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I hope in the next two years we will see 3-5 new elements and expanded ability lists for every element.
Also by then I hope to see at least 12 class specific feats and 15+ class specific magic items.
I'm actually hoping for no new elements. Existing talents are spread thin enough across the existing 7 elements.
I would love to see the existing elements expanded with more talent selection though.
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I hope in the next two years we will see 3-5 new elements and expanded ability lists for every element.
Also by then I hope to see at least 12 class specific feats and 15+ class specific magic items.
I'm actually hoping for no new elements. Existing talents are spread thin enough across the existing 7 elements.
I would love to see the existing elements expanded with more talent selection though.
Agreed, I didn't even 100% agree with new elements in OO, so I would rather see more support for the current elements rather than more elements from 1p content,help turn wood and void into real elements instead of where they are now, which isn't a great place at all.
Also about the OP, I didn't say fire was the worst, although I would say it was the weakest of the core elements due to having an okay talent selection and the worst type of damage to deal.
It kind of feels like some elements are almost different archetypes with the massive shift in versatility, so I'm hoping the weaker elements (fire, void, wood) get some buffs to help push them into a more relevant section, as for the most point, these are the elements that I feel are best suited to being a secondary/tertiary element due to the lack of base utility.
It kind of feels like some elements are almost different archetypes with the massive shift in versatility, so I'm hoping the weaker elements (fire, void, wood) get some buffs to help push them into a more relevant section, as for the most point, these are the elements that I feel are best suited to being a secondary/tertiary element due to the lack of base utility.
I kinda disagree on a minor point. I'm not sure I am sold on fire yet, but it's clear fire is a big winner in terms of devastation as it does almost the damage from physical blasts to energy blasts. I think the play reports I have heard from pyrokineticists mean they certainly have their nitch they do very well at. More for every element would be nice, but I don't feel pyro are that much weaker. Certainly not on the level as wood.
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It kind of feels like some elements are almost different archetypes with the massive shift in versatility, so I'm hoping the weaker elements (fire, void, wood) get some buffs to help push them into a more relevant section, as for the most point, these are the elements that I feel are best suited to being a secondary/tertiary element due to the lack of base utility.I kinda disagree on a minor point. I'm not sure I am sold on fire yet, but it's clear fire is a big winner in terms of devastation as it does almost the damage from physical blasts to energy blasts. I think the play reports I have heard from pyrokineticists mean they certainly have their nitch they do very well at. More for every element would be nice, but I don't feel pyro are that much weaker. Certainly not on the level as wood.
That's why I said fire was 5th in my rankings, while wood was 8th (out of 7). Fire has the least utility, and really, that's what I look for in an element. Aether's utility is what boost it so high for me, although it has stiff competition from earth both doing amazing damage and having great utility. That and fire/wood/void/air having some seriously lackluster defenses doesn't help either.
Fire does have the best damage though, pretty handily so. If anything the problem is less that fire is bad and more that some of the elements are way too specialized.
And while fire is one of the worst damage types, cold isn't really any better and cold blasts have none of fire's amazing infusion support, so at the very least it has a leg up there.
That's why I said fire was 5th in my rankings, while wood was 8th (out of 7). Fire has the least utility, and really, that's what I look for in an element. Aether's utility is what boost it so high for me, although it has stiff competition from earth both doing amazing damage and having great utility. That and fire/wood/void/air having some seriously lackluster defenses doesn't help either.
Yea, I'm just pointing out that utility feels like very much a personal elemental choice over a design choice. For me, I think that I would like Fire to get a minor amount of utility, but to always be a lackluster choice for utility and stick to it's I burn theme.
For me, I think that I would like Fire to get a minor amount of utility, but to always be a lackluster choice for utility and stick to it's I burn theme.
Please be from the RWBY soundtrack, please be from the RWBY soundtrack....
Yahssss!!!
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If you can have 40+ sorcerer bloodlines, 50+ rogue talents/rage powers, 100+ domains/subdomains etc. I think there is room for more then 7 elements.
