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Well it also reflects the attitudes of that era Imo. People forget that the way we act in 2016. Is definitely not the same when X-men # 1 was released. What we consider inappropriate behavior was not back then. It's like someone on another forum tried to convince me and others that one of his uncles came out in the 1970s and everyone was OK with it. Having been born and lived in the 1970s. One was straight if one was gay one kept it secret and hidden. In some places one could lose their job. Without out being able to do anything about it.
I'm comparing it to behavior on Leave it to Beaver or the like.
That behavior that never happened in real life at any time any where in the world?
*compares comics to...comics*
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I'm wondering if Marvel is now a victim of its own success...
The (comic book) stories and continuity, readership, fanbase, etc. had some level of integrity from the 60s to the late 90s. Writers seemed to care about what happened before they got their hands on the typewriter, and more or less respected previous stories.
Now, comics very much play second or third fiddle to the movie and merchandising sides of the business. In effect, the characters have become more important than the stories they once evoked, to the point where you have now a bunch of mascots with money signs hanging above their heads.
Lunch box with Doctor Strange on it. Fear the day that you will see it. And pray it never happens! (or has happened???)
Ahh, the mythical days of old when comics were pure and uncontaminated by success.
The days of comics based on toy lines (ROM, Micronauts, even Marvel's version of Transformers - all of which crossed over with mainstream titles.) Remember when H.E.R.B.I.E. the robot from the Fantastic Four cartoon showed up in the comics? Making characters to cash in on the martial arts craze.
And if we're talking through the late 90s, the days of multiple version bagged gimmick covers selling out to collecters who thought the massively overhyped new X-title would somehow sell for big bucks in few months?
The biggest difference is that in the early days comics were cheap disposable entertainment for kids. In the mid-80s they started to try to get themselves taken seriously, which led to some much better stories. But it also helped lower their appeal to new readers.
There's also I suspect a problem with a lot of the newer creators having grown up on comics and coming in to the field wanting to work on the characters of their youth, like they were back then.
I WISH.
Unfortunately, In MY OPINION...not true.
If it were, then Peter Parker WOULD remain married, not some crazy stunt which put him back to the early 1970s. Or where Scott and Jean were alive and well and on X-Force together along with Angel and others, while Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Storm, and Colossus ruled the X-Men. For some odd reason, those pairings from their youth aren't anywhere close to happening these days.
The problem since 2000 is that they have hacks as writers, and those writers are ALL OUT to make a name for themselves. They want to leave their mark on the hero. They want to be the New Frank Miller.
Unfortunately, 99% of them are horrible writers.
That's what really drove me away from being an avid comicbook fan (and I'm pretty certain I'm not the only one) to really not reading ANY comicbooks today.
I still will get the trades, even for comics from before when I was alive. I can enjoy the comics from the 40s all the way up to a little past 2000...and then...the writing goes WAAAAAAY downhill.
The problem is the writing is REALLY REALLY bad in comparison. Some of it may be no respect for prior storylines, part of it is no respect for the characters themselves (as I said, they all want to be the new Frank Miller).
If they could actually write interestingly enough...that might be doable. If they could write well, perhaps all those changes would actually be fun to read about, and I'd still be reading their comics. If they could write, it could be fun.
They can't.
Readership has fallen from over a million for some top selling comics to under 100K on average.
1/10 the readership...
Because they went with people who they liked, rather than those who loved the comics they were writing and respected the heritage that went with it. In addition, and even worse, they went with people they liked, instead of people who could write.
DC currently has that problem in their movie market as well.
Marvel seems to have decent writers in their movie market currently, let's hope it doesn't follow suite of how they let their comics go eventually.
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It's also because those above the writers also seems to let them just do anything and everything. Espcailly if the writer is popular. As long as writer xyz sells comics no matter how poorly written. They will just be doing whatever they hell they want with characters and titles. I like Bendis yet he is a perfect example. If it's one of his favored characters they can and will be written as being able to do anything and everything in any story he writes. I remember one of his character taking a quinn jet full of Avengers. Spider-man was one of them. Yet his spider sense does not go off at all. Simply because a character ability got in the way of his telling his story he ignored it. No writer seems to talk to another.
