Suggested equipment buffs...


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

The Exchange

With all the people expressing the feeling that the new errata for Ultimate Equipment seemed to be overwhelmingly "Nerfs" with very few "Buffs", I got to wondering what items PFS players feel are very "underpowered" and in need of an errata "Buff".

So, what item do you think is the most in need of errata to improve it?

My personal favorite is from the Cheliax book

Abrogalian Corset:

(specific armor) Aura moderate enchantment; CL 9th
Slot armor; Price 17,175 gp; Weight 10 lbs. Description
Devised by Her Infernal Majestrix, Abrogail I, this +3 studded leather armor is lavishly adorned with a bound swarm of hellwasps. Once ranking among the most spectacular pieces of clothing in Cheliax, the discomfort caused by during the creation of this corset is as legendary as the protection it offers.
The wasps bound to the corset prevent the first 20 points of damage you take each day (resetting at midnight). Once the wasps have prevented 20 points of damage for the day, they angrily animate and swarm around you, and you must make a DC 18 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. A er 1 round of activity, the swarm then returns to the corset and goes dormant, and this ability to prevent damage does not function until it recovers at midnight.
The swarm cannot be targeted separately from the armor and cannot be killed unless the armor is destroyed (not just broken).
Construction: requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, lesser planar ally, summon swarm, caster level 9th; Cost 8,675 gp

Has anyone ever actually bought one of these?

Silver Crusade

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Unfortunately, well over 1/2 the items in the game fall into the "Too expensive for what you get" category. Listing them all seems like a fairly futile exercise.

My personal favourite item (which appears in just about every scenario) is magical studded lthr armour. Worse then mithril chain shirt in every respect.

The Exchange

Paul Jackson wrote:

Unfortunately, well over 1/2 the items in the game fall into the "Too expensive for what you get" category. Listing them all seems like a fairly futile exercise.

My personal favourite item (which appears in just about every scenario) is magical studded lthr armour. Worse then mithril chain shirt in every respect.

I actually don't recall seeing it... I have encountered masterwork leather armor though.

Mainly though, I'm wondering about what everyone thinks is the WORST. So... The one item that each person would single out. That should keep the list shorter...

Grand Lodge

nosig wrote:

With all the people expressing the feeling that the new errata for Ultimate Equipment seemed to be overwhelmingly "Nerfs" with very few "Buffs", I got to wondering what items PFS players feel are very "underpowered" and in need of an errata "Buff".

So, what item do you think is the most in need of errata to improve it?

My personal favorite is from the Cheliax book

** spoiler omitted **

Has anyone ever actually bought one of these?

Most of the named armors and weapons suffer from the same issue (though the Abrogalion Corset doesn't) in that they are named so you can't continue upgrading them, but are only +1. Very few are powerful enough (even in the correct circumstances) to make up for not being able to enchant further for the majority of builds. (There are a few exceptions but they are rather few and far between on either side) Most of my favorites come from Inner Sea Gods (though that book also has a number that will probably see errata at some point). There are plenty in there that are really cool and even give a nice 1/day ability, but what you give up doesn't seem worth it.

Take Deadeye Leather (Which seems to be intended for an archer but not necessarily required) For just under 5500, you get +1 shadow studded leather - on an archer probably 9 AC (4 armor, 5 max dex), no ACP, and you give up a full attack once a day (your schtick, by giving up a standard) to get one attack that ignores miss chance/cover/concealment. That attack can be part of your next full attack (as it reads) but it's only the first shot. It seems more worth while to just get a +1 mithril chainshirt for the 11 AC (5 Armor, 6 Max Dex) and add shadow if you really want it for just under 5k total, and you can keep upgrading it.

I think it's part of why we don't see as many buffs (another being it's easier to identify the OP items by what you see and hear about and the unintentional ways they're being used), how do you rebalance that item to make it competitive? In a homegame you could allow it to be upgraded, it's not a terrible option at the point you could afford it, it just loses value over time. Maybe custom itmes could have an effective enhancement bonus they are considered to be for adding enchantments after the fact, but that seems like a lot of work.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Maps Subscriber

This brings up the question... Why can't you upgrade named armor? What was the reasoning there?

Hmm

The Exchange

Hmm wrote:

This brings up the question... Why can't you upgrade named armor? What was the reasoning there?

Hmm

I think it is because of the price calculation. Many types of "named" items have special prices - but how do you calculate the cost of the upgrade?

Take the Abrogalian Corset above. If you want to upgrade it to +4... Is the additional abilities it has costed as a +4 already? So raising the enchancement bonus to +4 would cost what? 7k? (Difference between +3 and +4) or 9K? (The cost between +4 and +5)?

