Is It Time For PDF Only Subscriptions Yet?


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So far:

Pro:
* Cost less than print versions.
* No shipping cost.

Possible Pro:
* Might boost sales.

Possible Con:
* Might cause problem with LGS.

Duscuss, not flame or troll, away.

---

Also, Paizo Store Cards, kind like Steam Store Cards?


reposting

* Is it time for PDF ONLY SUBSCRIPTIONS Yet?

might help reduce prices and costs, and maybe boost sales in the process.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

No.


I would hazard a guess that not everyone wants to use .pdfs. I know I don't like them.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The only way PDF subs could boost sales would be if they would come with a discount. This would send LGS owners foaming at mouth. Most of them have a love/hate relationship with Paizo and a love/love/love+++ relationship with WotC. The absolutely last thing you want to do is to tip it over into "screw you and your Failfinder books and your silly little PFS" territory because as far as US/Canada is concerned, LGS are a critical element of the hobby. Much less so in Rest of the World, but ROW amounts to 20-30% of the market at the very best, so you're pretty much setting your business according to whatever local parameters are over the big pond.

Simply put, too much risk for too little gain. I'm pretty sure Paizo runs this through the numbers on at least annual basis, and if they haven't set up PDF-only subs insofar is because they know the ROI would be crappy.


Gorbacz wrote:
The only way PDF subs could boost sales would be if they would come with a discount. This would send LGS owners foaming at mouth. Most of them have a love/hate relationship with Paizo and love/love/love+++ relationship with WotC. The absolutely last thing you want to do is to tip it over into "screw you and your Failfinder books and your silly little PFS" territory because as far as US/Canada is concerned, LGS are a critical element of the hobby. Much less so in ROW, but it amounts to 20-30% of the market at the very best, so you're pretty much setting your business according to whatever local parameters are over the big pond.

True, but it can also bring new customers.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nutcase Entertainment wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
The only way PDF subs could boost sales would be if they would come with a discount. This would send LGS owners foaming at mouth. Most of them have a love/hate relationship with Paizo and love/love/love+++ relationship with WotC. The absolutely last thing you want to do is to tip it over into "screw you and your Failfinder books and your silly little PFS" territory because as far as US/Canada is concerned, LGS are a critical element of the hobby. Much less so in ROW, but it amounts to 20-30% of the market at the very best, so you're pretty much setting your business according to whatever local parameters are over the big pond.

True, but it can also bring new customers.

Sure, but if Paizo has not done so far, it means they've calculated the ROI and figured out that risking loss of LGS support is too big a gamble.

And it's not like the core rulebook PDFs aren't dirt cheap already.


reposting

Gorbacz wrote:
Nutcase Entertainment wrote:

* Is it time for PDF ONLY SUBSCRIPTIONS Yet?

might help reduce prices and costs, and maybe boost sales in the process.

PDFs subs wouldn't reduce prices and costs much (printing is cheap, what is expensive are things that you need to do anyway - art, art, art, words, layout, more art). And it would piss LGS's off even more so than they already are angry at Paizo for providing any PDFs in the first place. So if you put out a PDF subscription scheme with a discount, whatever you will gain in people subscribing won't offset the angry LGS owners who take your product off the shelf and stop hosting PFS events.

Not what I meant (the LGS part), but I see the risk.

PDF don't come with shipping cost, which is a turn off for many people.


Gorbacz wrote:
Nutcase Entertainment wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
The only way PDF subs could boost sales would be if they would come with a discount. This would send LGS owners foaming at mouth. Most of them have a love/hate relationship with Paizo and love/love/love+++ relationship with WotC. The absolutely last thing you want to do is to tip it over into "screw you and your Failfinder books and your silly little PFS" territory because as far as US/Canada is concerned, LGS are a critical element of the hobby. Much less so in ROW, but it amounts to 20-30% of the market at the very best, so you're pretty much setting your business according to whatever local parameters are over the big pond.

True, but it can also bring new customers.

Sure, but if Paizo has not done so far, it means they've calculated the ROI and figured out that risking loss of LGS support is too big a gamble.

And it's not like the core rulebook PDFs aren't dirt cheap already.

Make "Paizo Store Cards", that is still something LGS can sell.

Getting the PDF early.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Another con is that everytime this comes up there is a significant number of people who say they'd drop their current sub and switch to a PDF-only version.

That means Paizo would start printing fewer copies (or would be forced to carry stock for longer) which means their unit print cost would increase or their holding costs would increase. Either way, the "normal" subscription line becomes less profitable (or is forced to carry increased prices, which could easily lead to a spiral as more and more people shift to the cheap PDF version).