Continuity is thrown out the window. At one point they brought back the Brotherhood of Mutants a evil one that also included both Mystique and the Shadow King. If the writer actually did some research. He would have known that Mystique would never ever work with the SK because he killed off Destiny. With fans pointing it out. The writer kind of fixed his mistake one of the reasons she joined the Brotherhood was to get revenge against the SK. To make it worse she does nothing to him. It came across as the writer wanting to include his favorite characters in a story and did no research in the process. It's bad when the fans point out your mistake imo.
Then their the making major changes and then coming up with excuses to hide it. It's like "Were not turning X-men gay because of we want to have more sexual diversity in our comics...he was always like that from the beginning". If a comic company is implementing changes to please a certain segment of the population just come right out and admit it. They not fooling anyone imo.
The High Point of Comics was when Thor was King of Asgard. :p :)
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It's a retcon. That's how you do retcon.
I know what a retcon is thank you very much. I dislike it when they claim that the retcon was always part of the character. Their is no real proof that the character was gay. The only thing that stood out for about the character was that he was underused by the writers. With them writing him as being very unlucky with relationships with women. Hardly a case for the character being gay. To put it another way. Imagine if a writer decides to retcon that Foggy Nelson is a LMD. Then instead of saying it's a retcon. Instead claims it's the oppiste with Foggy Nelson always being a LMD from the first issue of Daredevil. It's the reason why Captain America being a Hydra agent was a retcon. Then Marvel tried to deny it claiming he was one from the start.
Should they have put him in the "Gay Conversion Machine" to turn him gay?
Gay Conversion Machine I mean really. Your better than that.
A gradual buildup of the character coming out of the closet slowly and trying to come to terms with his new found sexuality would have been nice. Instead to me at least it was "which character can we make gay to show were sexually progressive and all inclusive". You have to admit it was kind of out of the blue and it had no buildup. One minute he was straight the next he was gay. Personally I prefer he was bi-sexual.
I know what a retcon is thank you very much. I dislike it when they claim that the retcon was always part of the character.
These two statements seem at odds with each other. Like Jeff said, that's what a retcon IS. Short for "retroactive continuity". As in he is now gay and retroactively HAS ALWAYS BEEN. It's part of the definition. This is not a character change in-universe, it is a reveal of something that "always was".
Argue it's an over-used device or poor writing (I would) but complaining about the device being used as it should be is silly.
Sun,
Silly is as silly does. I guess.
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Well it's not a big thing. I simply don't like the retcon. No matter what kind it is. It was done to pander to a certain segment of the fanbase. I also don't like how they did it. To me at least it does nothing to help the character. The thing is they know need to write that aspect of the character into stories. It's all good to out a character as gay. It means nothing if they never use it again in stories.
More generally: personal taste and Sturgeon's Law. There's a lot of crap and lousy writing in comics. There's always been a lot of crap and lousy writing in comics. Entire storylines have been written years later to explain away continuity glitches.
If you think there's been a major drop in quality since the 90s, I'm not seeing it. The 90s? Really? There was certainly some good stuff, but there was also a ton of really bad stuff. Onslaught, the Clone Saga, all the ultra-pseudo-violent cheap dark and gritty imitations of Dark Knight & Watchmen, most of Image. And the collector's boom - multiple #1's bagged with different cover gimmicks so all the millions printed would skyrocket in value.
Honestly, I see MORE dark/gritty/violent stuff NOW then I did in the 90's. Everyone had big guns and pouches sure... but now you have Superboy prime ripping off arms and Captain America throwing grenades at minions. Wolverine drowning his own son in a puddle...
There have been MORE #1's in the last decade then any before it. In the 80's and 90's, you had new books starting all over the place. Web of Spider-man, Spider-man, Sensational Spider-man that all were hits... NOW? It's the same series renumbered. You have Amazing Spider-man #1 4th volume.... and Captain America #1 SEVENTH Volume... These books are lucky to go a year or two before they are restarted with a new #1... That's INFINITELY worse then what we had in the 90's.
As for Variants? We still have those two. They just are crap. We'll have the entire company go with Deadpool variants or Lego Variants or Action figure Varaints... When Wolverine died they had wolverine Variants of every comic marvel was releasing... whether Wolverine EVER had anything to do with the book.
The big difference then was that the readers actually saw them. They were produced in more even numbers and we picked the one we liked best... now they are more Comic store exclusives free with every 50 issues bought or something and they go right to Ebay... I would rather have a cool hologram robin cover any day over a weird lego cover that doesn't depict anything in the actual book.
