used.

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the third time, check this box. You now have access to the "I'm in for Three" boon.
[ ] I'm in For Three! While gathering information in a bar you may use this boon to gain a +5 bonus on your skill check. Check this box once the boon has been used.

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the fourth time, chick this box. You now have access to the "I'm all For It" boon.
[ ] I'm All For It! While in combat and you use the charge action, you gain a +4 bonus to damage rolls. You gain this bonus for the remainder of the combat whenever you use the charge action. Check this box once the boon has been used.

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the fifth time, check this box. You now have access to the "Five Stars, Here I Come" boon.
[ ] Five Stars, Here I Come! You may recharge your use of the "star replays" you have used. This boon only recharges replays you have used, and does not add to the total replays you have beyond the number of stars you possess. You may only earn this boon once per scenario you are re-running.

Silver Crusade 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh aka Terminalmancer

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godsDMit wrote:
Terminalmancer wrote:

I mostly agree with everyone here, some sort of credit would be nice but free unlimited replay is bad. Spitballing some ideas:

- Let GM replay stars apply to getting GM credit for a scenario?
- Let GMs re-reunning scenarios mark "replay" on a chronicle and apply that chronicle as a 1 XP, 2 PP, 500 gp, no items/no boons chronicle to a first-level character? (how many people like level 1 anyway?)
- Let GMs clearly mark "replay" on a chronicle which counts as a no-XP, no-PP, no-Gold/items/boons chronicle to a character for faction credit? (those things are a pain to fill up anyway)
- Add one-line GM boons to each chronicle that add something small but fun that increases with GM credit? Ex: "GM reward: check one box every time you GM this scenario. For every box checked, this character receives a +1 bonus on Knowledge: Engineering checks related to bridges."
Unless something has changed, you can already use your GM star replays to get a second GM credit for a scenario.

You'd be absolutely correct. Not sure how I missed that, it's probably one of those things someone told me once and I never thought to question.

Thanks for clearing that up.

5/5

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Even a rote dm is better than no dm

I know we've disagreed on this before, BNW, and I know you have a very different situation than I do in terms of local players and so forth. But a rote GM is not always better than no GM at all. When games fall through because GMs burn out and no one steps up, it sends a very clear wake-up to the players - no GM, no game.

Rote GMs (or bad or under-prepared or "just in it for the boon" GMs) also damage the campaign as a whole, because any new players that come out are not going to be wowed by the best PFS has to offer.

No GM HAS to run all the time. I gave notice at least twice during my career (so far) that I would not be GMing for a while, and many other regular GMs here have done the same. I'm lucky, we have lots of great GMs - but not many of them would have become GMs in the first place if the regular guys didn't just sit down for a while and force others to jump into the breach.

Losing one or two game days to fixing a huge sustainability problem is an easy trade-off to make in my view.

Sovereign Court 5/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Drogon wrote:

I'm not a fan of replay. In any form, really. I'm pretty sure most people know that about me. Therefore it will probably not be a shock to hear that I like the star-replay setup the way it currently stands. They are precious, and meant to be used at exactly the right time, for the right reason, and I think that has been accomplished under the current rules.

That said, I think the boon that allows GM stars to recharge should absolutely be available in some way outside of conventions.

So, how about we get this "re-GM" thing together with that boon?

Our "check off the box" list could look something like this:

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the second time, check this box. You now have access to the "I'm a Re-runner" boon.
[ ] I'm a Re-runner! While in combat you may use this boon to perform the withdraw action and not draw an attack of opportunity in the first two squares you move through. Check the box once the boon has been used.

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the third time, check this box. You now have access to the "I'm in for Three" boon.
[ ] I'm in For Three! While gathering information in a bar you may use this boon to gain a +5 bonus on your skill check. Check this box once the boon has been used.

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the fourth time, chick this box. You now have access to the "I'm all For It" boon.
[ ] I'm All For It! While in combat and you use the charge action, you gain a +4 bonus to damage rolls. You gain this bonus for the remainder of the combat whenever you use the charge action. Check this box once the boon has been used.

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the fifth time, check this box. You now have access to the "Five Stars, Here I Come" boon.
[ ] Five Stars, Here I Come! You may recharge your use of the "star replays" you have used. This boon only recharges replays you have used, and does not add to the total replays you have beyond the number of stars you possess. You may only earn this boon once per scenario you...

I really like this, although I would probably further clarify that I would like to see the stars still only recharged once per season. But otherwise I would really like to see this boon passed out.

The Exchange 5/5

Drogon wrote:

I'm not a fan of replay. In any form, really. I'm pretty sure most people know that about me. Therefore it will probably not be a shock to hear that I like the star-replay setup the way it currently stands. They are precious, and meant to be used at exactly the right time, for the right reason, and I think that has been accomplished under the current rules.