Grand Lodge

nosig wrote:
Hmm wrote:

This brings up the question... Why can't you upgrade named armor? What was the reasoning there?

Hmm

I think it is because of the price calculation. Many types of "named" items have special prices - but how do you calculate the cost of the upgrade?

Take the Abrogalian Corset above. If you want to upgrade it to +4... Is the additional abilities it has costed as a +4 already? So raising the enchancement bonus to +4 would cost what? 7k? (Difference between +3 and +4) or 9K? (The cost between +4 and +5)?

Exactly this. So many of the abilities don't have straight translations on what they would/should/could cost, that deciding what the next upgrade is becomes difficult. Does Celestial Armor's fly ability add a +1 to the cost, +2, nothing, etc.


I have one character who really wants folding plate (RP reasons)but 12650 gold for +1 full plate that can be donned on command seems a bit high to me. By my calculations it looks like they price out the folding property as higher than a +2 bonus.


Paul Jackson wrote:

Unfortunately, well over 1/2 the items in the game fall into the "Too expensive for what you get" category. Listing them all seems like a fairly futile exercise.

My personal favourite item (which appears in just about every scenario) is magical studded lthr armour. Worse then mithril chain shirt in every respect.

Honestly, 50% seems like a pretty conservative estimate.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

With any item that is too expensive, the simplest way to correct the item is to change the price. Most items don't need to change how they function, simply how much they cost. Balancing errata would ideally almost always happen on the price point.

If the Jingasa had gone up to 10-12K, how many people would actually just give it up? My guess is that at 10K, the vast majority that could would keep it and at 12K, people start changing their minds.

Check out the Unbowed armor enhancement from Armor Master's Handbook. I doubt I would consider taking it as a +1, but it's +5. I suspect it's really only useful for the BBEG.

I think a more interesting question is "What is the coolest Item you would never buy because of it's price, and at what price would you consider buying it?"

At what price would you buy the Abrogalian Corset?

The Exchange

Captain Tally-Ho! wrote:

With any item that is too expensive, the simplest way to correct the item is to change the price. Most items don't need to change how they function, simply how much they cost. Balancing errata would ideally almost always happen on the price point.

If the Jingasa had gone up to 10-12K, how many people would actually just give it up? My guess is that at 10K, the vast majority that could would keep it and at 12K, people start changing their minds.

Check out the Unbowed armor enhancement from Armor Master's Handbook. I doubt I would consider taking it as a +1, but it's +5. I suspect it's really only useful for the BBEG.

I think a more interesting question is "What is the coolest Item you would never buy because of it's price, and at what price would you consider buying it?"

At what price would you buy the Abrogalian Corset?

Let's see - it's +3 studded leather armor - so that would be a bit over 9K (9175?), then it sucks up the first 20 HP you take - then drops you and anyone next to you in a hellwasp swarm (3d6 damage, Poison (DC20?) and Distraction), as well as inflicting you personally with Nausea for the round (DC18 Fort). All that for a mear 8K gp. There is no way to reset the 20 HP thru the day, so if you take several small damages thru the day, I could see it kicking off from a goblin arrow that does 1 HP...

I only have one PC that would be remotely interested in it, and I can see her hitting herself with 20 HP every time she puts it on, just to burn off the Swarm (so that it doesn't pop up in the middle of a combat). She would want it for the Fashion Statement. I'm not actually sure I have any other PC you could pay to use it...


Captain Tally-Ho! wrote:
I think a more interesting question is "What is the coolest Item you would never buy because of it's price, and at what price would you consider buying it?"

There's a ring that helps you find the nearest pub. :-) I really just want an adventure to feature a non-fatal airship crash in a relatively sparsely populated place, and someone has one of those.

As for how much... let's see. Maybe four thousand? I can think of quite a few situations where locate person or locate object would be awesome, but I can't think of any that have come up in a PF game for me. Also, if I really wanted them I'd have them as scrolls. So it seems like the usual pricing structure will make them overpriced. Sense motive is often a useful skill, so paying for that seems fair, but knowledge local usually less so. And items usually charge 500/point for skills. So... yeah, 4000.

I'd also probably add a general game rule, that if there's a thing that gives (power) 1/day, you can't benefit from owning more than one.

Other than that, there are all the chaos/lawful themed items. I normally ignore them because usually buying anti-evil stuff is a better bet. But a chaos emerald is a cool thing, even if you never use it for anything, just because the lawful people don't like touching it.

Captain Tally-Ho! wrote:
At what price would you buy the Abrogalian Corset?

I think the corset is a bad example, because I wouldn't. Nauseated in the middle of a fight seems like a disadvantage to me. It would have to be cheaper than normal +3 studded leather before I cared.