But it's all still here. Everything BAD about the 90's was just a stepping stone to get to where we are now... Everything good about the 90's has been lost in the shuffle.
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It's also because those above the writers also seems to let them just do anything and everything. Espcailly if the writer is popular. As long as writer xyz sells comics no matter how poorly written. They will just be doing whatever they hell they want with characters and titles. I like Bendis yet he is a perfect example. If it's one of his favored characters they can and will be written as being able to do anything and everything in any story he writes. I remember one of his character taking a quinn jet full of Avengers. Spider-man was one of them. Yet his spider sense does not go off at all. Simply because a character ability got in the way of his telling his story he ignored it. No writer seems to talk to another.
Bendis is the first one I thought of... New Avengers had him write that 1) Cap would agree to Wolverine joining as their personal wetworks division..... and 2) Carnage was a life sucking energy vampire...
Which is exactly what he was in the ULTIMATE universe... but never in the 616 universe. Bendis only showed actual promise when he was working in his own little universe with his own toys. The moment he got to play in the bigger sandbox with long established characters... Marvel fell apart.
In the older days, there were actual editors who oversaw the writers and told them what they could and could not do for the great good of the company. Now? I have no idea what they do, but the inmates are in charge of the asylum. Everyone does whatever they want with no correlation between the books at all. That first Civil War was a disaster. Laws passed overnight, characters backtracking on long established views. Some writers said heroes could sign up or retire... other writers had SHIELD 'cape killers' busting down doors at midnight the day it was enacted....
It was insane. People used to complain about the iron first that Jim Shooter ran the offices... but those were some seriously good stories produced back then. now? The entire line has just become filler between events.
As for Bobby Drake, look up the first ever issue of X-men. While the other X-men are acting like normal horny teenagers when Jean Grey is introduced, Bobby is less interested.
By that logic I should be gay. All that means is that he may have been a late bloomer like I was when it came to women. It's not to say I was not interested in women. Neither was I howling at the moon everytime one walked by. Then in my late 20s I became interested in women.
And while he was a member of the Defenders one of his romantic interests was Cloud. A complex being who was both man and woman...Ah yes the infamous Cloud scene which people hold up to be proof positive he is gay. He went to sleep with Cloud in her female persona. Walks in later to find Cloud turned into her male persona. It's a awkward moment for Bobby. It's a awkward moment to be sure. It's still not proof he was gay.
Again the character was made gay simply as a sacrifice on the altar of sexual diversity. So Marvel can say their "hip, progressive and all for diversity".
Characters get reinvented all the time. Bobby's story is not nearly as out there as All-Star Batman and Robin.
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Bendis is the first one I thought of... New Avengers had him write that 1) Cap would agree to Wolverine joining as their personal wetworks division.....
Oh, this, yes. I remember Cap once telling Wolverine very clearly that he'd *never* be an Avenger, because of his casual attitude towards killing.
And now, not only has Wolverine been an Avenger, Cap is heading up a team that has *Deadpool* on it.
His next 'Avengers' team will probably have a cannibal with a chainsaw, Dracula and a 'reformed' Arcade (a guy who makes snuff films to post on youtube of the teen heroes he kills on the side).
Bendis, IIRC, is also the one who wanted Dr. Strange to be an Avenger, but needed the team to still get around by Quinjet, so that he could write scenes where everybody sat around talking on the way to missions, so Dr. Strange, who, as a Defender and solo act has teleported entire teams across time, space and dimensions, and even casually made Nighthawk a teleportation ring so that he could teleport around the world without bugging him every time, suddenly couldn't teleport anymore... Ugh.
More generally: personal taste and Sturgeon's Law. There's a lot of crap and lousy writing in comics. There's always been a lot of crap and lousy writing in comics. Entire storylines have been written years later to explain away continuity glitches.
If you think there's been a major drop in quality since the 90s, I'm not seeing it. The 90s? Really? There was certainly some good stuff, but there was also a ton of really bad stuff. Onslaught, the Clone Saga, all the ultra-pseudo-violent cheap dark and gritty imitations of Dark Knight & Watchmen, most of Image. And the collector's boom - multiple #1's bagged with different cover gimmicks so all the millions printed would skyrocket in value.