That said, I think the boon that allows GM stars to recharge should absolutely be available in some way outside of conventions.

So, how about we get this "re-GM" thing together with that boon?

Our "check off the box" list could look something like this:

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the second time, check this box. You now have access to the "I'm a Re-runner" boon.
[ ] I'm a Re-runner! While in combat you may use this boon to perform the withdraw action and not draw an attack of opportunity in the first two squares you move through. Check the box once the boon has been used.

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the third time, check this box. You now have access to the "I'm in for Three" boon.
[ ] I'm in For Three! While gathering information in a bar you may use this boon to gain a +5 bonus on your skill check. Check this box once the boon has been used.

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the fourth time, chick this box. You now have access to the "I'm all For It" boon.
[ ] I'm All For It! While in combat and you use the charge action, you gain a +4 bonus to damage rolls. You gain this bonus for the remainder of the combat whenever you use the charge action. Check this box once the boon has been used.

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the fifth time, check this box. You now have access to the "Five Stars, Here I Come" boon.
[ ] Five Stars, Here I Come! You may recharge your use of the "star replays" you have used. This boon only recharges replays you have used, and does not add to the total replays you have beyond the number of stars you possess. You may only earn this boon once per scenario you...

would this apply to re-running Evergreens? Run Confirmation 5 times and recharge a Star Replay? How about running the same scenario once in Core and once in Standard, does that count as running it twice?

Liberty's Edge Venture-Agent, Online

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GM Lamplighter wrote:
Rote GMs (or bad or under-prepared or "just in it for the boon" GMs) also damage the campaign as a whole, because any new players that come out are not going to be wowed by the best PFS has to offer.

I'm an "in it for the boon" GM and I've had players who were trying PFS for the first time tell me that the experience made them want to play more.

Dark Archive

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I'm not sure how we got to the "two types of GMs" discussion where you either love GMing and would do it for nothing or you hate GMing and are only doing it because of peer pressure.

I love to GM. It is more fun for me than playing. I think that I'm pretty good at it, and I invest a LOT of time into knowing the scenario backwards and forwards. I have also not yet run a scenario a second time for no credit, nor do I intend to in the future. Why?

Right off the bat, I pay $4 every time that I run a new scenario. I also buy the flip-mats, print out the scenario, highlight relevant text in multiple colors, draw or print any additional maps in advance, select appropriate pawns/minis for the scenario, read the product discussion and GM threads, and print out extra materials that I may need (hat-tip to those that contribute to pfsprep). All told, I probably spend 4-6 hours in preparation. I think that being prepared is the best way to let everyone (including myself) focus on the game, and I take that responsibility seriously.

I do all of this because I love to GM. However, it is also important to me that I feel like I am getting some small return on my time and money. For me, the GM chronicle sheet is the reward for my effort. It is a small thing and it doesn't cost anyone anything. But it makes a big difference whether I am willing to spend the time and energy to GM a game when I have a dozen other competing priorities for those resources.

I understand the issue about boons and limited-availability items on the chronicle sheets. I would advocate for receiving a "blank" chronicle sheet with only the Gold/XP/PP. Indeed, I think that is the only way we could allow GMs to receive an additional chronicle sheet for a second running of a scenario. The "checkbox" idea really isn't enough for me. I want to develop more characters into a wider range of levels so that I can try out new concepts and be able to play any tier that happens to be running on a given week. Having more characters with different mechanics will only make me a better GM.

As seems to commonly be the case, I agreed with Alex Augunas before and I still agree with him now. Running the same scenario multiple times is likely to give your players a better experience as you become more familiar with the material and have seen a wider variety of approaches to obstacles. Nobody is hurt by the fact that you would get an additional chronicle sheet in this situation (particularly if you don't get any of the special "goodies" a second time) and it would get more GMs in the mix, particularly those GMs in the 0-3 star range for whom GM credit seems to be an important incentive.

Grand Lodge 1/5

As a newer GM to PFS, I've played through a few modules that I've really wanted to GM for my home group and attempt to run for others once I can get more time off of work.

I really like the ideas of a GM boon sheet for replay value as well as the removal of requiring a Stars Recharge boon.

I'm getting multiple groups of friends who would like me to run them through the lower level modules as well as some of the specials (We Be Goblins, people love being silly). I'm going to do them whether I get credit or not, but knowing that my time helps give me a little back for the hours I'm providing for my players would be a little extra incentive for me (and hopefully keep the much older and more experienced GMs from burning out from all their hard work).

4/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

I would rather play than GM. That said, I know that PFS needs GMs in order to continue operating.

