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do feats like "Mounted Onslaught" and "Charge through" & Trample work together or is something lost in the feat combination?
mainly would I with these feats be able to overrun more than 1 target when charging
and with comnbat reflexes would the mount be able to make a hoof attack once against each overruned target or just 1?
When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
On your turn you may overrun more than one creature. Each overrun combat maneuver check beyond the first has a cumulative –5 penalty. If you fail to overrun a target, your movement ends. Your mount may only make a single hoof attack against one target that is knocked prone by your overrun (not one per prone opponent).
To be fair, mounted combat is a mess and I haven't bothered to keep up to speed on who is charging when, who needs which feats, etc. That being said, I would allow it barring someone pointing out a consideration I haven't given much thought to. Heavy investment for what likely won't do a ton. Though it is thematically cool for the stereotypical heavy cavalry.
Charge Through lets you overrun as a part of a charge. Mounted Onslaught lets you make multiple overruns in a turn seemingly without being tied specifically to taking a particular action to do it. Since I don't see any obvious action restrictions for Mounted Onslaught (a la Vital Strike), I think you're probably fine.
As Kain noted above though, it's mounted combat so expect a heavy dose of table variation. Perfectly fine for a home game if you've chatted with your GM in advance about your character plans. Avoid like the plague for any organized play.
Two of those are easy, easier if people didn't over-read the rules.
Overrun on a charge allows you to overrun the target of your charge.
Charge Through allows you to overrun someone in the way of your charge target.
Two of those are easy, easier if people didn't over-read the rules.
Overrun on a charge allows you to overrun the target of your charge.
Charge Through allows you to overrun someone in the way of your charge target.
If you're overrunning the target of your charge where does the charge attack come in?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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If you're overrunning the target of your charge where does the charge attack come in?
At various tables I've had the following:
- You charge and over target T, you get +2 on the Overrun.
- You charge T, overrun with the charge, succeed in knocking him prone, standing over him, get +2 on the melee attack against the prone target T.
- You can overrun any number of people in your way to target T, GM has no idea why Charge Through is a feat as you get the benefit of Charge Through without taking it. So it does nothing.
Charge allows a bull rush to be used as the attack.
Overrun is a combat maneuver. Overrun says you can use it as part of a charge.
I am pretty sure there is no conflict as Overrun just replaces Bull Rush as the combat maneuver you are using.
Charge through is a bit different it allows you to, as a free action, Overrun target A (doing only what overrun allows you to do) and make the charge attack on target B (presumably with a Lance or anything really)
From the Charge entry... attacking on a charge...
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
From Overrun...
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
From bull rush...
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.
Notice both combat maneuvers say "or as part of a charge," the wording is the same.
I don't think it's overly complicated. They are the basically same combat maneuvers that exists when not charging. Bull rush pushes the target back. (up to whatever your bull rush does) Overrun knocks target down in place (or whatever you can do with Overrun) Both allow you to use up to double your movement as per the charge action. Both cases stop you in place if you fail.
Anyway my two cents.
Cheers =)
and your target is?
I know overrun is very different from other combat manoeuvers, but really with the exception of a misplaced comma it is really straight forward.
Basic charge and overrun you charge, attack and overrun the same target.
Nothing in the basic overrun rules removes the attack from the charge, nor does it remove the targeting restrictions of a charge.
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
That's the rub for a lot of people. You can't take standard actions during a charge, a FRA. The RAW is pretty explicit, but the RAI is clearly the other direction. I refuse to believe they came up with a combat maneuver, explicitly said it could used while charging, but intended for action economy to preclude that possibility.
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.That's the rub for a lot of people. You can't take standard actions during a charge, a FRA. The RAW is pretty explicit, but the RAI is clearly the other direction. I refuse to believe they came up with a combat maneuver, explicitly said it could used while charging, but intended for action economy to preclude that possibility.
Yeah I can see how people can read it otherwise, but if you understand how combat as a whole works, you know you can make a melee attack, or you can make a "combat maneuver" in place of a melee attack.
During a charge you can attack or do one of only Two combat maneuvers. The only two that say they can be used as part of a charge are Bull Rush and Overrun.