Honestly, I see MORE dark/gritty/violent stuff NOW then I did in the 90's. Everyone had big guns and pouches sure... but now you have Superboy prime ripping off arms and Captain America throwing grenades at minions. Wolverine drowning his own son in a puddle...
There have been MORE #1's in the last decade then any before it. In the 80's and 90's, you had new books starting all over the place. Web of Spider-man, Spider-man, Sensational Spider-man that all were hits... NOW? It's the same series renumbered. You have Amazing Spider-man #1 4th volume.... and Captain America #1 SEVENTH Volume... These books are lucky to go a year or two before they are restarted with a new #1... That's INFINITELY worse then what we had in the 90's.
As for Variants? We still have those two. They just are crap. We'll have the entire company go with Deadpool variants or Lego Variants or Action figure Varaints... When Wolverine died they had wolverine Variants of every comic marvel was releasing... whether Wolverine EVER had anything to do with the book.
The big difference then was that the readers actually saw them. They were produced in more even numbers and we picked the one we liked best... now they are more Comic store exclusives free with every 50 issues bought or something and they go right to...
That's really looking at the 90s through some rose colored glasses. I remember the complaints about the "successful" books you mentioned.
His next 'Avengers' team will probably have a cannibal with a chainsaw, Dracula and a 'reformed' Arcade (a guy who makes snuff films to post on youtube of the teen heroes he kills on the side).
God I hope not... Right now I'll settle for getting the main Avengers back on track with the lineup that's coming down the pike. IE Spiderman, Hercules, Thor (Jane Foster), Falcap, New Wasp (who apparently has inherited her father's obsessive streak in this most recent issue of AN&AD Avengers), and Vision.
I just wish they'd stop SCREWING with Hawkeye!!!
At least Scarlet Witch is getting better.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I just wish they'd stop SCREWING with Hawkeye!!!At least Scarlet Witch is getting better.
Take a look at the first, oh, 100 issues of DAREDEVIL. The creative team was "screwing with" the character, and his supporting cast, every other issue, and it was grand fun. But then, none of the Marvel universe was all that set-in-stone at that point.
For that matter, Stan gave Spider-man six arms. Then he married off Aunt May. Then good ol' Harry was the son of Peter's nemesis. Then Gwen was dead. The comics were "screwing with" Spider-man every couple of months.
The point being: people who want "plain vanilla Captain America storylines for a while" or "just a solid year of Iron Man stories without these 'stunts' and character changes" miss the point that significant changes in a hero's storyline are one of the hallmarks of the Marvel Age. Back when Superman and Green Lantern were as stable as Prince Valiant, Marvel titles were all over the place in terms of crazy new plotlines that continued to have ramifications for months and years down the road.
That's really looking at the 90s through some rose colored glasses. I remember the complaints about the "successful" books you mentioned.
Sure, there's some rose glasses there. But that's kind of my point. Every decade has people complaining about the books. The 90's have become a scapegoat for everything wrong with comics... but the same thing people complained about then, they celebrate now. Except it was the 90's so it must have been crap.
Take a look at the first, oh, 100 issues of DAREDEVIL. The creative team was "screwing with" the character, and his supporting cast, every other issue, and it was grand fun. But then, none of the Marvel universe was all that set-in-stone at that point.
For that matter, Stan gave Spider-man six arms. Then he married off Aunt May. Then good ol' Harry was the son of Peter's nemesis. Then Gwen was dead. The comics were "screwing with" Spider-man every couple of months.
The point being: people who want "plain vanilla Captain America storylines for a while" or "just a solid year of Iron Man stories without these 'stunts' and character changes" miss the point that significant changes in a hero's storyline are one of the hallmarks of the Marvel Age. Back when Superman and Green Lantern were as stable as Prince Valiant, Marvel titles were all over the place in terms of crazy new plotlines that continued to have ramifications for months and years down the road.
I would question the 'ramifications for months and years' bit... Storytelling was vastly different then. Spider-man had 6 arms for a total of 3 issues, and not even FULL issues at that. Most things they did to screw with characters burned bright in people's memories and then faded back to a status quo ready to set up some new awesome thing.
