What items exactly are we talking about?
Are we happy about the changes because they weren't balanced? Are we unhappy because they were?
I don't even know why this thread exists......
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I think there is a difference between unbalanced and gamebreaking.
Yeah those featherstep slippers were priced way below their value, but the tremor boots have been errata'd into "not worth buying at all".
The Falcon bracers(forgot the real name) could also have been adjusted better than they were as well as some other items.
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Wow, now we're getting from half a dozen overpowered items that were nerfed to abandoning the OGL and throwing all the established IP out of the window?.None of that is required for a new edition, unless your definition of the word is different than mine.
I know, but there was one poster calling for such measures.
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Playtesting is really cheap if you get volunteers to do it for almost-free (not quite free, you lose the opportunity to sell the material to the playtesters).
Besides, Paizo staff "playtests" like my grandmother drives to church.
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You still need to pay staff to synthesize the play-test responses into actual rules text.
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I think the problem with the current cycle is that it has let Paizo get complacent, partially the fault of subscribers and in general people in the community who shame people for not buying every product and snatch up each new book that comes out.
Someone had the right of it up-thread: Paizo is a business. Businesses are there to make money.
And this business has learned over the past few years that the cycle of:
1.) Release a rushed, incomplete book in time for Gencon.
2.) Wait a few years for everyone to get used to the status quo.
3.) Errata all the good stuff out, barely fix anything that actually needs fixing.
Makes them more money. Because people snap up the first printings, and then they snap up the second printings just as easily, regardless of the actual quality of either release. And also gets the suckers who never bought the book to try and get a copy of the first printing so they can use the original content. It's a three for one!
Anybody that is tired of this system needs to vote with their wallets, because it's not changing any time soon for any other reason than it's not netting them 2+ times the profit.
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This stuff IS playtested. It has been in the public domain for several years, and is discussed ad nauseum on these boards.
After all if a minor, culturally flavorsome piece of equipment like the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier is on every single characters equipment list then it is clearly too powerful and needs changing.
Let's not pretend we haven't been discussing this for a long time though. I havent been able to download the doc yet, can anyone tell me if the Quick draw shield has been clarified?
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The recent Ultimate equipment errata made me sad.
....recent?
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gg --> Last updated: October 23, 2015.
Am....am I missing something?
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I wish I knew how to linkify things...
http://paizo.com/products/btpy8tmc
After the bullet point section below Errata there's a link to download it.
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something something nostalrius
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The recent Ultimate equipment errata made me sad.....recent?
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gg --> Last updated: October 23, 2015.
Am....am I missing something?
New Errata yesterday Link
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After all if a minor, culturally flavorsome piece of equipment like the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier is on every single characters equipment list then it is clearly too powerful and needs changing.
One could say the same for Cloaks of Resistance, Rings of Protection, stat boosting items, Amulets of Natural Armor, and magic weapons.
Let's nerf them into uselessness too.
1/day crit negation was hardly gamebreaking. Perhaps a little under-priced with the +1 Luck to AC as well, but that was something easily fixable, by I don't know...maybe increasing the price.
Maybe it's a little fresh on my brain because that's the only reason my Skull and Shackles party only lost two members to cyclopes instead of the whole party recently, but this item seemed to help the game more than it hurt from my perspective.
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Thanks to all for the link!
How did people know about it other then opening each product page? I checked the blogs and no indication.
If you don't see the errata as a Pathfinder 2.0 or 2.12354, I don't know what to tell you.
So you change the name of Theseus' ship every time they scrub the deck a bit?
Thanks to all for the link!
How did people know about it other then opening each product page? I checked the blogs and no indication.
PFS had a post calling it to attention
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also instead of the terrible way it is being done now via buried announcements and strange downloads that are poorly organized and displayed
it is probably time to take a look at how groups like Rito and Blizz do their patch notes and community interactions and seek to emulate those
welcome to the clown fiesta paizo
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If you don't see the errata as a Pathfinder 2.0 or 2.12354, I don't know what to tell you.So you change the name of Theseus' ship every time they scrub the deck a bit?
Seems more like replacing planks on the deck than a little cleaning. Cleaning would just be actually fixing the grammatical errors that still run rampant in a lot of errata'd books.