It quite clearly says to me you have 3 options when you charge... Attack, Bull Rush or Overrun. That's it, not Attack + overrun, otherwise you could Attack + Overrun when standing right next to a guy without charging.
otherwise you could Attack + Overrun when standing right next to a guy without charging.That clearly isn't an option because you don't have a rule that says you can overrun during a "not a charge" like you do for use during a charge.
Exactly it isn't an option. Just like overrun + attack isn't an option during a charge, unless you have charge through.
However rule how you like.
Cheers =)
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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However rule how you like.
+1 and thanks for making my point for me.
When I played an Overrun character, I had to spend 15 minutes before each game asking the GM how all these rules elements worked. I had a cheat sheet with options of different interpretations. Those were built by having GMs tell me how it worked with them.
The question of whether or not the charge allowed an attack when combining overrun with a charge was something I found a lot of deviation.
There is a difference in how the two effects are written (Bull Rush/Overrun) to work with charge. You either need to ignore it (which is what you are doing) or deviate in how they can be used (which is the other RAW interpretation.)
Not trying to be an ass but I disagree, there isn't much difference in how they are written with the exception of Charge specifically mentioning Bull Rush.
Charge says you get only one attack no matter how many attacks you are normally entitled to.
The rules don't say Overrun is a free action during a charge... this is something that people infer.
Charge Through specifically says you get to make an Overrun as a free action...
Anyway good chat. Look foreword to exchanging Ideas on other topics. =)
Cheers
Exactly it isn't an option. Just like overrun + attack isn't an option during a charge, unless you have charge through.otherwise you could Attack + Overrun when standing right next to a guy without charging.That clearly isn't an option because you don't have a rule that says you can overrun during a "not a charge" like you do for use during a charge.
It's also possible to attack after an Overrun with the Spiked Destroyer feat. Add to that the Bulette Charge Style tree, you get to eventually add another 1d8 + 1/2 Armor's AC Bonus + 1 1/2 Str bonus.
otherwise you could Attack + Overrun when standing right next to a guy without charging.That clearly isn't an option because you don't have a rule that says you can overrun during a "not a charge" like you do for use during a charge.Exactly it isn't an option. Just like overrun + attack isn't an option during a charge, unless you have charge through.
However rule how you like.
Cheers =)
Where is your rules support for overrun on a charge replacing the attack?
Because the rules state that you can overrun as part of a charge.
'part of' not 'instead of'. The attack on a charge is an intrinsic part of the charge and overrun does not remove it. What overrun does not do is remove the targeting requirement of charge. Thus we know that the target of your charge and the target of your overrun have to be one and the same.
Charge Through allows you to charge someone behind the person you overrun. Not normally possible because of charge restrictions.
What overrun does not do is remove the targeting requirement of charge. Thus we know that the target of your charge and the target of your overrun have to be one and the same.
I'm not sure your conclusion is a logical consequence of the first (factual) statement. Can you expound a little more on why you think this?
My reading is, if you somehow have a spare standard action during a charge, you can overrun something in your way that isn't necessarily the target of your charge. In much the same way that you pointed out that overrun does not and indeed cannot replace the attack portion of the charge action per literal RAW, there is no requirement that the targets spoken of in both charge and overrun are necessarily referring to the same target.
And as an aside, how do you actually play out, purely out of curiosity.
otherwise you could Attack + Overrun when standing right next to a guy without charging.That clearly isn't an option because you don't have a rule that says you can overrun during a "not a charge" like you do for use during a charge.Exactly it isn't an option. Just like overrun + attack isn't an option during a charge, unless you have charge through.
However rule how you like.
Cheers =)
Where is your rules support for overrun on a charge replacing the attack?
Because the rules state that you can overrun as part of a charge.
'part of' not 'instead of'. The attack on a charge is an intrinsic part of the charge and overrun does not remove it. What overrun does not do is remove the targeting requirement of charge. Thus we know that the target of your charge and the target of your overrun have to be one and the same.
Charge Through allows you to charge someone behind the person you overrun. Not normally possible because of charge restrictions.
Edit this posted by accident lol let me correct.
I'll give you a few reasons...No where in the rules does it say you get to make an Overrun as a free attack during a charge. This is something you are inferring.
Where I get my interpretation is the fact that bull rush and overrun are both combat maneuvers, and the part of the line that deals with Charge in both entries is the same. I'll copy and paste the lines in question...
Overrun As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
Bull Rush You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.