I've just been going back over some of my older books and I'm astonished at how short the 'major changes' actually were. Daredevil only had that black armor for about 20 issues, Captain America only wore that USAgent suit for about 13 issues... The famous 90's 'power armor' that was so reviled? About 7 issues total.
Brubaker brought back Bucky as Winter Soldier... and it too 2 whole TPBs for them to even meet face to face. With a few filler issues in there too. I think was #13 or 14 where they clashed... What took him 14 issues to write Gruenwald would have done in 2 or 3 issues tops and moved on to new adventures...
What was set aside? There were a few tie in books... but they were mostly 1 or 2 issue sidesteps then went back to their regularly scheduled stories. It seemed to flow pretty naturally to me. Daredevil, Mr. Fantastic, Spider-man all doing their things, when they're jumped by their dopplegangers, who they defeat and go back to their regular stories. If you didn't read the infinity books There was a slight hiccup, but it wasn't all consuming. And just because the Infinity story went on for 6 months they didn't line up with the regular books. Spider-man was off fighting Thanos, but Amazing Spider-man, Spider-man, Specacular Spider-man and Web of Spider-man didn't all go on hiatus till he got back... they just kept going with the assumption that he left and got back between panels. If you didn't read Infinity Gauntlet you weren't lost when you read Daredevil.
Gauntlet didn't have very many tie ins at all... I only saw one Spider-man issue where he 'died,' but it was a self contained story that actually didn't fit in with the mini series... there were probably a few others.
Infinity War was just fun. I loved that series and the tie ins got me to read a few books I normally didn't...
infinity crusade was a bit worse... in all regards, Never even finished that one, and there were 2 Darkhawk issues I think that dealt with sitting around Avenger Mansion planning the attack, but it still wasn't near as disruptive as things like Secret Invasion, House of M, AvX or Civil War.
If anything I'd say Operation Galactic Storm was worse then the Infintiy books. ANyone involved with the Avengers seemed to have their solos sucked into that event...
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Bendis, IIRC, is also the one who wanted Dr. Strange to be an Avenger, but needed the team to still get around by Quinjet, so that he could write scenes where everybody sat around talking on the way to missions, so Dr. Strange, who, as a Defender and solo act has teleported entire teams across time, space and dimensions, and even casually made Nighthawk a teleportation ring so that he could teleport around the world without bugging him every time, suddenly couldn't teleport anymore... Ugh.
I had to stop buying the most recent Dr. Strange series. It was getting too idiotic for me. For one, they suddenly established that every little bit of magic anyone ever does has bad consequences (so much so that Wong had to establish a secret monastery where adapts took on themselves all the bad health effects that would have affected Strange, except for the affect of him not being able to eat normal earth food, of course). Then, of course, there was one of my pet peeves of modern comic writing - the introductory storyline was going on through at least the first 10 or 11 issues. Plus, I think they had a miniseries on the side.
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You want to talk filler between events? Three Years of Infinity.
For six months, every title must set aside all its supporting characters and ongoing storylines for Infinity Gauntlet. Then they get six issues to get back on track, when - bam! Infinity War. Six months of that and then another six months for your own story. Then along came Infinity Crusade and it started again.
Any title that wasn't already established well before was lucky to survive, since 18 of 36 issues had nothing to do with anything and were often disjointed random events taking place in the middle of the main Event story. A six issue arc per year won't hold an audience very well.
For me, things like this have been a major turning off point for the industry as a whole - too many big crossover events involving multiple titles and characters. It's been an especially egregious sin for many years now. The X-books have had the problem for a long time. So have the Bat-books. Just to name two.
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If you're never NOT having a "special" event, then the events aren't special anymore.
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I had to stop buying the most recent Dr. Strange series. It was getting too idiotic for me. For one, they suddenly established that every little bit of magic anyone ever does has bad consequences (so much so that Wong had to establish a secret monastery where adapts took on themselves all the bad health effects that would have affected Strange, except for the affect of him not being able to eat normal earth food, of course). Then, of course, there was one of my pet peeves of modern comic writing - the introductory storyline was going on through at least the first 10 or 11 issues. Plus, I think they had a miniseries on the side.
I actually like the series quite a bit, but then, I like most things Jason Aaron puts his fingers on and second, I've never been really invested in Stephen Strange, so any continuity issues I simply don't care about.
