Lupin Conversion; resurrecting an old Paizo race


Conversions

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To make a long story short, I found a race Paizo created stats for when they originally published Dragon Magazine for Wizards of the Coast (and the stats, fluff, ect exist in the Paizo published book Dragon Compendium http://paizo.com/products/btpy8xa2?Dungeons-Dragons-The-Dragon-Compendium-V olume-1-Hardcover ); this race was the Lupin, a wolf-like species somewhat akin to Cat-Folk. Coming into Pathfinder as a serious player who could explore my options I was sad to have found that even in the Advanced Race Guide there was no inclusion of anything based on things Paizo had made long ago. As of such I have taken to the race maker in the Advanced Race Guide, albeit with a few tweaks, and have made a comprehensive Pathfinder version of the race, and hopefully if enough people come to enjoy this, people will not shy away at the idea of playing this race because of it (at least at the moment) being homebrew.

Since I don't know if Paizo has the rights to the name Lupin still or any of the content in the book they come from, I am not supplying their original stats or originally printed lore, and I am changing the race's name from "Lupin" to "Lupine".

Note I have not supplied very much of my own fluff for this race at all besides that there were isolated from most of the standard races for quite a long time and only recently have they begun to integrate into civilized society, however the effects of civilization on their kind are apparent.

This Draft of the race is a WIP despite it's comprehensive state. It does not contain original approximations or similar "work notes". If you'd like to see that draft with my work notes, please PM me.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w4rm124rnq0jv6l/Pathfinder%20Lupine%20-%20Alpha%2 0Draft.rtf?dl=0


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I could stand to have less furry in my Pathfinder, actually. Kind of glad this was left behind.


DominusMegadeus wrote:
I could stand to have less furry in my Pathfinder, actually. Kind of glad this was left behind.

Well it's your choice to not use it. But could you still take a look at the mechanics at least? Also on the subject of less furry, what else is even a furry character option besides Cat-Folk and Skin-Walkers; granted Skin-Walkers kinda side-step the furry moniker by being shape changers.


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Vanara, Catfolk, Kitsune, Gnoll, Ratfolk. Things like Kobolds and Tengu don't really count, but the same sort of people seem to gravitate to animal races of all kinds. It's tasteful fantasy on Paizo's side, but the creepiness can start to bleed through when players get a hold of them.

Just my experience in this wasteland we call the internet.


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I never understood this in D&D/Pazio as a complaint on races. There are octopus people, shark people, cat people, rat people, demonic people, angelic people, shadow people, elemental people, androids, etc.. There is already so much other than human and tolkein. What's the problem with using this? Is it really any more strange than sentient machines, planar half breeds, and all the other crazy that is out there? There are so many alternate races out there that I just don't see this as a valid complaint anymore, if you are okay with the other stuff. Plus there is the old thing of "What is wrong with having more options?" and "If you don't like it, you don't have to play it."


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DominusMegadeus wrote:

Vanara, Catfolk, Kitsune, Gnoll, Ratfolk. Things like Kobolds and Tengu don't really count, but the same sort of people seem to gravitate to animal races of all kinds. It's tasteful fantasy on Paizo's side, but the creepiness can start to bleed through when players get a hold of them.

Just my experience in this wasteland we call the internet.

Oh yeah forgot about those and I completely agree. Of course I have an eye for keeping the creepers out of my games and to not be creepy myself but I have had my fair share of experiences. I never intended for this to enable creepers.

Kinda off topic but do you have an experience to share? You read up the story of the infamous furry D&D player North as well?


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If you don't like the creepers, there is a simple fix. Don't play with them. Tell them they are not welcome at your table. Simple, and done.

Also I don't see why you don't count bird people and reptile people there.

Also, I have seen a massive amount of creepy over the years with elf fans.


Jaçinto wrote:
I never understood this in D&D/Pazio as a complaint on races. There are octopus people, shark people, cat people, rat people, demonic people, angelic people, shadow people, elemental people, androids, etc.. There is already so much other than human and tolkein. What's the problem with using this? Is it really any more strange than sentient machines, planar half breeds, and all the other crazy that is out there? There are so many alternate races out there that I just don't see this as a valid complaint anymore, if you are okay with the other stuff. Plus there is the old thing of "What is wrong with having more options?" and "If you don't like it, you don't have to play it."

