How much time to raise a Samsaran?


Rules Questions


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How much time do you have to raise a dead samsaran character?

Their cycle of rebirth and reincarnation is a clear aspect of their race, but is not mechanically defined as far as I can find. It certainly seems as though it is intended to occur sooner than once every 200 years (the maximum reach of a level 20 cleric.) Once a samsaran's soul has reincarnated, one would assume that it is no longer eligible for resurrection magic.

I suppose you could say that the soul gets to decide for itself when to reincarnate (and once it has done so, essentially refuses any future resurrection attempts, as a dead creature is allowed to do.) That probably makes the most sense, but where would such a soul reside in the meantime?

Most characters are assumed to be judged and sent on to their final resting place, but a samsaran specifically rejects that cycle, so where is their soul while waiting for a call of resurrection? Hanging out in the Boneyard, perhaps?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Pharasma is still in charge of things like reincarnation. She knows if a resurrection is going to be attempted. Beyond that, it's up to the GM. As for where the soul is, I would certainly assume it's the Boneyard.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

The time it takes for a soul to be judged after death isn't specified anywhere.
According to some Pathfinder Tales, it takes quite some time for a soul to pass along the line river of souls to get to Pharasma's spire and receive judgement, so a Samsaran soul could very well be standing in line while waiting for its reincarnation.


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1) a 20th level cleric with CL-boosting can reach even further (though not too much)*;
2) the actual reincarnate spell caps out after a week+gentle repose time;
3) I'm pretty sure the Samsaran reincarnation isn't supposed to interfere with game rules (see below);
4) this really is t the topic I thought it was upon reading the title. Heh.

While I mention in point three that I suspect the cycle of reincarnation isn't supposed to interfere with game rules, I can see your point about seeming to be implied to be faster.

One of the more interesting possibilities, however, is that Pharasma does judge the Samsaran, and sends them to where they belong - the material world. That very neatly bypasses any problems with the will they/won't they, as Pharasma already knows if/when someone is going to be raised from the dead, and either judges or refrains accordingly in Golarion more at-present. While they are thus tied to a cycle of reincarnation, it's still as cycle that Pharasma governs. As to where they are: the river of souls or Boneyard, depending. The river flows, but not always quickly, and not all things travel at the same speed along it; getting caught in its whirls or turns and coming back around is a pretty solid metaphor for reincarnation, and if they do get to Pharasma, she's just, "Sigh. Oh, honey, you're not supposed to be here yet - you need to baste more, before you're done. RTS." and suddenly they're back in a new body.

As I recall, there's also a place for certain people to go while they wait on reincarnation (this was described without the Samsaran in mind, at the time) but I'm uncertain what that is, or if I'm confusing a few things.

* Its interesting; outside of allowing stacking certain items, I'm not sure how one is expected to reach the inferred maximum CL 25 on anyone. The reason this is the inferred maximum, is because the highest capped SRs in the game are 35, making a CL 25 a 50/50 chance, but a CL 25+ focus better than that; and the highest CL-based dice caps in spells (like damage dice) are 25. There are more open ended spells, like true resurrection itself, but the fact that core spells mention caps at 25 indicates that, you know, there are supposed to be ways to reach that 25th CL at some point or another via some method or another.

Contributor

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In a Season 7 PFS Scenario, it's a plot point that it takes one specific, individual Samsaran about 15 days to reincarnate. It's likely a case of, "speed of plot," however.


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By actual rules, you have as much time as you do to raise anyone else.

But fluff wise:

'd say the biggest complication with raising Samsarans is that they expect to eventually die and reincarnate.

For a samsaran, death just means returning home and crashing in Mom's guest room for a bit before going out to see the world again.

And so an NPC samsaran is very unlikely to accept a raise spell that isn't performed promptly.

You could almost go with samsarans having a "decompression" period before reincarnating, maybe at about 1 day per year the samsaran lived. So you might have two or three months to revive the typical PC-range samsaran (60+ years old) to even a couple years to bring back an elder samsaran (800+ years old).

A samsaran refusing your raise spell can easily represent that the samsaran's already chatted with Mom and been reincarnated.

@ TL - CL 25+ isn't that unreasonable. Prayer bead of karma + orange prism ioun stone gets you to 25 on the spot (for 10 minutes - long enough to cast a res spell). Cooperative caster teamwork feat gets that up to a 26. And I'm sure that there's other ways to raise it.


Prayer beads work for arcane spells?
Cooperative caster? I'm not sure what that is. (Sorry.) Liiiiiiinky please? :D


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I think you mean the inferred maximum would be 24; A +25 is a 45/55 chance against a DC of 35.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
In a Season 7 PFS Scenario, it's a plot point that it takes one specific, individual Samsaran about 15 days to reincarnate. It's likely a case of, "speed of plot," however.