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Nutcase Entertainment wrote:
Make "Paizo Store Cards", that is still something LGS can sell.

The logistics of that become quite complicated - I don't have a link, but I know Vic Wertz has posted a long, detailed explanation of some of the problems inherent with this before.


Steve Geddes wrote:

Another con is that everytime this comes up there is a significant number of people who say they'd drop their current sub and switch to a PDF-only version.

Do they explain why?

The only reason I can see under the current model to subscribe to the physical books over just buying the PDFs when they come out is that you simply prefer the physical books or maybe that you really, really like getting the PDF a little earlier with the book sub. Neither of those would change if they offered PDF subs, so I don't really get it.

Personally I think that Paizo's subscription model just isn't a good enough value. The discounts they offer just don't offset the shipping costs and hassle of being locked in to every book in a line that comes out by enough to make it feel like a good buy.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I don't know.

I guess, if you're really price sensitive, it's ultimately cheaper to subscribe since you can sell the physical books and offset the cost. Plus things like the Pathfinder advantage will be worth something if you order a lot.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nutcase Entertainment wrote:
True, but it can also bring new customers.

Customers can already buy any given PDF with a couple mouse clicks. Are there people that refuse to buy any PDFs because there isn't a subscription option?

I know there are people that don't subscribe who complain about subscribers getting PDFs prior to street date. The thing to remember there is that subscribers don't always get things prior to street date. You might get it two weeks early, or you might get it a few days after you could've bought it at the store.

-Skeld

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

Another con is that everytime this comes up there is a significant number of people who say they'd drop their current sub and switch to a PDF-only version.

Do they explain why?

The reason I've seen people bring up over the years is that they only really use the PDF; they don't need the print copy. Not having to store a physical copy and pay less (through a combination of no shipping and the PDFs being 70% of cover price) would incentivize them to drop their physical sub and pick up a PDF sub.

The net effect is that an unknown number of current subscribers opt out of print copies. Subs are used to predict print runs. Print run prices are based on volume. Lower volume, high price/copy, higher retail price, people complain about prices going up, subscriptions drop; cycle continues.

-Skeld


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Skeld wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

Another con is that everytime this comes up there is a significant number of people who say they'd drop their current sub and switch to a PDF-only version.

Do they explain why?
The reason I've seen people bring up over the years is that they only really use the PDF; they don't need the print copy. Not having to store a physical copy and pay less (through a combination of no shipping and the PDFs being 70% of cover price) would incentivize them to drop their physical sub and pick up a PDF sub.

Both of those are reasons many people (including me) stick to PDFs only. However, what I think Ninja in the Rye wanted to know is why people who only use the PDFs subscribe to the print lines in the first place. Anyone who doesn't want the print versions for the reasons you stated can already save money by dropping their subscription(s), so why would a PDF-only subscription cause current subscribers to drop?

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
137ben wrote:
Skeld wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

Another con is that everytime this comes up there is a significant number of people who say they'd drop their current sub and switch to a PDF-only version.

Do they explain why?
The reason I've seen people bring up over the years is that they only really use the PDF; they don't need the print copy. Not having to store a physical copy and pay less (through a combination of no shipping and the PDFs being 70% of cover price) would incentivize them to drop their physical sub and pick up a PDF sub.
Both of those are reasons many people (including me) stick to PDFs only. However, what I think Ninja in the Rye wanted to know is why people who only use the PDFs subscribe to the print lines in the first place. Anyone who doesn't want the print versions for the reasons you stated can already save money by dropping their subscription(s), so why would a PDF-only subscription cause current subscribers to drop?

I can think of a couple reason why someone would subscribe even thought they don't really want the print copy:

Convenience - not having to go through the purchase process manually every month once PDFs become available (since subs do this automatically) [people are lazy],
Early Access - a subscriber can get their PDF as much a two weeks ahead of the street date and some people find that worth the additional cost [people are impatient],
Pathfinder Advantage - When you're an AP subscriber, you get a 15% discount on all that other PF stuff you're probably buying [people like discounts],
It's a deal (sort of) - The sales pitch behind the subscription is that you buy the physical copy and get the PDF for free [people like getting things for "free"],
Support the Cause - Some people will pay slightly higher prices to financially support a business they like [people are slightly altruistic].