Liberty's Edge

nosig wrote:
then drops you and anyone next to you in a hellwasp swarm (3d6 damage, Poison (DC20?) and Distraction), as well as inflicting you personally with Nausea for the round (DC18 Fort).

I did not read it that way, the only part of the drawback looked to me like the 1 round of (possible) nausea, to start the day with 20 temporary hit points, every day.

I can see where you get that. It says they animate and swarm around you, but it doesn't say where to look for hellwasp swarm stats, which is what I would have expected if they actually attack you.

I doubt I'd be interested at any price if it kicked your butt like that at the end of the 20hp.

Pretending it does only nauseate you, I'd think there would be a few low hp characters that would be pretty close to sold at a 25% discount.

The Exchange

Captain Tally-Ho! wrote:
nosig wrote:
then drops you and anyone next to you in a hellwasp swarm (3d6 damage, Poison (DC20?) and Distraction), as well as inflicting you personally with Nausea for the round (DC18 Fort).

I did not read it that way, the only part of the drawback looked to me like the 1 round of (possible) nausea, to start the day with 20 temporary hit points, every day.

I can see where you get that. It says they animate and swarm around you, but it doesn't say where to look for hellwasp swarm stats, which is what I would have expected if they actually attack you.

I doubt I'd be interested at any price if it kicked your butt like that at the end of the 20hp.

Pretending it does only nauseate you, I'd think there would be a few low hp characters that would be pretty close to sold at a 25% discount.

25% discount from what? The 17K it costs? (That would make it...ah... 13K?)

As for telling you where to find the creature stats? A Bag of Tricks doesn't tell you where to find them either...

Hellwasp swarm is in Beastiary III I beleave. Nasty creature...

But if an errata said something like "...wearing the corset renders you immune to attacks from Hellwasp swarms..." Or even "The wearer is immune to swarm attacks...".

No need to change the price, just errata what the item does - you know, buff it a little.

Sovereign Court

I think a lot of items need careful attention to what action (normally standard) is required to activate them. Many of them read as if the writer thought they could be activated and used in the same round.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Captain Tally-Ho! wrote:

If the Jingasa had gone up to 10-12K, how many people would actually just give it up? My guess is that at 10K, the vast majority that could would keep it and at 12K, people start changing their minds.

Increasing the cost would just shift the level when it is taken. Even at, say, 20k, there comes a point where it is cost effective just for the +1 (or +2 if fates favored) bonus to AC with the crit removal being a nice extra.

Silver Crusade

nosig wrote:


Let's see - it's +3 studded leather armor - so that would be a bit over 9K (9175?),

No. +3 studded leather COSTS 9k but it has less value than a +2 mithril chain shirt so it is WORTH less than 5K.

Which is why magical studded leather was my choice for "Completely useless magic".

Liberty's Edge

Paul Jackson wrote:
Captain Tally-Ho! wrote:

If the Jingasa had gone up to 10-12K, how many people would actually just give it up? My guess is that at 10K, the vast majority that could would keep it and at 12K, people start changing their minds.

Increasing the cost would just shift the level when it is taken. Even at, say, 20k, there comes a point where it is cost effective just for the +1 (or +2 if fates favored) bonus to AC with the crit removal being a nice extra.

I agree very much with this. It's also why I think so many things are overpriced. They're overpriced to make the point of entry higher. The unintended consequence is that the point of entry becomes never.

Sovereign Court

Yeah we all know the system is chok full of bad equipment, feats, traits, and other choices. It's called book padding. Gotta fill space. Publish or die.

Liberty's Edge

Where's the rule that denies player's the ability to continue enhancing specific magical arms and armor?

Shadow Lodge

'Ere you go

Liberty's Edge

Muser wrote:
'Ere you go

Thanks, I appreciate it. The bit about being able to upgrade to specific magic items is something I didn't expect. How odd.

Anyway, to answer OP, you could "buff" Goggles of Night by lowering the price. It's significantly overpriced, imo. Either lower the cost, or add some neat new ability like 1/day for 10 minutes See in Darkness.


How about the poor heavy mace? 50% more than a morning star, only one type of damage, and weighs more! Sure, I suppose if you are specialized in the hammers weapon group it may make sense, but otherwise?

Shadow Lodge

The big thing to take in about weapons is that, somehow, greatclub and handaxe are martial weapons. haha, what?


Muser wrote:
The big thing to take in about weapons is that, somehow, greatclub and handaxe are martial weapons. haha, what?

Trying to hit someone dead on with an ax so it doesn't twist out of your hands is a pain.

Weilding 8 pounds of tree trunk isn't easy either.

Shadow Lodge

But an 8 pound hunk of metal is? Face it, the weapon supercategories track power, not ease of use, realism, limits of expertise, etc.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Suggested equipment buffs... All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.