If you can have 40+ sorcerer bloodlines, 50+ rogue talents/rage powers, 100+ domains/subdomains etc. I think there is room for more then 7 elements.
Elements determine much more of what you get than bloodlines, mysteries, and domains. They also determine at least one choice you make every single level.
You forgot 4) Constitution based class; because there are defense nuts out there who love the sight of all those hit points, even with burn.I think the Kineticist struck a cord for players, because:
1) Many at-will abilities; the warlock pleased a lot of players with the Eldritch Blast class feature, which was an at-will ability. The Kineticist has similar abilities that grant at-will powers.2) Resemblances to characters with elemental powers; while the class is inspired by supernatural misfits in fiction, it resonates a lot with characters from anime, manga, comic books, video games and cartoons as well. If you're a fan of Avatar: The Last Airbender or Fairy Tail, you'll love playing as a Kineticist.
3) Lots and lots of options; so far, we have 7 elements to choose from, and 3rd-parties recently added more elements to the mix. The class on its own offers diversity and adaptability.
Huh... was there really a demand for Constitution-based classes? I always thought that even if Constitution wasn't used as a primary stat, it was still imperative to manage, because it governs hit points, Fortitude saves and other physical checks. Every class needs this.
Huh... was there really a demand for Constitution-based classes? I always thought that even if Constitution wasn't used as a primary stat, it was still imperative to manage, because it governs hit points, Fortitude saves and other physical checks. Every class needs this.You forgot 4) Constitution based class; because there are defense nuts out there who love the sight of all those hit points, even with burn.I think the Kineticist struck a cord for players, because:
1) Many at-will abilities; the warlock pleased a lot of players with the Eldritch Blast class feature, which was an at-will ability. The Kineticist has similar abilities that grant at-will powers.2) Resemblances to characters with elemental powers; while the class is inspired by supernatural misfits in fiction, it resonates a lot with characters from anime, manga, comic books, video games and cartoons as well. If you're a fan of Avatar: The Last Airbender or Fairy Tail, you'll love playing as a Kineticist.
3) Lots and lots of options; so far, we have 7 elements to choose from, and 3rd-parties recently added more elements to the mix. The class on its own offers diversity and adaptability.
Yeah every class needs it but there was no class that you can justify putting 18 con from level 1 (unless you had orc blood in you but I don't like playing an orc) and I really like seeing that HP number just skyrocket.
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If you can have 40+ sorcerer bloodlines, 50+ rogue talents/rage powers, 100+ domains/subdomains etc. I think there is room for more then 7 elements.Elements determine much more of what you get than bloodlines, mysteries, and domains. They also determine at least one choice you make every single level.
Totally agree. A new element, even one that gave 40 talents, would be very limiting. That room would be better served to give each element a 'second' thing to do, as right now most elements only have one 'thing' that they're capable of doing, and that's just not great. Trust me, I'd love to see more 1p elements, and I really think a lot of the ideas you post are very creative for new elements, but at the moment I'd like to see more focus on buffing our current elements.
I also agree that we need much more support on the existing elements before new elements. They're already reaching on the elemental nature with void. What's next? Light? Darkness? Crystal? Heart?
I agree with everyone about expanding the options for existing elements; what saddens me the most is that such additional options will a) be in yet a different sourcebook and b) likely be mixed in with other non-kineticist specific material, probably expanding on other classes' options too and therefore needing to be scrutinized more heavily by some home GMs before being allowed at a home table.
What I mean is that unlike in PFS where whatever you buy is a valid option, in home games you have to get GM approval to use source material. If he includes Ultimate Magic but no Ultimate Combat and you really wanted to play a Gunslinger, you're SOL but enjoy your consolation Magus?
I know Mark has lamented the print space restrictions he worked under, and as someone who has had to do layout before I totally get it. It's just a pity is all.