Duty rather than guilt.

That doesn't mean I don't enjoy GMing, nor does it mean that incentives are not appreciated.

I suspect more people are between the two extremes that people keep mentioning -- only in it for the boon or would do it without any compensation because they love it so much. Most people will burn out from GMing too much. Where that threshold is varies quite a bit.

I still like the checkbox idea, although I do believe that GMing evergreens should not count towards it. You already get full credit for GMing an evergreen multiple times just like a player can play it multiple times.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

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I'm not sure "I don't use the GM credit I earn" is a good reason to say "people who enjoy it shouldn't be rewarded."

I've got 126 tables of credit, and it still feels like sort of a kick to the gut to know that when a group of new players ask me to "run your favorite scenario for us" it's lacking a chronicle while running something new would get one of my newer characters out of the Level 1 doldrums.

I usually go ahead and run the old scenario anyway- -maps are already drawn!- -but still.

Aside: I had a character retire at level 12 with exactly 4 player chronicles. I get more enjoyment out of being able to say that than I would have playing her that often. GM Chronicle sheets are awesome.

Alternate Idea: What about getting a chronicle sheet every other time you GM a scenario? 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

I'll admit that I love GMing. But I do love playing, too. For me a good balance seems to be getting to play 1/2 to 1/3 the time.

And other players seem to enjoy having me at the table no matter what side of the GM screen I'm on. While I would love to get chronicle sheets for GMing again, I think it would unbalance the system. And besides, it's good for me to branch out and do new scenarios too.

Hmm

5/5

Lots of new GMs are awesome, Michael, but I wasn't equating "new" with "didn't do their homework". Sorry if that's how it came off.

The Exchange 5/5

I'm against the idea of getting extra chronicle sheets from GMing a scenario multiple times, but I wouldn't mind seeing a GM reward similar to the faction cards that unlock from running games.

Liberty's Edge Venture-Agent, Online

GM Lamplighter wrote:
Lots of new GMs are awesome, Michael, but I wasn't equating "new" with "didn't do their homework". Sorry if that's how it came off.

I'm not really new to GMing though. I've been a GM for all sorts of RPGs since about 1990. I was just admitting that if it wasn't for the rewards (GM chronicles, GM boons) I would probably GM a lot less than I do. Telling a story being its own reward just isn't enough for me any more.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

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nosig wrote:
Drogon wrote:
An idea.
would this apply to re-running Evergreens? Run Confirmation 5 times and recharge a Star Replay? How about running the same scenario once in Core and once in Standard, does that count as running it twice?

No. Why would that make sense? You already get a full credit chronicle for it.

I'm not a rules writer. I'm certain the rules would need to be cleaned up. I just put down an idea. It doesn't need to be picked apart for loopholes, already. /-:

MagFire wrote:
I'm not sure how we got to the "two types of GMs" discussion where you either love GMing and would do it for nothing or you hate GMing and are only doing it because of peer pressure.
others wrote:
Similar expressions of irritation or dismay.

I should probably have known better than to post the two extremes as my example. Sorry.

I believe that the vast majority of us (most of us, in fact) lie somewhere in between the two examples of GMs. Pigeonholing anyone into a place where they are either only in it for the loot or only in it for the fun is a fallacy. I, myself, love GMing. I love GMing adventures more than once, mostly because I like seeing what the next group will do differently. But that love of the game wears thin on the 6th or 7th run, believe me. Frankly, I never want to see True Dragons of Absalom ever again. This is not to say, however, that I don't love taking credit for my GMing. It's pretty important to me. I use it most often to avoid 1st level. I recently used it to put a PC directly to 8th level, as that's where I think he'll be fun to play; I plan on keeping him on slow track so that I can have enough time with him. And I certainly don't want to be forced to run something MORE than once in order to get credit. Some adventures just suck.

Like my own attitude toward GMing is a compromise of the two extreme types, I believe that a better compromise between "all the credit, please" and "no credit at all, thanks" exists. Thus, the example I posted.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

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Perhaps GM stars could offer both a re-play and a re-run, with the re-run "stars" recharging each season.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Captain Tally-Ho! wrote:
Perhaps GM stars could offer both a re-play and a re-run, with the re-run "stars" recharging each season.

you can theoretically do that now , but as the people with a lot of stars keep saying, once you get enough stars for it to matter the credit won't.

Grand Lodge 4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Captain Tally-Ho! wrote:
Perhaps GM stars could offer both a re-play and a re-run, with the re-run "stars" recharging each season.
you can theoretically do that now , but as the people with a lot of stars keep saying, once you get enough stars for it to matter the credit won't.

GM stars only give you a replay OR a rerun now, though.