So why would a PDF sub cause some customers to drop their physical subs? Because customers assume that a PDF sub would be cheaper (no shipping), be faster (get your PDFs two weeks before street date), and come with the discount on other products. (This is ignoring the fact that every time in the past this subject has been brought up, people have popped in to say they'd drop their physical sub for PDF sub if it were available.)

If you don't care about the physical product and you're getting all the same benefits with a PDF sub, then clearly the PDF sub is a better deal. Physical subs determine print runs and print runs drive prices. Anything that mucks with those numbers is something Paizo is going to be disinclined to mess with.

This has been Paizo's reasoning in the past, right, wrong, or indifferent. Things might be different now, but I'd bet that if Paizo saw an advantage to PDF subs, they would've done it by now.

-Skeld


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

All of my pathfinder is online, so the print copies mostly just sit around doing nothing for me. Skeld hit pretty much all the reasons I subscribe. I still make use of the print copies since I have them (it's nice to have the physical pages bookmarked and ready to open instead of alt-tabbing all the time to switch between the PDF and VTT), but that convenience factor is very slight and not worth me keeping a print sub if a pdf option became available. Plus, print copies don't update automatically with the errata whereas the pdfs do, which is important for me because all of my players don't spend a single dime on this game and thus are entirely reliant on the PRD, d20pfsrd, and similar sites meaning they get all the errata automatically. If what I'm reading differs from what they're reading, that isn't a very good thing and serves to just cause confusion. Also, the print copies are easier on my eyes to read through versus staring at a brightly lit computer screen.

So, while I don't "only" use the PDFs, the advantages of the print copies is slight enough in my case that I would drop them in a heartbeat if PDF-only became an option.

Dark Archive

I'd definitely switch to pdf only sub <_< I just started this AP subscription thing and shipping costs aren't fun. Without advantage discount on everything else I buy, the shipping discount is... Well, more expensive than if I would live in USA and get the product without shipping cost. Would be nice if Paizo had international shipping centres or something to make it cheaper.


Steve Geddes wrote:
Nutcase Entertainment wrote:
Make "Paizo Store Cards", that is still something LGS can sell.
The logistics of that become quite complicated - I don't have a link, but I know Vic Wertz has posted a long, detailed explanation of some of the problems inherent with this before.

Heh?

Smaller LGS might like something like that, since they have more limited shelves space.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm not sure if you get why the LGS don't like Paizo in the first place. They do so because Paizo has its own store, offers dirt cheap PDFs which discourage book sales AND to make matters worse, offers subs with discounts. So anything that helps funnel people to Paizo's storefront and away from the LGS is bad for the LGS.

Now as for Paizo Store Card. If Paizo would offer them to stores, the next thing that would happen is that the wholesalers (Diamond/Alliance) would call Paizo and kindly inform them that due to the recent move which cuts the middleman even further out, they will readjust the terms of cooperation. Considering that Diamond/Alliance are not somebody you want to get on wrong terms with... yeah, you don't aggravate them as well.


Gorbacz wrote:

I'm not sure if you get why the LGS don't like Paizo in the first place. They do so because Paizo has its own store, offers dirt cheap PDFs which discourage book sales AND to make matters worse, offers subs with discounts. So anything that helps funnel people to Paizo's storefront and away from the LGS is bad for the LGS.

Now as for Paizo Store Card. If Paizo would offer them to stores, the next thing that would happen is that the wholesalers (Diamond/Alliance) would call Paizo and kindly inform them that due to the recent move which cuts the middleman even further out, they will readjust the terms of cooperation. Considering that Diamond/Alliance are not somebody you want to get on wrong terms with... yeah, you don't aggravate them as well.

Miniatures, TCG, LARP stuff, etc...

True, but it could help those who don't have game shops nearby, LGS who lack shelves space, it help those who can not get / don't want to get credit cards, etc...


I mostly subscribe to lines for the discount, pre-release access, and the pdf. A pdf only submission would probably result in me dropping a print subscription, except for on occasion the RPG hardcover line, since I hate PDF's for anything that big.

Also left out...most of the cost production for any given book is, IIRC, not the printing (which they can get low rates since they print such a high volume), but art, free lancers, layout, editing, etc. A PDF subscription wouldn't be that cheaper than what they Already have nowadays.

Grand Lodge

Given Paizo's growing penchant for radically altering the rules, functionality, and wording in their documents, PDFs, which can be updated for the new rules with much greater ease, have a certain appeal to them.

Also, maybe you guys would be cool with me just putting up an expansion of the acronym you're throwing about... Local Gaming Store.