As an aside, is it just me or does the Kineticist seem to sort of stick out from the other classes introduced in OA as not being nearly as "occult" as the others? It could have been printed in UM, APG, possibly even the CRB though I think it's more complex than the core classes were from start.
As an aside, is it just me or does the Kineticist seem to sort of stick out from the other classes introduced in OA as not being nearly as "occult" as the others? It could have been printed in UM, APG, possibly even the CRB though I think it's more complex than the core classes were from start.
It doesn't fit with the flavor of the other classes from an occult standpoint. But it does from the "this class uses new funky rules" standpoint.
I think that without the kineticist, this book would have sold much fewer copies.
I agree with everyone about expanding the options for existing elements; what saddens me the most is that such additional options will a) be in yet a different sourcebook and b) likely be mixed in with other non-kineticist specific material, probably expanding on other classes' options too and therefore needing to be scrutinized more heavily by some home GMs before being allowed at a home table.
You do realize that home GMs can authorize some material without having to allow a whole book, don't you?
I agree with everyone about expanding the options for existing elements; what saddens me the most is that such additional options will a) be in yet a different sourcebook and b) likely be mixed in with other non-kineticist specific material, probably expanding on other classes' options too and therefore needing to be scrutinized more heavily by some home GMs before being allowed at a home table.You do realize that home GMs can authorize some material without having to allow a whole book, don't you?
Oh, absolutely, but it still becomes a talking point that increases the likelihood of exclusion. Put another way, generally speaking, when trying to determine what will be allowed in a homebrew game, my experience has been:
- The vast majority of CRB content is almost a guaranteed lock with a few notable exceptions like the Leadership feat- "Major" expansion books (e.g. Ultimate Magic, Occult Adventures) are the next step down and the likelihood drops the more recent the book
- Ancillary expansion material (e.g. Player Companion: Occult Origins) has an even more reduced chance of inclusion
- Material with limited scope tends to see a slight bump in the odds of inclusion, presumably due to needing to consider fewer options
Believe me, I understand that there are ways of managing what material gets included that I think make plenty of sense and I've argued them... I guess the problem is mostly one within the groups I've played in.
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I also agree that we need much more support on the existing elements before new elements. They're already reaching on the elemental nature with void. What's next? Light? Darkness? Crystal? Heart?
Heh heh, yeah...what kinda jerk would make a light element...ahem...
They combined shadow, negative energy, and gravity into the void element.
I would love elements like light, life, time, magic, thought/mind, soul, sound, metal, dream, etc.
Crystal based powers would be good for earth, along with sand based powers.
Heart could be part of life or mind/thought.
Of course, the aether element seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the ethereal plane thematically, so who knows? As I said, I'd much rather more support for existing elements than new elements anyways.
Aether is basically the ethereal plane rubbing up against "weird elemental stuff" on the material plane and making a baby. This also produced the first Wysps.
In a sense Void isn't really the negative energy plain. At least, it's not in most Pathfinder material. It's more of the outer reaches. The domain of the Outer Gods and Void Dragons. The stuff beyond. The stuff in the reaches of space.
It's cold outside.
There's no kinda atmosphere.
Of course, the aether element seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the ethereal plane thematically, so who knows? As I said, I'd much rather more support for existing elements than new elements anyways.Aether is basically the ethereal plane rubbing up against "weird elemental stuff" on the material plane and making a baby. This also produced the first Wysps.Yeah, I know the logic, I just think it's kind of a shame. I like telekinesis and all, but the flavor of the ethereal plane as "the seat of emotional forces, the mist-shrouded home of haunts and horror", with its nature being susceptible to thoughts and emotions, filled with twisted remnants of mortal souls, where your etheric double lies that is the source of your ki and where your chakras are...it's just a shame that aether hasn't got anything to do with all that.
It also bothers me a little that aether as a kineticist element doesn't really have anything to do with aether as a classical element, but eh. I do want telekinesis to exist still, mind you, I just wish it wasn't related to aether or the ethereal plane.