I don't want to blow this up out of proportion like most internet arguments. I'd like to see what everyone thinks without this being a battlefield. I must collect the opinions of the mechanics more than anything.


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Fair enough Darbius. I'm not defending any group of people as weirdness exists everywhere. I just don't understand the hatred of certain races in the game. Displeasure with the players, yes I totally get that. I have seen people go way too far with certain things.


Jaçinto wrote:

If you don't like the creepers, there is a simple fix. Don't play with them. Tell them they are not welcome at your table. Simple, and done.

Also I don't see why you don't count bird people and reptile people there.

Also, I have seen a massive amount of creepy over the years with elf fans.

True but that's kinda blown off nowadays as comedic. What's your opinion on the mechanics and mechanical value of what I have presented?


The address does not work for me.


Darbius Maximus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:

Vanara, Catfolk, Kitsune, Gnoll, Ratfolk. Things like Kobolds and Tengu don't really count, but the same sort of people seem to gravitate to animal races of all kinds. It's tasteful fantasy on Paizo's side, but the creepiness can start to bleed through when players get a hold of them.

Just my experience in this wasteland we call the internet.

Oh yeah forgot about those and I completely agree. Of course I have an eye for keeping the creepers out of my games and to not be creepy myself but I have had my fair share of experiences. I never intended for this to enable creepers.

Kinda off topic but do you have an experience to share? You read up the story of the infamous furry D&D player North as well?

Never heard of him, but I'm always up for a chronicle of humanity's failure. Got a link?


Jaçinto wrote:
Fair enough Darbius. I'm not defending any group of people as weirdness exists everywhere. I just don't understand the hatred of certain races in the game. Displeasure with the players, yes I totally get that. I have seen people go way too far with certain things.

Oh hell yeah regardless of race. I got a guy I ahd to threaten to kick because he kept trying to shove philosophy so many different things were the same to excuse acting out of his neutral alignment so often, more the sense of interrogation and torture were the same, that bargaining and trying to diplomatically reason with prisoners was the same as (this specific example incited the problem) "stabbing glass into people and breaking off the pieces".


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DominusMegadeus wrote:
Darbius Maximus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:

Vanara, Catfolk, Kitsune, Gnoll, Ratfolk. Things like Kobolds and Tengu don't really count, but the same sort of people seem to gravitate to animal races of all kinds. It's tasteful fantasy on Paizo's side, but the creepiness can start to bleed through when players get a hold of them.

Just my experience in this wasteland we call the internet.

Oh yeah forgot about those and I completely agree. Of course I have an eye for keeping the creepers out of my games and to not be creepy myself but I have had my fair share of experiences. I never intended for this to enable creepers.

Kinda off topic but do you have an experience to share? You read up the story of the infamous furry D&D player North as well?

Never heard of him, but I'm always up for a chronicle of humanity's failure. Got a link?

Hell to the yeah. Here you go sir: http://imgur.com/hpgwFY2


Darbius Maximus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Darbius Maximus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:

Vanara, Catfolk, Kitsune, Gnoll, Ratfolk. Things like Kobolds and Tengu don't really count, but the same sort of people seem to gravitate to animal races of all kinds. It's tasteful fantasy on Paizo's side, but the creepiness can start to bleed through when players get a hold of them.

Just my experience in this wasteland we call the internet.

Oh yeah forgot about those and I completely agree. Of course I have an eye for keeping the creepers out of my games and to not be creepy myself but I have had my fair share of experiences. I never intended for this to enable creepers.

Kinda off topic but do you have an experience to share? You read up the story of the infamous furry D&D player North as well?

Never heard of him, but I'm always up for a chronicle of humanity's failure. Got a link?
Hell to the yeah. Here you go sir: http://imgur.com/hpgwFY2

Good god, I'm only at the third post and I'm dying. No one man should have all that cringe.