Sovereign Court Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka Yasumoto

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Typically when I GM, I'm going to be looking for a chronicle so I can help get another character experience as I still haven't retired a character yet. If I were going to re-GM a scenario, then I'd be doing it for the reason of "sharing an awesome scenario with friends" or "using a scenario I've already prepped on short notice" so I already would be motivated to do it.

Having a boon is kind of nice, and helps me feel like I'm still getting some extrinsic "accomplishment" in the broader campaign, so that's kind of cool. It just wouldn't be enough to motivate me one way or the other (as a GM in the middle of the two extremes from above).

3/5

I've always found it odd that GMs can't get GMing credit for running the same scenario again. While I understand that it could potentially lead to people running for particular boons, I don't know how problematic or prominent that would be... after all, a GM needs players, and the players can't replay. The benefit, on the other hand, I feel is immense. Allowing re-runnings for credit would encourage GMs not to avoid re-running the same scenarios when asked (such as at a con, or over time at a local game night).

Why is it good to encourage re-running when a locale needs it?

a) More motivation for someone to run is always useful for keeping games going.

b) The more you run a scenario, the smoother the game tends to go, and the better you get at running it. There have been many times that I've run a game, only to realize things I could have done better and would improve next time... only next time tends not to come, as there's less benefit to re-running than to running something new.

c) Having people run the same scenarios multiple times at cons, rather than a large variety, means that each individual can focus on prepping fewer scenarios, making it more likely that the games will be a success.

d) Making re-running more rewarding also means that there is more value to making props, buying maps (or printing good quality ones), etc. While not necessary, such tools help increase immersion for players, and thus should be considered beneficial. As it stands right now, I'd likely only do this for evergreens myself.

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South aka schattenstern

Quote:

Drogon wrote:

I'm not a fan of replay. In any form, really. I'm pretty sure most people know that about me. Therefore it will probably not be a shock to hear that I like the star-replay setup the way it currently stands. They are precious, and meant to be used at exactly the right time, for the right reason, and I think that has been accomplished under the current rules.

That said, I think the boon that allows GM stars to recharge should absolutely be available in some way outside of conventions.

So, how about we get this "re-GM" thing together with that boon?

Our "check off the box" list could look something like this:

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the second time, check this box. You now have access to the "I'm a Re-runner" boon.
[ ] I'm a Re-runner! While in combat you may use this boon to perform the withdraw action and not draw an attack of opportunity in the first two squares you move through. Check the box once the boon has been used.

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the third time, check this box. You now have access to the "I'm in for Three" boon.
[ ] I'm in For Three! While gathering information in a bar you may use this boon to gain a +5 bonus on your skill check. Check this box once the boon has been used.

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the fourth time, chick this box. You now have access to the "I'm all For It" boon.
[ ] I'm All For It! While in combat and you use the charge action, you gain a +4 bonus to damage rolls. You gain this bonus for the remainder of the combat whenever you use the charge action. Check this box once the boon has been used.

[ ] If you are GMing a scenario for the fifth time, check this box. You now have access to the "Five Stars, Here I Come" boon.
[ ] Five Stars, Here I Come! You may recharge your use of the "star replays" you have used. This boon only recharges replays you have used, and does not add to the total replays you have beyond the number of stars you possess. You may only earn this boon once per scenario you...

While i like the the general idea of such an sheet please do not use minor one use ever things for such an boon -> Those boons tend to be either not used or forgotten when they are realy needed. Once per scenario or permanent would be a much better incentive.


I really like drogon and agree with his point, but I would disagree with his logic to get there.

Most places need Dms much more than Players. So the Dm rewards need to be adjusted for that. The logic "players do not get it and thus Dms should not" I find inaccurate because of that. DM rewards should not equal player rewards.

Now I am a DM that very rarely gives credit to my characters. A VO was teasing me for playing my level 2 slow. So giving them Dm credit are times I will not get to play that character. So I do not really care either way what they do.

Now I a slightly against allowing people to gain the boons multiple times because I do not want people DMing a scenario for the boons, but because they enjoy it.

I have seen a store do speed runs of scenarios and finish them in like 45 minutes so they could get the boons and chronicles. Replays may open up more of that, and I think it wrecks the game and causes people to lose appreciation of earning things. Although this store also softballs games to silly levels.

I want DMs that love the scenario and love playing it and seeing different situations happening. I would prefer a DM that knows the adventure so well they hardly reference the paper(I have we be goblins nearly memorized and can spout most of the flavor text from my head).

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville aka Kyrie Ebonblade,

Given the (relative) scarcity of the GM recharge boon. That could be addressed. I know I got none the last two years at ACC.

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