Maybe not enough for a name change each time, but after a while it's just a different ship with the same name.
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I think the soft edition changes like unchained strike a good balance between stagnation and cutting yourself off from the players. You don't do pathfinder 2.0 and require new rules with a new rogue, you just offer another option (that's so much better everyone is going to take it)
Thanks to all for the link!
How did people know about it other then opening each product page? I checked the blogs and no indication.
I got an email:
We have updated the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Equipment (OGL) PDF to reflect the changes made for the second printing of the hardcover edition. You may download a full listing of the changes by downloading the Errata document from the product page.
If you wish to download the updated version, you may do so for free at http://paizo.com/paizo/account/assets.
You have received this email because your paizo.com account settings allow sending you notifications about updates to your digital assets.
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Playtesting is really cheap if you get volunteers to do it for almost-free (not quite free, you lose the opportunity to sell the material to the playtesters).
Remember - Pathfinder isn't a truly competitive game, so they need to playtest for a variety of play-styles. The sort of gamers who would volunteer to playtest are hardly representational of Paizo's entire market, so anything they say needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
Not that it wouldn't still be somewhat useful. Frankly, there have been some things which later get nerfed which I didn't need to playtest to know that they were OP. I just had to skim them. (I'm looking at you Divine Protection.)
You don't get three eyed ravens from paizo?
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Well you could buy an actual book, or PDF. Rulebook PDFs are cheap. If you rely exclusively on the PFSRD (which isn't even Paizo's site!), Paizo don't own you anything. If you don't want to pay, you can't expect to be allowed to make demands.
You realize there are people who focus their spending on Adventure Paths, Modules, and non-PRD splatbooks (Since these things are notfreely provided on the Paizo PRD). These people still have a financial investment in Pathifnder, and it is perfectly reasonable that they feel their voice should be heard as well.
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If you don't see the errata as a Pathfinder 2.0 or 2.12354, I don't know what to tell you.
Pathfinder v1.83452.
I'm certainly advocating an actual 2.0 because I think Pathfinder has fundamental flaws associated with the 3.5 backwards compatibility that rocketed the system to initial success. I think the framework of Pathfinder is fundamentally broken, plagued with inconsistent and unclear writing, significant imbalances, and references to rules that simply don't exist.
Why is it that Mark Seifter had to start a thread for a FAQ request about a CRB mechanic (positive and negative energy)? Not only that, but the longer that discussion goes on, the more convoluted the answer seems to get.
Why, after roughly 7 years, are there no official rules for Burrow speed, which has appeared in monster entries since Bestiary 1 in Pathfinder, numerous adventures prior to Pathfinder's release, and even 3.5 itself?
Why is it that the rules don't clearly identify a timeline of actions so we know when Immediate Actions can occur?
While these examples are easily capable of being errata'd, there are several other items that can't be as easily changed. CRB spells, for example, being far-and-away better than most subsequent releases is not a thing you can easily fix. The heavy reliance on "the big 6" in itemization speaks to TERRIBLE item design, but the rest of the system is built on the assumption of those items existing.
Wrecking a few powerful magic items in Ultimate Equipment is small potatoes compared to the myriad problems of the CRB, which impacts every design decision down the road. I certainly can't blame 2008-2009 Paizo for the issues that are happening now - they put out a product that the market wanted. I can, however, reasonably ask why we're still working with design elements that we've known have been flawed for the better part of 15 years.
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If you don't see the errata as a Pathfinder 2.0 or 2.12354, I don't know what to tell you.Pathfinder v1.83452.
I'm certainly advocating an actual 2.0 because I think Pathfinder has fundamental flaws associated with the 3.5 backwards compatibility that rocketed the system to initial success. I think the framework of Pathfinder is fundamentally broken, plagued with inconsistent and unclear writing, significant imbalances, and references to rules that simply don't exist.
Why is it that Mark Seifter had to start a thread for a FAQ request about a CRB mechanic (positive and negative energy)? Not only that, but the longer that discussion goes on, the more convoluted the answer seems to get.
Why, after roughly 7 years, are there no official rules for Burrow speed, which has appeared in monster entries since Bestiary 1 in Pathfinder, numerous adventures prior to Pathfinder's release, and even 3.5 itself?