So much cringe. I only was able to get through the first part. Why do people feel they need to shove what they are into people's faces? Nobody wants to see that. Nobody cares. People want to just go about their day. This kid just..just no.


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I'd love to see conversions of all the Dragon Compendium races. Tibbits, diopsids, and especially dvati (which I would think would be very interesting to adapt into a system with Teamwork feats).

Also, I'm with Jacinto. The link is broken.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I'd love to see conversions of all the Dragon Compendium races. Tibbits, diopsids, and especially dvati (which I would think would be very interesting to adapt into a system with Teamwork feats).

Also, I'm with Jacinto. The link is broken.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/hpgwFY2.png[/img]

I might consider doing that.


Jaçinto wrote:
So much cringe. I only was able to get through the first part. Why do people feel they need to shove what they are into people's faces? Nobody wants to see that. Nobody cares. People want to just go about their day. This kid just..just no.

The problem is more or less he's acting like an extreme manchild. At that point you kinda learn when to just say "f$$~ off". there was a simialr case witha guy named Luke: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Luke


DominusMegadeus wrote:
Darbius Maximus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Darbius Maximus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:

Vanara, Catfolk, Kitsune, Gnoll, Ratfolk. Things like Kobolds and Tengu don't really count, but the same sort of people seem to gravitate to animal races of all kinds. It's tasteful fantasy on Paizo's side, but the creepiness can start to bleed through when players get a hold of them.

Just my experience in this wasteland we call the internet.

Oh yeah forgot about those and I completely agree. Of course I have an eye for keeping the creepers out of my games and to not be creepy myself but I have had my fair share of experiences. I never intended for this to enable creepers.

Kinda off topic but do you have an experience to share? You read up the story of the infamous furry D&D player North as well?

Never heard of him, but I'm always up for a chronicle of humanity's failure. Got a link?
Hell to the yeah. Here you go sir: http://imgur.com/hpgwFY2
Good god, I'm only at the third post and I'm dying. No one man should have all that cringe.

I will admit I am actually a furry but holy shit stuff like that makes me check my privaledge at the table.

Here another one: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Luke


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Darbius Maximus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Darbius Maximus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Darbius Maximus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:

Vanara, Catfolk, Kitsune, Gnoll, Ratfolk. Things like Kobolds and Tengu don't really count, but the same sort of people seem to gravitate to animal races of all kinds. It's tasteful fantasy on Paizo's side, but the creepiness can start to bleed through when players get a hold of them.

Just my experience in this wasteland we call the internet.

Oh yeah forgot about those and I completely agree. Of course I have an eye for keeping the creepers out of my games and to not be creepy myself but I have had my fair share of experiences. I never intended for this to enable creepers.

Kinda off topic but do you have an experience to share? You read up the story of the infamous furry D&D player North as well?

Never heard of him, but I'm always up for a chronicle of humanity's failure. Got a link?
Hell to the yeah. Here you go sir: http://imgur.com/hpgwFY2
Good god, I'm only at the third post and I'm dying. No one man should have all that cringe.

I will admit I am actually a furry but holy s+*+ stuff like that makes me check my privaledge at the table.

Here another one: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Luke

See, you're a decent human being who happens to be a furry. That's fine, you do you. So many others seem to get that backwards. They somehow get so sucked into it that they forget that other people in the world have to coexist with them.


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I don't have a bone in this fight as I'm not a furry nor hate them, but I'm sligtly amused that some people here are against an option just in order to spite a category of people thay may or may not interact with.


Darbius Maximus wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I'd love to see conversions of all the Dragon Compendium races. Tibbits, diopsids, and especially dvati (which I would think would be very interesting to adapt into a system with Teamwork feats).

Also, I'm with Jacinto. The link is broken.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/hpgwFY2.png[/img]

I might consider doing that.

No, dude. The dropbox link is broken. Copy and paste goes to an error page.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Your link to your lupine is not working.

==Aelryinth


Darbius Maximus wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I'd love to see conversions of all the Dragon Compendium races. Tibbits, diopsids, and especially dvati (which I would think would be very interesting to adapt into a system with Teamwork feats).

Also, I'm with Jacinto. The link is broken.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/hpgwFY2.png[/img]

I might consider doing that.