To be honest, I don't agree with most of the things in this thread said about modern Marvel. I'm reading a lot of the old comics nowadays and most of the time, I don't find them anyhow superior to what we get today.
This said, the one thing I agree with is that storylines go through too many issues in the meantime. Sometimes I think that they need to write 5 issues of what would have been a single number in the Marvel beginnings. It's simply too much characterization sometimes, especially in the teambooks when they feel they have to put the spotlight even on those characters who have nothing to do with the actual storyline at all.
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If you're never NOT having a "special" event, then the events aren't special anymore.
The size and scope of the Infinity storyline, however and IMO, was unprecedented, due to that whole incursion / multiverse contraction phenomenon, which gave green light to writers to merge the Ultimate Marvel characters with the original / canon / Earth 616 characters.
This storyline, which I followed to its conclusion, is what made me drop my Marvel titles.
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I liked pretty much everything about it - except for the consequences. [...]
And I kind of assume it didn't so much give "green light to writers to merge" as "was written specifically to merge". It's the merging and the reboot I'm not fond of.
::bows to thejeff:: my thoughts exactly... thanks for articulating them better than I did! :)
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Reminds me of the original Crisis in that sense.
Ditto, and since I ended up hating the results of Crisis, I don't really get warm fuzzies about this event either.
Heroes from other (now dead) universes having jumped ship and survived to join 'our' universe, while the millions, trillions, whatever people that they were supposed to be protecting all died screaming kind of bugs me. It bugged me in the '80s, when the only 'heroes' who went down with their ship was the Earth 3 Crime Syndicate, while Captain Marvel, Captain Atom, etc. skipped free of the destruction of their universes, and I'm not particularly fond of it happening again.
It took DC decades to undo pretty much all of the results of Crisis (some sooner than others, Supergirl was back almost immediately, the Multiverse later, first as 'Hypertime' and then, unapologetically, just back as the Multiverse, finally Barry Allen). I wonder how long it will take Marvel to undo the Incursions?
I'm not a fan of how it turned into a pissing match between the Black Panther and Namor, either, and how blowing up people's countries because you were pissed at them became a cool thing that super-heroes do, and then brag about.
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All I know is The Beyonders killed all my favorite Cosmic Entities and some how, Jim Starlin made me feel better with his Thanos stuff.
That and the fact I'm okay with a mixture of Earth 616 and Earth 1610.
If only because I get two awesome Spider people.
All I know is The Beyonders killed all my favorite Cosmic Entities and some how, Jim Starlin made me feel better with his Thanos stuff.
That and the fact I'm okay with a mixture of Earth 616 and Earth 1610.
If only because I get two awesome Spider people.
isn't it 3. I thought we still had Spider-man 2099 floating around in the present day.
Parker Tech, employing scientists from 80 years in the future, today
All I know is The Beyonders killed all my favorite Cosmic Entities and some how, Jim Starlin made me feel better with his Thanos stuff.
That and the fact I'm okay with a mixture of Earth 616 and Earth 1610.
If only because I get two awesome Spider people.
Don't you get about a half dozen Spider people? I've lost track.
And I kind of assumed the cosmic entities came back with everything else.
No...because if that were the case, then the Living Tribunal wouldn't have died the first time.
So now we have a version of that which is also quasi-Adam Warlock.
Also yes, I forgot about Spiderman 2099. Mostly because I keep waiting for him to swing back to his time.
going through the Secret Wars graphic novel right now (new Secret Wars with Doom as God) - I must say they've done a good job at keeping the essential stuff and ditching the confusing, less relevant side comics...
You mean the stuff like Secret Wars Infinity Gauntlet? Cause I could totally have passed on that.
Less so on Battleworld stuff. I like that.
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going through the Secret Wars graphic novel right now (new Secret Wars with Doom as God) - I must say they've done a good job at keeping the essential stuff and ditching the confusing, less relevant side comics...You mean the stuff like Secret Wars Infinity Gauntlet? Cause I could totally have passed on that.
Less so on Battleworld stuff. I like that.
Yep... halfway through the book and no mention on Infinity Gauntlet so far...
Purple,
It does appear at the end but yeah I was talking about the mini-series less than the appearance.
Purple,
You should only watch Netflix for when they start airing Luke Cage.
Also I promise no spoilers.
Yep. No spoilers *writes a note and sends it an e-mail for Purple* ;)