Overrun doesn't say in place of melee attack... it's true but this is not the charge version of overrun it is the basic description. Overrun is not mentioned in charge at all, so if you are saying you can charge, overrun and attack, there isn't any reason you couldn't also standard action, overrun and attack. Overrun rule is not changed between charge and standard action it the same.
Charge says you get only one attack during the charge, that is specific.
Charge Through is the only option that says you get more than one action. Useable against different targets is largely irrelevant.
Well hope that answers your question.
(let's ignore the standard action bit for now, and assume the ability works.)
Dallium, I'm not sure I can make it clearer if you accept that overrun doesn't change the targeting restrictions of charge. but let's see...
If charging restrictions apply you must have a clear charge lane to your target. If there is a creature in the way you cannot declare it as a charge target. If you cannot charge you cannot overrun as part of that charge.
If you want to charge past someone to overrun a third person, then you are not overrunning as part of the charge, you are overrunning after the charge. (on reflection this is probably the weaker argument, but I stand by it).
Does that make it clearer?
I play it by moving the comma. "As a standard action taken during your move, or as part of a charge".
Well hope that answers your question.
Yes thanks. I've bolded your points I hope it is clearer that way rather than multi quotes.
No where in the rules does it say you get to make an Overrun as a free attack during a charge. This is something you are inferring.
Where I get my interpretation is the fact that bull rush and overrun are both combat maneuvers, and the part of the line that deals with Charge in both entries is the same. I infer nothing, I read the rules and apply them. I am not the one drawing rules in from other places and inferring they also apply to overrun.
Overrun doesn't say in place of melee attack... it's true Kind of relevant don't you think. If they intended it to replace the attack they might have thought to mention it like they did in bull rush.
but this is not the charge version of overrun it is the basic description. More inference. There is no mechanical difference within the rules between overrun on a charge or overrun as part of movement. You are reading a distinction that does not exist.
Overrun is not mentioned in charge at all, so if you are saying you can charge, overrun and attack, there isn't any reason you couldn't also standard action, overrun and attack. Overrun rule is not changed between charge and standard action it the same.Not so, the overrun rules tell us we can ovverun as part of a charge, not that we can overrun as part of any other standard action. Once again reading the rules and applying them as written removes any confusion.
Charge says you get only one attack during the charge, that is specific. Overrun modifies that. It is pretty central to pathfinder that it sets a base rule, then goes onto modify and change that rule.
On the whole, I remain unconvinced.
On the whole, I remain unconvinced.
Ok fair enough we'll have to agree to disagree. =)
Cheers
If charging restrictions apply you must have a clear charge lane to your target.
I always forget that bit. You're right, I sit corrected.
Akkurscid, there are two ways to read Overrun as it's written. The more correct reading according to the rules of English (because of the positioning of the comma) is
1) Overrun is a Standard Action
AND
2) Overrun may be used during a Move Action or a Charge.
The natural consequence of this reading is that you actually can't Overrun during a Charge, because you don't have a Standard Action to spend on it. The usual tactic of "with two equally valid readings, use the one that actually works" doesn't apply here, because the other reading is significantly less valid, according to the rules of English. It is
1) Overrun is a Standard Action that may be used during a Move Action
OR
2) Overrun may be used as part of a Charge.
In this reading, Overrun is a non-action, because it doesn't have a listed action cost. It also does not relieve the requirement to make a single melee attack, because it doesn't say it does. Indeed, you are still REQUIRED to make that melee attack, even if you also somehow make an Overrun. (Never mind that the Charge rules are explicit about what square you have to move to, and Overrun only implicitly overrides them, maybe) Bullrush explicitly replaces the melee attack, THAT's the important part of the ability description, not the "may be used as part of a charge" part.
I happen to run Overrun-Charge the way you put forth, but it's a house rule largely unsupported by the RAW; it's my best guess of the intention of the ability. I also allow my players to make a second 5ft step as a Full Round Action, which is also a house rule.
I believe you have decided how the abilities interact, and are working backwards to cherry pick enough rule book entries to support the position. You don't have to do that, you can run the game however you wish, regardless of what the book says. With Overrun, it's basically a requirement, it simply doesn't work as written.
There is no evidence to support the notion that Overrun replaces the melee attack portion of the Charge according the the rules actually in the book. House rule away.
Akkurscid,
2) Overrun may be used as part of a Charge.