It's pretty nonstandard because you also have multiple incarnations of that character active at the same time.


Ian Bell wrote:
I think you mean the inferred maximum would be 24; A +25 is a 45/55 chance against a DC of 35.

Meh.

Blasphemy, Breath of life, Cure light wounds, mass, Dictum, Mass Heal, Holy Word, Inflict light wounds, mass, Moment of Prescience, Polar Ray, Great Prying Eyes, Sunburst, Vision, and Word of Chaos.

:)

But actually, I was wrong.

Disintegrate, Regenerate, and Mass cure/inflict critical/serious wounds all indicate a much higher CL-cap - forty (some of those linked above max out at 35; I didn't check for 30). Note that all these are in the Core - so it had to be expected to make sense within the confines of the Core, in my own opinion.

The highest SR in Core is a paladin's mount, which is SR 31 (unless the implied CL holds, in which case, it's SR 52), and the highest extant SR in the bestiary is SR 36 for the tarrasque (with maximum 35 for half-celestial and half-fiend templates as number two, 34 for solar in third, 31 for balors as fourth, and 30 for ancient red and silver dragons and shoggoths as fifth).

:D

EDIT: Coding! XD


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Tacticslion wrote:

Prayer beads work for arcane spells?

Cooperative caster? I'm not sure what that is. (Sorry.) Liiiiiiinky please? :D

I got the name completely wrong, which doesn't help.

Allied Spellcaster teamwork feat.

The +1 caster level would require both casters to have the raise spell being used.

The prayer bead of karma can activated by an arcane caster using UMD to fake being a divine caster. The +4 to caster level has no restrictions once activated.

As to caster level - keep in mind that most demigod-class entities cast spells at a level equal to their CR, with potentially really brutal results (like Nocticula or Pazuzu dropping mythic blasphemies at an effective CL of 40 against non-mythic opponents.) So a CR 30 demigod could reliably hit a CL of 35 with equipment and UMD.

I'd missed your request for clarification. Sorry about that.


Tacticslion wrote:

Prayer beads work for arcane spells?

Cooperative caster? I'm not sure what that is. (Sorry.) Liiiiiiinky please? :D
Zhangar wrote:

I got the name completely wrong, which doesn't help.

Allied Spellcaster teamwork feat.

The +1 caster level would require both casters to have the raise spell being used.

The prayer bead of karma can activated by an arcane caster using UMD to fake being a divine caster. The +4 to caster level has no restrictions once activated.

As to caster level - keep in mind that most demigod-class entities cast spells at a level equal to their CR, with potentially really brutal results (like Nocticula or Pazuzu dropping mythic blasphemies at an effective CL of 40 against non-mythic opponents.) So a CR 30 demigod could reliably hit a CL of 35 with equipment and UMD.

I'd missed your request for clarification. Sorry about that.

Thanks! No problem about any of that stuff - I do the same (forget/lose track/etc.)!

Those are pretty awesome catches, however! Well done!

What about the CL 40?

Allied caster and a prayer bead could get you up to 25, and an orange prism ioun stone grants an extra +1 to CL up to 26th, sharesister gets another +1, but that's still missing an extra thirteen from the actual core explicit maximum CL.

Actually... do they all stack?

I'm going to go searching...

- sharesister is +1 insight
- Allied Spellcaster is a +1 untyped bonus (but the language is unclear if it's limited to only a single caster or not)
- Necklace of Prayer Beads is +4 untyped, and from a different source
- orange prism ioun stone is a +1 untyped bonus
- moon circlet (NEW ITEM) merely increases the level by (up to) two instead of granting a bonus
- death knell (NEW SPELL) improves CL effects by one and is not a bonus (though the onyx spear is, and is clearly based on that spell)

All told, that's +1+2+1+4+1+1 = +3+5+2 = +8+2 = +10.

Hmp. Still not quite enough... PCs will max out at at CL 30, which is impressive, but not quite the heights we're hypothetically looking for.

(Also, it requires at least one dead person.)

Certainly those demigods could do it, but I'd be surprised if that's really all that such things are for. Still, this was quite an enlightening search.

(Anything else looks like a spoiler, is overly-specific about what function or part of CL increases - which doesn't actually apply to the Core spells where it would matter -, or is for the wrong class.)

EDIT: Oops! One wrong typo and forgetting it's a typo/proceeding as if I'd done the right thing going three steps forward... oops! Fixed!


Keep in mind that the Core Rulebook doesn't rule out simply going past 20th level.

(And of course there's the 3.X Epic Level Handbook.)

Just because a spell scales past 20th level doesn't mean PCs are expected to be able to cap it out. The CRB is as much the GM's toolkit as it is the players'.

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