I mean, that does kinda have to do with the ethereal plane. It just isn't a true force of the ethereal plane.
An ethereal element might be possible, but much like if there was a magic element, would be based more in Paizo/Pathfinder lore and the weirdness of it.
I've only used the class at low level, and while the class was playable, it wasn't exciting.
The focus on a single element felt very narrow and being able to use only a single kinetic blast felt very restrictive.
I wonder if there's a 3rd party archetype that begins with 2 elements?
I also felt forced to play as a human, since we have a mostly ranged class without automatic access to Point Blank Shot and/or Precise Shot.
The lack of published material is problematic, but normal given how recent the class is.
Still, as it is currently, the class feels more challenging than enjoyable to me, like I had to carefully handle its features in order not to fall into some trap rather than embrace them.
I think things probably get better at higher level when we can get some versatility and we've begun to see our build take form, but I rarely feel it's worth waiting until level 7 or 8 before I have fun.
Still it's good to see some people had a better experience of the class than I did. I really want to love it, I keep coming back to it to try new things, but it might just be that it doesn't fit me.
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I wonder if there's a 3rd party archetype that begin with 2 elements?
There's two, although one's a bit more restrictive.
Kineticists of Porphyra 1 has the Elemental Avatar, which lets you start off with earth/fire/win/air all at once, but has a reduced talent acquisition rate and an alternative composite blast.
Kineticists of Porphyra 2 has the Fusion Kineticist, which allows you to take two elements at first level, but you don't gain any additional elements as you level, instead bringing your two base elements (sub and main) closer to harmony.
Although for fusion, I like taking brutal mutation from Kineticists of Porphyra 3, which does help the acquisition rate of talents for your sub element. You can check out my guide if you want more information on them, see if either of them fit what you're looking for in an archetype.
Thank you, N.Jolly!
Agreed. Giving a honest look at the kineticist, it stands at the same level as the ranger and the barbarian. A class that while underpowered, has comparable potential and won't get outshined outside of fullcaster shenanigans.
My main issue is that the class it outright unintuitive to play. Sure, there's plenty of blaster wizardry even when it'll be the least efficient way to play outside of very specific scenarios, but the other schools are given plenty of focus from the get go.
On the other hand, the Kineticist is built with the kinetic blast as its centerpiece, but it's a very underwhelming one. Outside of full nova, it cannot keep around with martials that can go all day with their DPR capacity (While some have limited uses, most of them will have mora than enough per day at mid levels). It's the talents instead that make the kineticist a thing.
I don't know that Kineticists can't keep up with martials, I think their damage output is comparable to a melee martial (though certainly not an archer). The bigger issue is that the class is just uninteresting. There are so few talents, and the vast majority of them are useless. Also, the power accumulation is so needlessly restrictive (Infusion at odd levels, utility at even). Infusions are downright awful for the most part as well, I can only think of a few that I would ever want or use. Players should just have a choice of one level-appropriate power every level.
The class suffers from over balancing, otherwise known as gimping. Instead of allowing the players to build their Kineticist the way they want, the class is basically a straitjacket that takes away nearly every meaningful choice and locks players into "approved" builds.
Lets add Elemental Ascetic(no ranged blast in exchange for a cruddy little extra damage, no Elemental Overflow size bonuses, and NO ELEMENTAL DEFENSE) and Elemental Annihilator(no way to deal actual elemental damage...) to the mix of bad archetypes.
However, even in games where the power level is high my Goblin Pyrokineticist was really holding his own, to the point the GM was saying Kineticist was overpowered. And if I fought something immune to fire damage? Well my Dex was high and I had Dervish Dance, so I ran up and cut it to pieces.
My level 5 Divine Conduit(3rd party archetype, got paladin-esque abilities) Pyrokineticist held his own and all but soloed a fight with two level 4 drow anitipaladins smiting him, an Advanced Satyr that made 3 out of 5 part members run panicked for 8 rounds(taking them out of the fight, because then it took 8 rounds for them to get back) and the Dire Bat the Satyr summoned. He nearly went unconscious, but he still did not retreat and kept fighting on to protect his companions and his kingdom.