In this reading, Overrun is a non-action, because it doesn't have a listed action cost. It also does not relieve the requirement to make a single melee attack, because it doesn't say it does. Indeed, you are still REQUIRED to make that melee attack, even if you also somehow make an Overrun. (Never mind that the Charge rules are explicit about what square you have to move to, and Overrun only implicitly overrides them, maybe) Bullrush explicitly replaces the melee attack, THAT's the important part of the ability description, not the "may be used as part of a charge" part.
I still think that's a poor intrepertation. The way I read it Overrun is a combat maneuver, you are able to use it during a charge in the same way as you do any other Combat maneuver that being in place of an attack. Therefore you are able to charge then do Attack, or Bull Rush or Overrun. One move(double) and one attack.
The way it is interpreted here, you get one double move, one attack and one combat maneuver as a bonus attack, that's four actions.(2 moves a combat maneuver and attack) I think people are inferring the overrun as a bonus action only because it is not specifically mentioned in charge like Bull Rush is.
Overrun always takes place during movement because you move before and after the attack roll whether charging or not.
Like I said there are not two entries for Overrun, only one. The wording for how it is carried out is not different for charging and standard attack.
"Can be used as part of an charge" which is the big issue here, is a line in the first sentence of both Bull Rush and Overrun. The fact that it is being interpreted as "bonus action" in one case but not the other is suspect.
The RAW may be poorly written in this case... but I think it supports and clearly states Overrun as being a combat maneuver... and in that context it isn't a free action IMHO.
Not cherry picking rules here just getting involved in rules conversations and sometimes pointing out alternative points of view.
Anyway nice explanation. I understand that Point of view, even if I am sure it is taken out of context.
Akkurscid,
2) Overrun may be used as part of a Charge.
In this reading, Overrun is a non-action, because it doesn't have a listed action cost. It also does not relieve the requirement to make a single melee attack, because it doesn't say it does. Indeed, you are still REQUIRED to make that melee attack, even if you also somehow make an Overrun. (Never mind that the Charge rules are explicit about what square you have to move to, and Overrun only implicitly overrides them, maybe) Bullrush explicitly replaces the melee attack, THAT's the important part of the ability description, not the "may be used as part of a charge" part.
I still think that's a poor intrepertation. The way I read it Overrun is a combat maneuver, you are able to use it during a charge in the same way as you do any other Combat maneuver that being in place of an attack. Therefore you are able to charge then do Attack, or Bull Rush or Overrun. One move(double) and one attack.
AHA! Ok. We found the problem. You think you can replace the single melee attack at the end of a charge with any combat maneuver. This is false. You can replace it with a Bullrush, and only a Bullrush, because that's the only combat maneuver that explicitly says it can replace the attack at the end of the charge. You can't use a Dirty Trick, Disarm, Drag, Grapple, Reposition, or Steal in the place of that single melee attack anymore than you could use Overrun. If the system doesn't say you can do something, you generally can't do it.
The way it is interpreted here, you get one double move, one attack and one combat maneuver as a bonus attack, that's four actions.(2 moves a combat maneuver and attack) I think people are inferring the overrun as a bonus action only because it is not specifically mentioned in charge like Bull Rush is.
AHA! We found the second problem. A Charge is not a Move Action and a Standard Action. Its a Full Round Action. You don't get to double move and then pick whatever Standard Action you wish with a +2 bonus. Without any relevant special abilities or Feats, you move between 10 feet and twice your total Move, and then you MUST either a) make a single melee attack or b) Bullrush. You can't do anything else unless the rules explicitly tell you they can. Overrun has no such language.
There is no inference involved in determining the action economy of Overrun. You either read it "correctly", and it's a Standard always, or you read it in a way that almost sorta works, and it's a Non-Action. The natural consequence of choosing to move the comma within the sentence totally divorces the Standard Action clause from the charge clause. As there is no listed action cost of Overrun during a charge, it doesn't have one. It doesn't replace the melee attack because it doesn't say it can.
"Can be used as part of an charge" which is the big issue here, is a line in the first sentence of both Bull Rush and Overrun.