Why is it that the rules don't clearly identify a timeline of actions so we know when Immediate Actions can occur?
While these examples are easily capable of being errata'd, there are several other items that can't be as easily changed. CRB spells, for example, being far-and-away better than most subsequent releases is not a thing you can easily fix. The heavy reliance on "the big 6" in itemization speaks to TERRIBLE item design, but the rest of the system is built on the assumption of those items existing.
Wrecking a few powerful magic items in Ultimate Equipment is small potatoes compared to the myriad problems of the CRB, which impacts every design decision down the road. I certainly can't blame 2008-2009 Paizo for the issues that are happening now - they put out a product that the market wanted. I can, however, reasonably ask why we're still working with design elements that we've known have been flawed...
I'd much rather see more releases like Unchained that rework core parts of the game than a clean break in the ruleset. For example, that big 6 issue you mentioned is addressed in Unchained with the Automatic Bonus Progression rule; if you use that rule then you treat the big 6 items as not existing at all and it frees up the slots for more interesting/situational items.
@Skizzerz ...Er... Because negative and positive energy have gotten along ok for 20 odd years without requiring a 2 page dissertation; only 1 in a 100 creatures actually burrow; and immediate actions can be adjudicated on a case by case basis.
These are not good reasons for a new edition. They're something that gets cleared up as a byproduct of a new edition.
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Thanks to all for the link!
How did people know about it other then opening each product page? I checked the blogs and no indication.
I got an email:
We have updated the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Equipment (OGL) PDF to reflect the changes made for the second printing of the hardcover edition. You may download a full listing of the changes by downloading the Errata document from the product page.
If you wish to download the updated version, you may do so for free at http://paizo.com/paizo/account/assets.
You have received this email because your paizo.com account settings allow sending you notifications about updates to your digital assets.
Ahhhhh.....Ok! Thanks!
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Well you could buy an actual book, or PDF. Rulebook PDFs are cheap.Why is this particular piece of misinformation so persistent?!? Go ahead, tell me where I can buy a PDF of the original, unbastardized Ultimate Equipment. You can't. Paizo refuses to sell it. Like George Lucas before them, Paizo only sells the "Special Edition" PDFs, and goes out of their way to make it difficult to find out what was in the earlier editions.Why the hell would any company keep selling versions of books that they'd corrected errors in? (Other than getting rid of old inventory, obviously, but Paizo doesn't make the corrections until after that.
Do software companies keep selling old versions of software after they've released new versions with bugfixes?"Here's the edition with all the original typos and bugs intact!"
I believe Zaister's intent there was that you could buy them first, rather than relying on the pfsrd as it appeared the OP was. Once you have them, Paizo doesn't change your copies.
I get you don't like some of the fixes. Sorry. Paizo's selling the latest version of their game. Not all the previous ones. That's standard practice. What you're looking for is vanishingly rare, in RPGs or in any kind of publishing industry.
...What? If I buy a game, particularly a hard-copy disk, I get the original, un-patched version. If I download any of said patches, I can also delete them to return to a ground state.
Games that you CAN'T do this with are vanishingly rare, and largely limited to MMOs and other online/multiplayer only games.
Likewise, if my new drivers don't work, I can roll back to the old one. If the new Windows update borks something major, I can roll back to the old one.
Programs you can't do this with are nigh unheard of.
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...If you don't see the errata as a Pathfinder 2.0 or 2.12354, I don't know what to tell you.Pathfinder v1.83452.
I'm certainly advocating an actual 2.0 because I think Pathfinder has fundamental flaws associated with the 3.5 backwards compatibility that rocketed the system to initial success. I think the framework of Pathfinder is fundamentally broken, plagued with inconsistent and unclear writing, significant imbalances, and references to rules that simply don't exist.
Why is it that Mark Seifter had to start a thread for a FAQ request about a CRB mechanic (positive and negative energy)? Not only that, but the longer that discussion goes on, the more convoluted the answer seems to get.
Why, after roughly 7 years, are there no official rules for Burrow speed, which has appeared in monster entries since Bestiary 1 in Pathfinder, numerous adventures prior to Pathfinder's release, and even 3.5 itself?
Why is it that the rules don't clearly identify a timeline of actions so we know when Immediate Actions can occur?