Uh, that's okay, we got that link. Very nice. I mean the link to the actual conversion.


I'm not sure if they began there. But there was a Mystaran Savage Coast campaign with lupins, tortles, aranea, mutants, and cat people. It brought in a wild west plus three musketeers theme and had guns. The individual races were often associated with particular nations.


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Okay, I worked out what the link's problem was.

Fixed Lupin Link.


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I'd love to see a Dvati conversion. might do one myself in the future. A little surprised that paizo hasn't done that yet...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Two differences: First was their ability scores. I don't see them as particularly intelligent or dextrous. Wolves have the reputation of being cunning, which is Wis, and tough, which is con. So, I'd go +2 Wis and +2 Con, -2 Cha before anything. Domesticated archetype, just swap wis and cha bonuses.

Second, they should be humanoid (Lupine) just like catfolk and ratfolk are. They aren't gnolls. vast majority of monstrous humanoids have racial hit die, and I think you want this to be a PC race.

I probably just missed it, but did they have a racial favored class? Probably Ranger or Hunter.

==Aelryinth


I would make the saving throw penalty just a 1-pt drawback—generally, it's my experience that drawbacks should not give points exactly proportional to benefits. And it's a pretty specific effect anyways. Even that's generous—Plagueborn affects a ton of useful stuff, and it's only worth 1 point. Making this worth -1 point is definitely rounding up.

The speak with animals variant ability is really strange. Why not mimic the gnome's 1/day ability? They're very similar.

Cold-Acclimated: What Expert Rider and Keen Ears really amount to is Skill Training (1-pt) and two purchases of Skill Bonus (4-pt). Total value is 5 points. Mountain-Born is 1 point, saving throw bonus is 1 point, and "ice, snow and sleet are not considered difficult terrain" should be swapped for Terrain Stride (cold), which is 1 point. Overall, a slightly unbalanced trade, but not that bad. Could be simplified, certainly.

Enlarged Canines: 1d4 Bite costs 2 points, Skill Bonus costs 2 points, so you're gaining 4 points in exchange for a Charisma dump. Not really great design for something meant to be a race (-4s are not PC-friendly), but it's a variant, so it's not a huge deal. The real problem is you're swapping 4 points for an effective 1-point gain. That's unbalanced, and it's especially problematic since you're picking an easy dump stat for the sort of character who likes a bite attack. I would pick something other than the ability score penalty, but that's just me.

Were-Regression: Well, I'm not really sure why we need a catperson lupin, but regardless, this isn't really that balanced. You're giving up what's basically a 2.5-point ability in exchange for Cat's Claws. Cat's Claws is an alternate racial trait replacing a 6-point ability. It's not a super-powerful ability that you get, admittedly.

Silver Crusade

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I second the idea that the race shouldn't get a bonus in Dexterity since I don't see wolf races being particularly dextrous. Almost all of the animal races already currently have bonuses to Dexterity too so giving them something different would be nice. Either Con or Str would be a good physical bonus to have.

For Enlarged Canines, getting a -2 Cha but a +2 to Intimidate ends up being only a +1 to intimidate because Intimidate is a Cha-based skill, just to make sure you're aware. I would just say to have it replace Keen Ears, Strong Nose or Expert Rider instead of giving a -2 to Cha.

General thoughts on Natural Attacks: Natural Attacks are extremely strong when built around them so I would be careful of letting a player stack them. You should also specify whether the claws and bite are primary or secondary natural attacks. My recommendation would be that if they replace the same trait then make them primary attacks. If they replace two separate traits then make one of them a secondary attack.


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Aelryinth wrote:


I probably just missed it, but did they have a racial favored class? Probably Ranger or Hunter.

I don't think that is a thing in pathfinder, unless i have been playing wrong all this time.


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I could see replacing Expert Rider, actually. That sort of makes sense—you get scarier and more wolflike, and horses don't like you as much because of it.


Aelryinth wrote:

Two differences: First was their ability scores. I don't see them as particularly intelligent or dextrous. Wolves have the reputation of being cunning, which is Wis, and tough, which is con. So, I'd go +2 Wis and +2 Con, -2 Cha before anything. Domesticated archetype, just swap wis and cha bonuses.