No, it isn't, it's completely, utterly, and totally irrelevant. Bullrush says it can work during a charge by replacing the melee attack. Great. Bullrush works. Overrun says it can be used during a charge. Full stop. By RAW, the Charger must still have a clear path to the target of the charge, they still must take the most direct path, and they still must make a single melee attack. In addition, they have taken a Full Round Action to do all that, so they don't have a Standard to spare to also Overrun, even if the Charge rules weren't totally incompatible with Overrun in the first place.
Again, Overrun replacing the single melee attack in a Charge is a totally reasonable house rule, and it's one I play myself, but it's still objectively, unequivocally a house rule.
AHA! Ok. We found the problem. You think you can replace the single melee attack at the end of a charge with any combat maneuver. This is false. You can replace it with a Bullrush, and only a Bullrush, because that's the only combat maneuver that explicitly says it can replace the attack at the end of the charge. You can't use a Dirty Trick, Disarm, Drag, Grapple, Reposition, or Steal in the place of that single melee attack anymore than you could use Overrun. If the system doesn't say you can do something, you generally can't do it.
No. I think you can replace the attack at the end of charge with either bull rush or overrun, NOT any just any combat maneuver. I said any combat maneuvers as in any other combat maneuvers... replace attacks.
AHA! We found the second problem. A Charge is not a Move Action and a Standard Action. Its a Full Round Action. You don't get to double move and then pick whatever Standard Action you wish with a +2 bonus. Without any relevant special abilities or Feats, you move between 10 feet and twice your total Move, and then you MUST either a) make a single melee attack or b) Bullrush. You can't do anything else unless the rules explicitly tell you they can. Overrun has no such language.
Over run says it can be used as part of a charge. We agree on this. What we don't agree is... it is a free action.
There is no inference involved in determining the action economy of Overrun. You either read it "correctly", and it's a Standard always, or you read it in a way that almost sorta works, and it's a Non-Action. The natural consequence of choosing to move the comma within the sentence totally divorces the Standard Action clause from the charge clause.
I am not saying it is a standard action I am saying it is a combat maneuver. It says it can be used as part of a charge. Yes! We agree on this also. What is missing is the part where it says you can do this combat maneuver as a free action or bonus action. The reference to a standard action is because the Overrun is resolved the same way for both charging and standard actions... during the move.
As there is no listed action cost of Overrun during a charge, it doesn't have one. It doesn't replace the melee attack because it doesn't say it can.
It doesn't have to say it replaces an attack because it is a combat maneuver. What it has to say is you get to do it for free or no cost.
Some of your post was semantics... I know what a full round action is lol
Well we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Akkurscid, I agree to disagree, this is just me trying to understand your point of view - from a rules perspective.
No. I think you can replace the attack at the end of charge with either bull rush or overrun, NOT any just any combat maneuver.
Yeah, this is the big sticking point for me I think. If I could understand why you think the rules on bullrush apply - unstated - to overrun I might get your point (I'd probably still disagree, but I'd understand). At the moment, from a rules perspective (not a 'how you run it' perspective), I don't get how you make that leap.
As written Bullrush replaces the charge attack. Overrun doesn't. Both are used as part of the charge. It is implicit in that that overrun is not a separate action it is part of the charge and attack.
It is not the first time that a later rule modifies the action required to do something established as a specific action earlier in the rules. Drawing a weapon for instance is a move action, but you can combine it with actually moving if you have a BAB+1. If you move 10', draw a weapon and attack that doesn't mean that you take 2 move actions and a standard action, because the rules modify the actions taken.
Well we'll just have to agree to disagree.
No, we don't. I don't agree.
No. I think you can replace the attack at the end of charge with either bull rush or overrun, NOT any just any combat maneuver. I said any combat maneuvers as in any other combat maneuvers... replace attacks.
Please cite me the rules that explicitly gives overrun the abiltity to replace the single melee attack at the end of charge. Because of the wording of the Charge ability, any exceptions MUST be explicit.
Over run says it can be used as part of a charge. We agree on this. What we don't agree it is a free action.
I don't think its a free action. I think it's a Standard Action. I'm merely saying there IS an interpretation that says its a Free Action. That's the interpretation that jumps one of the two major hurdles keeping Overrun from working, so it's an interpretation that many subscribe to.
What is missing is the part where it says you can do this combat maneuver as a free action or bonus action.