Lets add Elemental Ascetic(no ranged blast in exchange for a cruddy little extra damage, no Elemental Overflow size bonuses, and NO ELEMENTAL DEFENSE) and Elemental Annihilator(no way to deal actual elemental damage...) to the mix of bad archetypes.
Elemental Ascetic is almost okay. Kinetic Fist isn't great, but getting it for free and flurry of blows isn't bad, that's enough to let you keep up with a monk in terms of damage for the most part.
I actually think the biggest problem with the Archetype is Powerful Fist. Spending one point of burn to add one extra damage on average to each attack ( two damage per attack at 11, three damage per attack at 17, better with composites) is pretty bad. Trading three infusions for that is absolutely awful.
No arguments on annihilator though. The biggest problem with that archetype is that it actually kind of struggles to out damage a regular kineticist for a frighteningly long time. Which is insane. You give up all of your utility for better damage and don't actually outdamage a kineticist until after level 7. You're literally better off ignoring the archetype's main class feature for half the game.
And while not a power issue, it really bothers me that the archetype billed as the damage dealing archetype doesn't function at all with the damage dealing element. A fire kineticist literally doesn't get anything out of the archetype until it can use composites.
Speaking of composites. I also think the archetype really should have gotten a discount on composite blasts with devastating infusion, since all they offer at that point is a change in damage type.
Also only getting conditional full BAB sucks, both for feat pre-reqs and, again, because early game when a regular blast does more damage the archetype is giving you very, very little for what you give up.
Now with the news of what the first two hardcover books will be next year, it looks like the kineticist will not get the love it needs anytime soon unless they release a completely kineticist focused players companion book.
It's funny, two character ideas I've always wanted to play are an elementalist, and a shapeshifter that can take humanoid/monstrous humanoid forms. However, after seeing the mess Paizo made with the Kineticist and the awful Metamorph Alchemist, I'm afraid to mention any other ideas I really like on these forums in case the developers decide to make horrible versions of those too.
Please do, because Kineticist and Metamorph are two of my favorite things to come out recently, along with Advanced Weapon Training.
Lol well ok Imbicatus, as a favor to you I'll mention some more ideas. One I've already mentioned in the Paizo Products forum that several people liked is a "Beast Monk", basically a monk that uses natural weapons instead of unarmed strikes, and has animal abilities (such as scent, and the other abilities on the Beast Shape spells) rather than mystical martial arts abilities.
Now with the news of what the first two hardcover books will be next year, it looks like the kineticist will not get the love it needs anytime soon unless they release a completely kineticist focused players companion book.
That's a shame. I like codexes as much as the next person, but I really wish we'd get more for this class. Hopefully horror adventures has some stuff in it for them, at least on the 1st party front :D
I am sure Horror Adventures will have something for Kineticist but how much is the real question.
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I am sure Horror Adventures will have something for Kineticist but how much is the real question.
I'm hoping they don't just steal the viscera element, although if any book was going to have it, it'd be that one. In the guide thread, it was talked about with Mark S. about doing spells in a way to make spells that would make good kin talents have that in their description, so that could be a roundabout way of getting new kineticist powers. They won't be the most unique, but anything is good when it comes to expanding the roster.
I can see horror themed abilities for each element.
You could have a curse infusion for water(cold) that eventually turns a person into solid ice.
A curse effect for fire that makes it very hard to quench the flames of a person you set on fire.
A earth utility that lets you effect a person's iron in there blood or calcium in there bones.
A earth infusion that turns people to stone.
A void utility to command undead at will.
A wood infusion that causes plants to sprout from a targets body.
An aether talent that lets you stop a persons heart.
An air utility that lets you use the electric current in a living(or robot) creatures body in messed up ways.