Ok, new to the boards, and I know this topic has been dealt with somewhere on the boards before, but how do you deal with a player that only wants to make his Char powerful. Literally, at every choice he goes for the most game breakingly powerful option.
Let me explain further, I am running the "Wrath" campaign, given it totally lends itself to muchkinism, and in my opinion, mythic is seriously broken. But we are on the last book and there is nothing left in the campaign that he has to roll more than a 2 on a d20 to hit, and almost nothing left can hit him without a natural 20. He uses a lance, and he isn't the only one, the paladin literally one shot Baphomet. How do you deal? At this point I am just telling a subpar story and they are auto-winning everything.
With the mythic rules you can only need to be competent to rule over the campaign. Making monsters mythical does not scale their difficulty enough to keep pace with the rules the players use.
I don't know how things are in your normal game, but for this one there is not much you can do except to advance the monsters beyond where they are officially.
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Pathfinder is not a balanced system, and this goes double for Mythic (or so I hear). There are options of equal resource cost that can vary in power from "near-meaningless" to "game-breaking". Gaps like that even exist in the Core Rulebook. You can't really blame someone for recognizing the difference and choosing accordingly. Heck, a game of Pathfinder can be broken accidentally, so accusing a player of doing something wrong because he chose powerful options isn't really fair.
So here's my advice:
First, talk to the player. If his motivation really is to break the game, boot him. If he's just innocently picking good options (which is a good thing, not a bad thing), tell him your concerns about the results and work together on some adjustments.
Second, consider whether switching systems or adopting some serious houserules might be a good idea for your next campaign if game-breaking character options are an issue for you.
One group I play with uses a heavily redacted form of Pathfinder: No magic mart, ability arrays not points buy, stat boosting items are rare, problem spells are heavily discouraged, power Attack doesn't improve for 2-handed weapons, no summonses, guns only ignore some armour etc. However this is by common consent after seeing these things break our campaigns. Another group i play with doesn't need these restrictions and plays by the book so to speak (granted they are newer players)
I think the first step is to have a discussion with the group as a whole - do you want to play in games where success on a 2+ is the order of the day? If you don't but the players do, maybe let one of them take a turn GMing. If the consensus of the group is that that isn't the right style then agree house rules in advance to help redress the balance.
All of the restrictions above came about through discussion with the group and are part of a campaign pitch that each GM makes in the form of a home-players guide issued before the campaign starts.
For the record, I'm totally with you in finding auto-success both dispiriting and frustrating. It means as a DM I have failed to set difficulty correctly. However some players make that harder than others. As a DM I don't think I should have to jump through hoops to make an encounter challenging. If you have specific problems the advice section often has solutions.
Another game system like 5th Ed might offer an alternative, though I do think pathfinder can be perfectly reasonable of the group agree to so show some self-restraint or accept a few limitations. While I have played and enjoyed 5th Ed, it isn't a replacement for pathfinder for me yet.
Vidman,
Pathfinder is, to me, meant to facilitate story telling. Your group and you are telling the story of some adventurers (their part) vs the big bad world. The part of the GM is not to 'be' the big bad world, only to describe it and adjudicate what happens when the party members interact with the world.
The GM - referee really - gets to decide what happens when the adventurers interact with the world. If they party is completely lopsided in power, as in 1 guy doesn't play well with the others, you need to do one of several things (not all described here) but in limited form: reduce their power, scale up the rest of the group, remove the player, and/or push down how well they do in their checks. Again these are not all of your options, and I'm not telling you what to do.
If the whole party is over powered vs the monsters, scale up the encounters. Add terrain features that make his default checks harder. Add environmental factors that make the same checks harder. Give the monsters similar mythic abilities that he has. Give the monsters the same advantages that the PCs have. Add PC levels to the monsters, sunder gear, target potions or scrolls, damage armor. Or other such possibilities.
You, the GM, are the game referee. If the playing teams - the players and the world - are not balanced at all, then you may as well just come to the game with pre-printed 'YOU WIN' stickers and hand them out and then go on to the next thing.
