As a Rogue, can you select Combat Trick talent more than once?


Rules Questions


I don't think you can, but I have seen several builds that rely on using Combat Trick multiple times to pick up feats. So I don't think these builds I am seeing are legit.

I question it because of this line:

Quote:


A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once.

Just looking for confirmation... If you CAN select this specific talent (Combat Trick) more than once, can someone cite the rule for me?


You can not.


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No, you are not a fighter with sneak attack. :D

If it doesn't say you can take more than once, then that's it. It defaults to "take only once."


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But notice that there are separate talents for weapon focus and finesse, if thoss are feats you are looking for.


Some of those old builds may have utilized a loophole by taking the Ninja Trick Talent to grab another copy of Combat Trick. That has since been closed.

If you want a second Combat Trick (and a martial weapon), the Swashbuckler archetype allows it.


Hubaris wrote:
Some of those old builds may have utilized a loophole by taking the Ninja Trick Talent to grab another copy of Combat Trick. That has since been closed.

Sorry to zombie this thread but can anyone point out where \ how this "loophole" closed?


How: 'The rogue cannot choose a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent.' in the current version of the rogue talent 'ninja trick'

Where: I expect it was changed in some errata for Ultimate Combat, but I'm not going to go back and check which.


avr wrote:
How: 'The rogue cannot choose a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent.' in the current version of the rogue talent 'ninja trick'

But you are not choosing a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent, you are choosing a ninja trick called "Rogue Talent".

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Chrion wrote:
avr wrote:
How: 'The rogue cannot choose a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent.' in the current version of the rogue talent 'ninja trick'
But you are not choosing a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent, you are choosing a ninja trick called "Rogue Talent".

And then use a Rogue trick to buy a rogue talent you already have.

So you are trying to use a rogue trick to buy a trick that you can't buy twice.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Chrion wrote:
avr wrote:
How: 'The rogue cannot choose a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent.' in the current version of the rogue talent 'ninja trick'
But you are not choosing a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent, you are choosing a ninja trick called "Rogue Talent".

And then use a Rogue trick to buy a rogue talent you already have.

So you are trying to use a rogue trick to buy a trick that you can't buy twice.

Right, but generally speaking specific rules override general rules, which might be the case here since the more specific rules within the tricks\talents seem to allow you to take it a second time.


It would not. You cant have the same one twice. You're trying to find a different way to pick the same one twice but the specific is clear. You can not. That's.... really specific. And nothing in the ninja trick route general or specific states otherwise.


There is at least one archetype which does allow it - the Phantom Thief Rogue. It allows Combat Trick, Minor Magic, and Magic Magic to be taken multiple times. There might be others that do the same, but it has to be stated in the archetype itself or it's not allowed.


I think I tend to agree with you.


Heather 540 wrote:
There is at least one archetype which does allow it - the Phantom Thief Rogue. It allows Combat Trick, Minor Magic, and Magic Magic to be taken multiple times. There might be others that do the same, but it has to be stated in the archetype itself or it's not allowed.

The swashbuckler archetype allows you to take combat trick a second time, but losing trapfinding is a steep price IMO.

Phantom thief can have nearly as many combat bonus feats as a fighter - still, you'd have to figure out ways to improve AB and damage. Unless you want to contribute in other ways than plain attacking.

Spoiler:
There are some ways to use skill to deny foes their Dex bonus: Intimidate for Shatter Defenses, Sleight of Hand for Catch Off-Guard, Bluff for Greater Feint. Master Craftsman unlocks crafting (and improvement) of magical weapons, but in general, improving damage seems more difficult.

That should be it, according to a search in the Archives of Nethys.


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Bekyar Kidnapper can take the feats Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple as rogue talents, independent of the combat trick talent.

That's only useful if you wanted those feats though.


Chrion wrote:
But you are not choosing a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent, you are choosing a ninja trick called "Rogue Talent".

Actually, the loophole was to select the ninja trick "Combat Trick" {Ninja Trick -> Combat Trick}. That was indeed closed by the erratum.

What you're describing, selecting Ninja Trick (the rogue talent) to then select Rogue Talent (the ninja trick)* to then select Combat Trick (the rogue talent) {Ninja Trick -> Rogue Talent -> Combat Trick} never worked, because the CRB says "A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once.", and the ninja trick named Rogue Talent says "The ninja can select a rogue talent (...)". They use the same word; selecting a rogue talent already selected doesn't work no matter what you select it with. The original loophole worked because you didn't select a duplicate rogue talent, you selected a ninja trick (which are not covered by the rogue talent rules) that did the same.

*) Also, this sounds more like a Monty Python sketch than a character build. Just sayin'.


RigaMortus wrote:

I don't think you can, but I have seen several builds that rely on using Combat Trick multiple times to pick up feats. So I don't think these builds I am seeing are legit.

I question it because of this line:

Quote:

A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once.

Just looking for confirmation... If you CAN select this specific talent (Combat Trick) more than once, can someone cite the rule for me?

There might be ways for those builds you saw to work around that rule you cited, but I think other contributors to this thread answered your question: you cited the rule, yourself. You can't take Rogue Talent Combat Trick more than once. Either they found some other way to take Combat Feats via Rogue Talents you missed such as

Java Man wrote:
there are separate talents for weapon focus and finesse, if thoss are feats you are looking for.

observed. Otherwise, we're pretty sure those builds are as illegal as you suspect.


Combat trick can only be picked one as a rogue talent unless an archetype changes that. But that is not the only rouge talent that can give you a combat feat. Most of the others give a specific combat feat instead of allowing you to choose. Those can be taken by a character who has already taken combat trick. Weapon Training gives weapon focus. Combat Swipe gains Improved steal, and the unchained rogue version allows you to use a feat to pick up greater steal. The advanced rogue talent Bonus feat allows you to choose any feat you qualify for. Prior to unchained rogue Finesse Rogue granted weapon finesse. These are just a few off the top of my head, there are probably a couple I have forgotten. So basically you can trade out quite a few rogue talents for combat feats without having to use Combat Trick more that is allowed.

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