LINK HERE for one of Vic's posts about PDF subscriptions.

-- david

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think all people likely to desert their LGS have done so already.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

In my day we called them Friendly Local Gaming Stores.

Oh, how miss those days...


captain yesterday wrote:

In my day we called them Friendly Local Gaming Stores.

Oh, how miss those days...

Some are still those, some...


Skeld wrote:

I can think of a couple reason why someone would subscribe even thought they don't really want the print copy:
Convenience - not having to go through the purchase process manually every month once PDFs become available (since subs do this automatically) [people are lazy],
Early Access - a subscriber can get their PDF as much a two weeks ahead of the street date and some people find that worth the additional cost [people are impatient],
Pathfinder Advantage - When you're an AP subscriber, you get a 15% discount on all that other PF stuff you're probably buying [people like discounts],
It's a deal (sort of) - The sales pitch behind the subscription is that you buy the physical copy and get the PDF for free [people like getting things for "free"],
Support the Cause - Some people will pay slightly higher prices to financially support a business they like [people are slightly altruistic].

So why would a PDF sub cause some customers to drop their physical subs? Because...

I see, I wouldn't assume that a PDF sub would also include early access or Advantage. I'd assume that there'd be some discount on the normal PDF cost, but anything else isn't something I would expect out of it.


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Skeld wrote:

I can think of a couple reason why someone would subscribe even thought they don't really want the print copy:
Convenience - not having to go through the purchase process manually every month once PDFs become available (since subs do this automatically) [people are lazy],
Early Access - a subscriber can get their PDF as much a two weeks ahead of the street date and some people find that worth the additional cost [people are impatient],
Pathfinder Advantage - When you're an AP subscriber, you get a 15% discount on all that other PF stuff you're probably buying [people like discounts],
It's a deal (sort of) - The sales pitch behind the subscription is that you buy the physical copy and get the PDF for free [people like getting things for "free"],
Support the Cause - Some people will pay slightly higher prices to financially support a business they like [people are slightly altruistic].

So why would a PDF sub cause some customers to drop their physical subs? Because...

I see, I wouldn't assume that a PDF sub would also include early access or Advantage. I'd assume that there'd be some discount on the normal PDF cost, but anything else isn't something I would expect out of it.

A PDF subscription without early access probably wouldn't work, the discount on other product might not be needed...


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

In Vic's post that Papa-DRB linked above, his assumption was that there would be no discount on the PDF price, only early access and the convenience of not having to put the product in your cart and check out.


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KM WolfMaw wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

In my day we called them Friendly Local Gaming Stores.

Oh, how miss those days...

Some are still those, some...

Not many though; I live within a 45 minute driving distance to five different LGSs, and I still order my stuff online just so I won't have to interact with the unfriendly staff and their Draconian ideas of fairness.

And don't get me started on used merchandise...

To be on topic though, I would still rather have a real book in my hands than a PDF on my screen.


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Deadbeat Doom wrote:
KM WolfMaw wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

In my day we called them Friendly Local Gaming Stores.

Oh, how miss those days...

Some are still those, some...

Not many though; I live within a 45 minute driving distance to five different LGSs, and I still order my stuff online just so I won't have to interact with the unfriendly staff and their Draconian ideas of fairness.

And don't get me started on used merchandise...

To be on topic though, I would still rather have a real book in my hands than a PDF on my screen.

A PDF only subscription doesn't mean the regular ones have to vanish.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
I think all people likely to desert their LGS have done so already.

In some cases, the FLGS deserted us.


While I can understand the problems for PDF subscriptions, is a real pity not to have one. At some time I have think of subscribe, but the cost for sipping to Europe are excessive. A PDF subscription would be a great solution.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ms. Pleiades wrote:
Also, maybe you guys would be cool with me just putting up an expansion of the acronym you're throwing about... Local Gaming Store.

Thanks, this conversation was quite confusing for me, until you posted this... Everyone is talking about LGSs, but how much influence do they have in the US? In Europe these stores have never been big (at least from my experience).

Alaryth wrote:
While I can understand the problems for PDF subscriptions, is a real pity not to have one. At some time I have think of subscribe, but the cost for sipping to Europe are excessive. A PDF subscription would be a great solution.

I'll second this. If you live in Europe, I don't see any reason to subsribe. The discount doesn't come close to offsetting the shipping fees. I don't know how much it costs to ship to other continents, but I guess anything else than north America, isn't big enough as a market to justify distribution centers.