Pathfinder, and other RP systems, (Again -TO- -me-) are about telling a story. If the story is going to be 'You guys won through no challenge at all", people are going to have less enjoyment then they could have had.
In every case, Talk to your players, individually and as a group, about the auto-winning, and that you are going to take steps to present more of a challenge for them. Really, -For Them-, not for you.
TL;DR You can fix it, if you and the players want to fix it, and you are going to have to have them help or it isn't going to get better. -imho
Em Zee
Ok, new to the boards, and I know this topic has been dealt with somewhere on the boards before, but how do you deal with a player that only wants to make his Char powerful. Literally, at every choice he goes for the most game breakingly powerful option.
Let me explain further, I am running the "Wrath" campaign, given it totally lends itself to muchkinism, and in my opinion, mythic is seriously broken. But we are on the last book and there is nothing left in the campaign that he has to roll more than a 2 on a d20 to hit, and almost nothing left can hit him without a natural 20. He uses a lance, and he isn't the only one, the paladin literally one shot Baphomet. How do you deal? At this point I am just telling a subpar story and they are auto-winning everything.
Well, if it makes you feel beetter unless this isn't an isolated campaign...it's very possible he's doing this by accident.
Mythic is VERY easy to jack your numbers with. You're basically forced to either take something utterly useless, or crank the dial from 11 to 12 to 13 and so on at every tier.
Coupled with the fact that there are logs on this site of people utterly stomping Wrath of the Righteous without Mythic (denoting it's a really easy AP anyway), he might not be TRYING to disrupt the game here.
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Oh, by the way, just a side note: terms like "munchkinism" (along with "rollplayer") are pejoratives that violate the Community Guidelines for posting on these forums. The OP might not have known that, so just pointing it out.
Thank you all, excellent suggestions. I like what Em Zee said, "You can fix it, if you and your players want to fix it."
I have talked to them individually, and the paladin seems open to change, but the other player actually said, "It isn't fun for me unless I am playing the most powerful option." Absolute zero interest in 'fixing' anything.
I am going to try it one more night, tonight, buffing up the creatures they face. If that doesn't work, I am going to throw in the towel. It isn't worth it for them to just auto-win everything. I mean, it's a 'game' not just weak storytelling.
Thanks for your continued input!
Also, sorry, was not aware of the breach in the community guidlines, thank you jiggy for pointing that out!
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I have talked to them individually, and the paladin seems open to change, but the other player actually said, "It isn't fun for me unless I am playing the most powerful option." Absolute zero interest in 'fixing' anything.
It sounds like you and he have a fundamental difference in playstyle that no amount of rules-fixing will help. You will likely have to go separate ways.
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player actually said, "It isn't fun for me unless I am playing the most powerful option."
My recommendation here, then, would be to see if there's a way to make "the most powerful option" be something that's not horribly broken compared to the other options. Methods to achieve this include playing something besides Pathfinder, banning certain content, or powering-up the other PCs to narrow the gap.
Remember: the reason that deliberately choosing weaker options is no fun for this player is probably the same reason that "auto-win" is no fun for you: "it's a 'game' not just weak storytelling".
Thank you all, excellent suggestions. I like what Em Zee said, "You can fix it, if you and your players want to fix it."
I have talked to them individually, and the paladin seems open to change, but the other player actually said, "It isn't fun for me unless I am playing the most powerful option." Absolute zero interest in 'fixing' anything.
I am going to try it one more night, tonight, buffing up the creatures they face. If that doesn't work, I am going to throw in the towel. It isn't worth it for them to just auto-win everything. I mean, it's a 'game' not just weak storytelling.
Thanks for your continued input!
If the problem player won't change their mind and it is odds with the rest of the party then bump them from the group. The fact that you got all the way to book six suggests to me that you have GM qualities. The next GM will only have the same issue.
Altenatively, agree limitations and then he can concentrate on creating the most powerful option that is open to him.
Specifically Wrath of the Righteous is a broken campaign, if you are not capable of killing the published Baphomat in a single round then your martial characters have been taking feats like Skill Focus (appraisal) so in this particular case it may not be the player optimising too much.