Either its a Standard Action, or it's a Non-Action. Either move the comma, or don't. If an action is described without giving it a cost, it is free. So either you can't use Overrun during a charge because it's a Standard Action, and action economy precludes that possibility, or you can't Overrun during a charge, even though it's a free action, because the rest of the charge rules preclude it.
It doesn't have to say it replaces an attack because it is a combat maneuver.
Where on Earth did you come up with this? This isn't remotely true. We've covered Bullrush. Dirty Trick, Drag, Grapple, Reposition and Steal are all standard actions. They cannot replace an melee (or any other) attack. Disarm, Sunder and Trip can all replace a melee attack, but only because they explicitly say they do. Overrun doesn't, therefore, it cannot.
Akkurscid, I agree to disagree, this is just me trying to understand your point of view - from a rules perspective.
No. I think you can replace the attack at the end of charge with either bull rush or overrun, NOT any just any combat maneuver.Yeah, this is the big sticking point for me I think. If I could understand why you think the rules on bullrush apply - unstated - to overrun I might get your point (I'd probably still disagree, but I'd understand). At the moment, from a rules perspective (not a 'how you run it' perspective), I don't get how you make that leap.
As written Bullrush replaces the charge attack. Overrun doesn't. Both are used as part of the charge. It is implicit in that that overrun is not a separate action it is part of the charge and attack.
It is not the first time that a later rule modifies the action required to do something established as a specific action earlier in the rules. Drawing a weapon for instance is a move action, but you can combine it with actually moving if you have a BAB+1. If you move 10', draw a weapon and attack that doesn't mean that you take 2 move actions and a standard action, because the rules modify the actions taken.
Ok I'll try.
These are the combat maneuvers...- Bull Rush
- Dirty Trick
- Disarm
- Drag
- Grapple
- Overrun
- Reposition
- Steal
- Sunder
- Trip
All of them by themselves say they are either standard actions and/or replace melee attacks
Only two of them say they are usable in a charge and a standard action. One of those is Bull Rush and the other is Overrun.
Bull rush always replaces an attack
Charging says that bull rush replaces the attack because it says that also in the Bull rush description.
Overrun never says it replaces any attack... but no one thinks you can do it for free... (except when charging)
Overrun does not say it replaces an attack while charging should not surprising... It actually never says it replaces any attack at all... here's the link read the whole thing...Overrun
Overrun is always resolved in movement wether standard action or not... but generally that is your turn for the round.
Overrun says it can be used during a charge... and so does bull rush. However both of those Bull Rush and Overrun end Your turn during a standard action.
My claim is using Overrun during a charge is handled exactly the same, after you resolve Overrun your turn ends.
My reasoning for this is there is no language that says this Overrun is a free action, bonus action or anything else... it just says you can use it during a charge... As I read the rules for overrun, this means the end of your turn.
Lastly to address "as part of a charge," meaning free action?
It doesn't mean free action when Bull Rush says it. "as part of a charge,"Bull Rush
Well I was going to go on about context and such, but it is pointless without a face to face because points covered before keep being brought up again and again.
Akkurscid: There are abilities that allow you to Overrun more than once, like Overbearing Onslaught and Bulette Leap. How do you these work if each Overrun is a Standard action taken during a move or charge?
My claim is using Overrun during a charge is handled exactly the same, after you resolve Overrun your turn ends.
Two things:
1) With what action are you using Overrun? You already used a Full Round Action to Charge. Even though you may use Overrun during a Charge, you still must pay the action cost.
2) If you do not or cannot make the single melee attack (or Bullrush) at the end of the Charge, you didn't Charge. The attack is not optional. I believe what you are saying is the turn works out like this:
1) Declare a Charge on target
2) Move to closest square
3) Spend [some action] to Overrun, resolve Overrun
4) Turn ends, because Overrun ends your turn
Firstly, nothing ends your turn except the player saying some version of "my turn is over." (Or the GM stepping in to encourage a slow player) You used a Full Round Action, but you may still have a Swift, any number of Free, or items or Abilities that give you access to more actions.
Secondly, You MUST attack at the end of a Charge. Not can. MUST. Have to. Not optional. Bullrush fulfills that requirement. Overrun does not. Your turn cannot end until you make that attack.
Lastly to address "as part of a charge," meaning free action?
Absolutely no one is claiming this. No one.
My reasoning for this is there is no language that says this Overrun is a free action, bonus action or anything else...