I'm really happy that Paizo offers PDFs and I would subsribe to a PDF-AP version, just to get the good stuff early, no discount needed...

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Gratz wrote:
I'll second this. If you live in Europe, I don't see any reason to subsribe. The discount doesn't come close to offsetting the shipping fees.

I live in Europe. The main options for an AP installment for me are:

Cheapest online store: 20.50 EUR
Subscription from Paizo: 23.00 - 23.49 EUR (after currency exchange)
FLGS: 27.50 (and have to go to store to pickup)

(I used Hell's Vengeance prices.)

For my own part, I feel that the three euro extra that I pay per month, compared to the cheapest online store, are worth it. For that three euro, I get:

* Free PDF version
* Pathfinder Advantage
* No bother about hunting down each installment individually
* Sometimes I'm among the early receivers of PDF and get early information

Personally, I've felt the subscription worth it.

Silver Crusade

Man, I wish there was a PDF only option. I live in Italy, and I don't want to buy a physical copy of anything from the local stores because

A)It's all in Italian, and

B)It all costs way too much because of local taxes on gaming goods.

In general I really don't care for physical copies of anything, and the shipping costs required for buying things from the Paizo store are so prohibitive, making it an even less attractive option.

So yeah, if I could get everything in PDF format as it comes out with a discount, I'd be happy.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Samy wrote:
Gratz wrote:
I'll second this. If you live in Europe, I don't see any reason to subsribe. The discount doesn't come close to offsetting the shipping fees.

I live in Europe. The main options for an AP installment for me are:

Cheapest online store: 20.50 EUR
Subscription from Paizo: 23.00 - 23.49 EUR (after currency exchange)
FLGS: 27.50 (and have to go to store to pickup)

(I used Hell's Vengeance prices.)

For my own part, I feel that the three euro extra that I pay per month, compared to the cheapest online store, are worth it. For that three euro, I get:

* Free PDF version
* Pathfinder Advantage
* No bother about hunting down each installment individually
* Sometimes I'm among the early receivers of PDF and get early information

Personally, I've felt the subscription worth it.

Well, I thought it you get 15% on APs and all other products. But getting 30% practically offsets the shipping costs, so screw it, I just subscribed.

Community & Digital Content Director

Heya, our stance on PDF subscriptions as described in Vic's previous posts has not changed. I would not expect digital equivalents of our physical subscriptions for a variety of reasons he has described, so our answer at this point in time is still: no.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

To add to the above: dear Euros, hate to break it in for you, but we the so-called Rest of the World is ca. 20% of pnp RPG market, and we share the bracket with Koalas and Kiwis. So it's kind of hard to expect anyone to take use into the account when making their business plans in this industry.

Sovereign Court

That's too bad I'd go PDF only in a heartbeat. I get why it cant be at the moment.

Community Manager

Removed a post—please don't make sweeping statements about what players in other countries are capable of (or not).

Silver Crusade

Gratz wrote:


I'll second this. If you live in Europe, I don't see any reason to subsribe. The discount doesn't come close to offsetting the shipping fees. I don't know how much it costs to ship to other continents, but I guess anything else than north America, isn't big enough as a market to justify distribution centers.

It probably won't make you feel any better, but tbe shipping to Canada is also pretty high. High enough that we also lose out big time if we subscribe

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I understand Vic's argument about not wanting to lose existing print subscriptions.

But such do not exist for StarFinder.

This just might be the best opportunity to test the model of pdf only subscriptions

Liberty's Edge

David knott 242 wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
I think all people likely to desert their LGS have done so already.

In some cases, the FLGS deserted us.

What are those...???

Is Hastings one?
Is Books-a-million one?

You ain't kidding about that....
If you live in a Town with a Game Shop...even a crappy one count your blessings...

this ain't the 80's anymore

Sovereign Court

JPSTOD wrote:


this ain't the 80's anymore

Which is why we want PDF only subs :)

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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The Raven Black wrote:

I understand Vic's argument about not wanting to lose existing print subscriptions.

But such do not exist for StarFinder.

We don't have them yet, but we will, and we don't want to compromise them before we even start them.


Vic Wertz wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

I understand Vic's argument about not wanting to lose existing print subscriptions.

But such do not exist for StarFinder.

We don't have them yet, but we will, and we don't want to compromise them before we even start them.

You could be surprised at the number of FLGS who might like being able to sell Redeem Codes for Paizo Wallet, PDF products, etc, some don't hate Paizo's subscription since it means they can use their limited shelves space more easily.

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