I could not keep the written encounters in Wrath working and I am a better optimizer than my players for the final encounter I gave the boss 12,000 hp so the fight would actually take some effort
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Ok, new to the boards, and I know this topic has been dealt with somewhere on the boards before, but how do you deal with a player that only wants to make his Char powerful. Literally, at every choice he goes for the most game breakingly powerful option.
Let me explain further, I am running the "Wrath" campaign, given it totally lends itself to muchkinism, and in my opinion, mythic is seriously broken. But we are on the last book and there is nothing left in the campaign that he has to roll more than a 2 on a d20 to hit, and almost nothing left can hit him without a natural 20. He uses a lance, and he isn't the only one, the paladin literally one shot Baphomet. How do you deal? At this point I am just telling a subpar story and they are auto-winning everything.
Embrace your inner munchkin! Be a munchkin GM! See how they like it!
:P
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Thank you all, excellent suggestions. I like what Em Zee said, "You can fix it, if you and your players want to fix it."
I have talked to them individually, and the paladin seems open to change, but the other player actually said, "It isn't fun for me unless I am playing the most powerful option." Absolute zero interest in 'fixing' anything.
I am going to try it one more night, tonight, buffing up the creatures they face. If that doesn't work, I am going to throw in the towel. It isn't worth it for them to just auto-win everything. I mean, it's a 'game' not just weak storytelling.
Thanks for your continued input!
Here's a thought: the game is for everyone to have fun. Are the players having fun beating the pants off everything they meet?
If the answer is Yes, then why kill the game? They're not there for the storytelling.
Now if this is making you miserable, then you need to talk it over with your players. You should be having fun, too. But don't kill the game because you think the game should be about storytelling, when your players are just fine with it being about their characters becoming demigods.
Kick them out of the game usually works, but there is an element of motivation there too. Is the guy trying to break the game intentionally and prove he is better than the dm, or does he enjoy being the strongest person for miles around in the game world itself? The latter can be worked with in game, the former usually cannot.
Some people like Dark Souls, some people like Dynasty Warriors, and some people like Jane Austen. None of these is wrong, or better.
When a group likes, or can tolerate, the same things it works out well, when they can't there's going to be friction. Either find middle ground or find new players.
Munchkins can add a lot to a game as long as you do two things. First be upfront with your munchkin and second restrict him. Many munchkins find great enjoyment NOT in the game itself so much as being able to take a theorycraft build and see it slaughter its enemies at the table. So a HUGE portion of their enjoyment is had before the game even starts, during character creation. As long as your munchkin and you are on the same page the game will run smoothly.
First, remind your munchkin that everyone at the table wants to have fun in their own way and that the restrictions are in place to keep him from VASTLY overpowering the others.
But within the restrictions you should give him TOTAL leeway to create as big a monster as he can. Present it as a challenge; "Can you slaughter all who dare face you with one hand tied behind your back?" smile at him "Are you THAT good?"
That is how you handle munchkins.
Ok, new to the boards, and I know this topic has been dealt with somewhere on the boards before, but how do you deal with a player that only wants to make his Char powerful. Literally, at every choice he goes for the most game breakingly powerful option.
Let me explain further, I am running the "Wrath" campaign, given it totally lends itself to muchkinism, and in my opinion, mythic is seriously broken. But we are on the last book and there is nothing left in the campaign that he has to roll more than a 2 on a d20 to hit, and almost nothing left can hit him without a natural 20. He uses a lance, and he isn't the only one, the paladin literally one shot Baphomet. How do you deal? At this point I am just telling a subpar story and they are auto-winning everything.
Quite frankly the problem seems to be that the players don't want to play the game you want to run. There's also the real issue that Wrath simply wasn't built to challenge players with system mastery without heavy modification by the GM.
Mythic is a landmine of disasters with a group like yours. I would strongly put out the notion that mythic is something you should write off in your current situation.
My group used mythic has a vacation from optimization and used it to try out concepts that simply would not be viable in standard play. Even they however, were rolling over things by the end of the book... the problem pretty much is in the AP itself, AND mythic mechanics in general.