Second, they should be humanoid (Lupine) just like catfolk and ratfolk are. They aren't gnolls. vast majority of monstrous humanoids have racial hit die, and I think you want this to be a PC race.

I probably just missed it, but did they have a racial favored class? Probably Ranger or Hunter.

==Aelryinth

I really kinda want to keep the monstrous humanoid typing as that was what they're previous incarnation was (surprisingly without HD) but would it be fair to make their typing Monstrous Humanoid as an alternate trait then?


I can't seem to make any versions of my link work so please use Kobold Cleaver's link.

I don't want to change the typing from Monstrous Humanoid immediately to keep the original feel of the race intact, however I might be more inclined if I get your opinions on an idea: having monstrous humanoid typing as an alternate trait?


DominusMegadeus wrote:
Darbius Maximus wrote:


DominusMegadeus wrote:
Darbius Maximus wrote:


Hell to the yeah. Here you go sir: http://imgur.com/hpgwFY2

Good god, I'm only at the third post and I'm dying. No one man should have all that cringe.

I will admit I am actually a furry but holy s+*+ stuff like that makes me check my privaledge at the table.

Here another one: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Luke

See, you're a decent human being who happens to be a furry. That's fine, you do you. So many others seem to get that backwards. They somehow get so sucked into it that they forget that other people in the world have to coexist with them.

Exactly. They have to understand it's almost a team sport, not a reality TV show/fashion show, or in some cases a whore house if they've got no sexual inhibitions. Instead they let their irrationality and personal desire rule. I try to stray away from that, even if it eventually detriments me to a degree; who do you think volunteers to fill roles missing no matter how oddly specific or as well as one given information by the most vague or contradictory of DM can? :D

Silver Crusade

Darbius Maximus wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Two differences: First was their ability scores. I don't see them as particularly intelligent or dextrous. Wolves have the reputation of being cunning, which is Wis, and tough, which is con. So, I'd go +2 Wis and +2 Con, -2 Cha before anything. Domesticated archetype, just swap wis and cha bonuses.

Second, they should be humanoid (Lupine) just like catfolk and ratfolk are. They aren't gnolls. vast majority of monstrous humanoids have racial hit die, and I think you want this to be a PC race.

I probably just missed it, but did they have a racial favored class? Probably Ranger or Hunter.

==Aelryinth

I really kinda want to keep the monstrous humanoid typing as that was what they're previous incarnation was (surprisingly without HD) but would it be fair to make their typing Monstrous Humanoid as an alternate trait then?

Gnolls were also Monstrous humanoids in 3rd but Pathfinder changed them to Humanoid (Gnoll).


Rysky wrote:
Gnolls were also Monstrous humanoids in 3rd but Pathfinder changed them to Humanoid (Gnoll).

I see... that kinda messes with my brain in terms of getting into Paizo's brain but if all the bestial humanoids aren't Monstrous Humanoids I'll probably just make them being a Monstrous Humanoid an alternate trait.

Silver Crusade

Darbius Maximus wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Gnolls were also Monstrous humanoids in 3rd but Pathfinder changed them to Humanoid (Gnoll).
I see... that kinda messes with my brain in terms of getting into Paizo's brain but if all the bestial humanoids aren't Monstrous Humanoids I'll probably just make them being a Monstrous Humanoid an alternate trait.

Yeah, basically the designated Monstrous Humanoids as creatures with unique abilities rather than just bestial features, like Lamia and Medusa and Harpies.


Darbius Maximus wrote:
Hell to the yeah. Here you go sir: http://imgur.com/hpgwFY2

Oh god this is glorious

Greentext stories always deliver


Can't view this right now but I'll help later.


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I like what you have so far, but I wish to add that Lupines are not a Piazo created race. They've been around since Basic as monsters and given player stats in 2nd ed as part of the Red Steel setting and a Dragon magazine article that introduced a large number of subraces based on the various dog breeds and related species (including a small sized one based on the fennec fox) The ones in Red Steel mostly came from a country with a mixture of Colonial France and Spain like culture. But I think the original write up in the adventure they appeared in had them more Native American and wolf-like. Paizo went is that it seems.