How many times do I need to say this? If there is no listed action cost, there is no action cost. Everything is free until and unless a cost is listed.
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
Note that there is no listed action cost. What kind of Action is 5ft Step?
Ok so if we agree on everything else it is simple.
Overrun is not even mentioned in Charge... so Overrun modifies Charge....
If Overrun modifies Charge... Then it will have to be resolved under Overrun...
... If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target's space. If your exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver for each additional leg it has.
This is simple logic.
Your "attack roll" is modified by Overrun to move though and possibly knock down the target of your Overrun.
If you want to rule differently and give yourself a second "attack roll" that's up to you. But it is not RAW
It was fun
Akkurscid: You ignored my post. There are abilities that allow multiple overrun tries with NO change in action type. How to YOU explain those if each is an attack that must happen during movement? It doesn't work if the action is an attack action or a standard action so what action is it do you think? Your "simple logic" breaks down here.
"Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow."
You're literally running over someone during your movement on your way to the target...
so Overrun modifies Charge
No it doesn't. Not one iota. Why on EARTH would you think it does?
But it is not RAW
Without feats, using Overrun during a charge, at all, isn't RAW. That's my entire point.
so Overrun modifies ChargeNo it doesn't. Not one iota. Why on EARTH would you think it does?
Sorry Dallium the statement entirely is your opinion, and it is an incorrect one at that. If Overrun didn't modify Charge you wouldn't be able to use it while charging regardless of which interpretation you use.
But it is not RAWWithout feats, using Overrun during a charge, at all, isn't RAW. That's my entire point.
You see you are saying RAW are broken... I totally disagree. They work fine. I showed why they work fine.
You are disagreeing with me because of your view point on how the rules should be applied.
From my view point the rules are great. I haven't run into any problems with rules in my games. Sure there are things I think should operate differently, (touch attack firearms I am looking at you) but that doesn't mean the rules are broken.
Akkurscid: You ignored my post. There are abilities that allow multiple overrun tries with NO change in action type. How to YOU explain those if each is an attack that must happen during movement? It doesn't work if the action is an attack action or a standard action so what action is it do you think? Your "simple logic" breaks down here.
"Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow."
You're literally running over someone during your movement on your way to the target...
I am sorry if you feel I ignored your post.
I have already addressed that above, for example Charge though, I supported this and used it as an example of a feat saying "you can Overrun as a free action". If you have feats that specifically say you get to do such and such as a free action or bonus action ect. That's great! I agree, but it's not really what we have been discussing the last little bit.
Akkurscid: Free action? Where does it say that. As I pointed out, NONE of those alter the action type in ANY way. The same action type is required in both. It's literally Not an Action, as no action type is given. Pretty much as it is with charge. No action type given so... The same logic that brought you to 'free actions' for multiple overruns also brings you to 'free action' for basic charges.
Overruning 5 foes uses the same action as a single foe, as the action type isn't changed.
Without feats, using Overrun during a charge, at all, isn't RAW. That's my entire point.
I am curious now about how you run Overrun in your games, Dallium.
I think my stall is fairly clearly set out, and no matter how much they misunderstand and misus the term RAW*, we know how Akkurscid would run it.
(when you have to borrow text from another ability to support your argument you cannot claim to be closer to RAW than the people who don't borrow text).
Sorry Dallium the statement entirely is your opinionso Overrun modifies ChargeNo it doesn't. Not one iota. Why on EARTH would you think it does?
No, actually, it's entirely objective fact. Overrun does not modify Charge, because it doesn't explicitly say it does.
I showed why they work fine.
When, exactly, did you do that? The only think I saw was you making a series of mistakes and twisting the words to how you think it should work, while ignoring all the evidence that definitively proves you are wrong. This isn't a difference of opinions, this is you continuing to state that the Earth is flat. You are laboring under the misconception that the rules are obligated to work. Which they aren't. Pretty much everyone agrees Overrun does not function as written. The original Prone shooter is a perfect example of how the rules aren't required to actually do anything.
I am curious now about how you run Overrun in your games, Dallium.
I house rule Overrun to allow it to replace the melee attack in a Charge, identically to Bullrush.
Well it's been a pleasure but I am off to do other things.
Cheers
I do remember Jason posting this: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lh0s&page=2?Overrun-and-Charge#65
I really hope no one was holding their breath in anticipation...