For now, I would simply grit your teeth and bear it... and just ride out the end of the Wrath AP. And seriously have a one to one with your group and see if you can resolve the dissonance between you and your players.
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Smurfs always trump munchkins.
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I can't speak to Wrath, as I have never run it, but the desire to have the most powerful character possible is something you will encounter frequently in the PF player community.
Your best bet is to try talking to the player and explaining your expectations. If the player can't or won't reign it in, then you should part ways.
If that is also not an option, then my condolences. As a last ditch effort, I would have the enemies team up against the PC of that player. If his character is incredibly powerful, then surely others are taking notice (especially with all the different sorts of magic out there that provides information.)
I had fun with WotR and was fortunate enough to be in a campaign with Mythic (albeit hidden ^_^) progression. I went from what the group viewed as a quirky healbot to a bad-touch PC. The DM rewarded what he felt was excellent play and had a playstyle that kept dropping boons on the party where he felt certain characters were being left behind... I simply took the gift and repurposed it to what I needed it to be to excel.
Relating to the topic, I was and probably still am this type of Player you are having issues with. I've been kicked from a group for it; they went their way and I found fellow munchkins: do what's good for your group. Sometimes you can't resolve a stylistic difference.
If you are adhering to the AP, you are doing fine; there are points in those APs that accidentally can wipe a party that the developers may not have intended.
Case in point for Hell's Rebels, perusing it as a DM, I think around Book 3/4 I wondered how a party without some serious crowd control/isolation tactics (either Batman Wizard, intel to make the CIA jealous, or just sheer metagaming) can possibly storm a certain location without me as a DM bringing down every encounter in rapid succession in that building looking at its layout and roster.
On the other hand, I've seen it posted around in forums that the APs in general were meant to be beaten fairly and steadily by a four-PC team that had a rudimentary understanding of the rules on as low as 15pt buy without optimization. IE, a caster would have enough of a score to qualify for spells as they grow as a melee would have enough of an ability to qualify eventually for their feat progression without min-maxing. Not to knock their skills -Paizo probably wants flavor to win too, so Players who rock odd concepts like Dwarven Sorcerer ("I cast Bleed!" *somatic component involves cleaving greataxe to prone opponent) don't lose a game that doesn't have a solid win condition except "are we having fun?" simply because they didn't optimize.
WotR was the debut AP for Mythic, and the developers may not have balanced it fully: to date I think only RotRL comes to its equivalent power level (sans Mythic). You can hit L20 well prior to the final chain of events. With this Munchkin, when did you lose control of the campaign? As soon as Book 2?
As someone playing in a Mythic campaign with fairly powerful characters, there's nothing wrong with balancing things out by improving monsters and its always easier to scale monsters up than down.
In fact, having a powerful party in an AP can be an absolute blessing, it lets you get creative when you're expanding on monsters.
They can take a Minotaur Antipaladin easily enough. What about a Limbjacked Minotaur Antipaladin who has foul limbs made of abyssal metals forged from the souls of the lost.
What if he's wielding Path of war style maneuvers taught to him by the voices in his head?
What's more terrifying than the Succubus Lord/ Throw the Suzerian template on her.
The solution to things being overpowered in core isn't to take nice things away I find, its to add more nice things and then remember that the other side can use them as well. Things are never going to be on an entirely even keel so you might as well tune things up rather than down.
It seems like you have some questions that need answering. First, what is at stake here? Is the player negatively impacting the experience of the other players? Is the problem going to involve future campaigns (as in, is he staying around?) How attached is everybody to him?
Second, how much is the campaign worth continuing to you. Is it it worth going all the way through to the last battle in the next and final volume for it? Would cutting out some of the said volume be feasible?
Running a mythic campaign is not for the feint of heart. I keep everything in line by using the fantastic supplements produced by Legendary Games for mythic games. Nothing needs to be done to keep munchkins in line - as long as what they do is legal in the game. I allow mythic, leadership, companions, scaling weapons, and crafting. Weak GMs need not apply. Of course, having Hero Lab to audit all builds helps a lot.