Eviljames wrote:
I like what you have so far, but I wish to add that Lupines are not a Piazo created race. They've been around since Basic as monsters and given player stats in 2nd ed as part of the Red Steel setting and a Dragon magazine article that introduced a large number of subraces based on the various dog breeds and related species (including a small sized one based on the fennec fox) The ones in Red Steel mostly came from a country with a mixture of Colonial France and Spain like culture. But I think the original write up in the adventure they appeared in had them more Native American and wolf-like. Paizo went is that it seems.

Yeah I think I remember reading that, I refer to Paizo more in the sense while they did not make the race in a direct sense, they were the ones who updated who statted the specific one seen in Dragon Compendium for D&D 3.5.

Also, a small version based on fennec foxes sounds interesting; be good to mix in Kitsune aspects with them maybe if I statted them.


Ah I see. (Also It looks like some mentioned it yesterday as well)
I definitely like the Wis and con bonuses, Cunning hunters that can out last their prey is definitely the right way to go for them. I also really like the domestic alternate traits. I can't really offer much else in useful critique since game balance has never been a strong point for me. I can give encouragement though.


Eviljames wrote:

Ah I see. (Also It looks like some mentioned it yesterday as well)

I definitely like the Wis and con bonuses, Cunning hunters that can out last their prey is definitely the right way to go for them. I also really like the domestic alternate traits. I can't really offer much else in useful critique since game balance has never been a strong point for me. I can give encouragement though.

Thank you, the friend mentioned the idea domestic stuff would reflect stray dogs that learned street smarts or breeds that were easy to train for like shows and such.


Rysky wrote:
Darbius Maximus wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Gnolls were also Monstrous humanoids in 3rd but Pathfinder changed them to Humanoid (Gnoll).
I see... that kinda messes with my brain in terms of getting into Paizo's brain but if all the bestial humanoids aren't Monstrous Humanoids I'll probably just make them being a Monstrous Humanoid an alternate trait.
Yeah, basically the designated Monstrous Humanoids as creatures with unique abilities rather than just bestial features, like Lamia and Medusa and Harpies.

That's a valid point. I'll make omstrous humanoid type an alternate trait.


In the interest of over complicating, I offer my game's solution.

Bestial Humanoid: A Bestial Humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a human-like torso, arms, and a head. Bestial Humanoids often have a few extraordinary abilities keyed to their 'source stock'. Most can speak and usually have societies, albeit primitive. They are usually Small or Medium. Every Bestial Humanoid also has a specific subtype to match its race, such as Riverkyn or Wulven. Bestial Humanoids are not subject to spells that affect Humanoids or Monstrous Humanoids. They are affected by spells that target either Animals or Magical Beasts. At this point, Bestial Humanoids include Beastmen, Gnolls, Riverkyn, Shifters, Ursine, Wulven


Bwang wrote:

In the interest of over complicating, I offer my game's solution.

Bestial Humanoid: A Bestial Humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a human-like torso, arms, and a head. Bestial Humanoids often have a few extraordinary abilities keyed to their 'source stock'. Most can speak and usually have societies, albeit primitive. They are usually Small or Medium. Every Bestial Humanoid also has a specific subtype to match its race, such as Riverkyn or Wulven. Bestial Humanoids are not subject to spells that affect Humanoids or Monstrous Humanoids. They are affected by spells that target either Animals or Magical Beasts. At this point, Bestial Humanoids include Beastmen, Gnolls, Riverkyn, Shifters, Ursine, Wulven

I'll make a subtext under my race's stats to include notes for campaigns using this sort of schtick

Liberty's Edge

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Well, as a Furry who's been wanting a Wolf PC race since getting into Pathfinder, I am DEFINITELY interested in this thread. I've already downloaded the file.


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Darbius Maximus wrote:

I'll make a subtext under my race's stats to include notes for campaigns using this sort of schtick

A very nice solution! I went this way due to the number of eligible races in campaign.

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