While these examples are easily capable of being errata'd, there are several other items that can't be as easily changed. CRB spells, for example, being far-and-away better than most subsequent releases is not a thing you can easily fix. The heavy reliance on "the big 6" in itemization speaks to TERRIBLE item design, but the rest of the system is built on the assumption of those items existing.
Wrecking a few powerful magic items in Ultimate Equipment is small potatoes compared to the myriad problems of the CRB, which impacts every design decision down the road. I certainly can't blame 2008-2009 Paizo for the issues that are happening now - they put out a product that the market wanted. I can, however, reasonably ask why we're still working with design elements that
There's also rules to incorporate them into preexisting items, so players don't lose those valuable item slots, but still aren't granted an 'awesomeness bonus' just for leveling up.
Seriously Unchained fixes most of the problems that this thread's tangential rants have come from.
I'm still not sure what the actual item's the OP is posting about having changed, and how they are problems. Maybe it's the fact that any changes happened at all?
Certainly, Paizo pays attention to what the fan base says, and 'play testing' happens both in house before the product is released, and out of house when they get feedback from us after we have the product. The results end up being that the things that they notice get fixed in the next printing of the book(s).
We are insatiable as a collective, since we seem to all want different things, finding a good middle ground has lead to Paizo's success thus far, and demanding they change their entire business model to accommodate one little thing isn't going to get results.
This thread is getting toxic.
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There's also rules to incorporate them into preexisting items, so players don't lose those valuable item slots, but still aren't granted an 'awesomeness bonus' just for leveling up.
Seriously Unchained fixes most of the problems that this thread's tangential rants have come from.
Most of the fundamental problems in Pathfinder exist outside of the Unchained fixes. While some examples have been, it's absolutely striking that none of the fixes are legal in the organized play setting.
I'm still not sure what the actual item's the OP is posting about having changed, and how they are problems. Maybe it's the fact that any changes happened at all?
Go download the errata from the Ultimate Equipment product page and read it, then. Look at the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, Featherstep Slippers, Staff of the Master, and numerous other items that have received nearly complete rewrites. Note that some of these items went from being unique and powerful to nearly purposeless.
Certainly, Paizo pays attention to what the fan base says, and 'play testing' happens both in house before the product is released, and out of house when they get feedback from us after we have the product. The results end up being that the things that they notice get fixed in the next printing of the book(s).
It is not feasible to adequately playtest every new rules element before release based on the release schedule. It's no longer a playtest once it's released.
We are insatiable as a collective, since we seem to all want different things, finding a good middle ground has lead to Paizo's success thus far, and demanding they change their entire business model to accommodate one little thing isn't going to get results.
It is reasonable to express discontent so that Paizo can make an independent determination of a course of action. I'm not demanding anything, but I am expressing my opinion and suggesting a path that would continue to keep my wallet open to them. It may be the case that others agree with me. It may not be. I'd rather see substantive rebuttals to my comments instead of statements like...
This thread is getting toxic.
I may be pretty incensed about the topic, but I'm willing to engage in conversation about it. Claiming toxicity is merely an attempt to silence a discussion.
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Most of the fundamental problems in Pathfinder exist outside of the Unchained fixes. While some examples have been, it's absolutely striking that none of the fixes are legal in the organized play setting.
Kind of hard to fix a car while its running. If you don't need to buy the big six then characters are suddenly VASTLY overpaid. You'd need to convert everyone's wealth over to the new system.
The summoner and rogue fixes were implemented in PFS because they could be fairly easily.
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Most of the fundamental problems in Pathfinder exist outside of the Unchained fixes. While some examples have been, it's absolutely striking that none of the fixes are legal in the organized play setting.Kind of hard to fix a car while its running. If you don't need to buy the big six then characters are suddenly VASTLY overpaid. You'd need to convert everyone's wealth over to the new system.
The summoner and rogue fixes were implemented in PFS because they could be fairly easily.
And technically the Urogue is optional (though the last time I saw I core rogue I recommended that he upgrade ASAP), likely because it's part of the core rules and they don't want to force the change on newbies with only the core rulebook.
Though - I think that was sort of Serisan's point and the reason why he is for the idea of Pathfinder 2.0. (I'm on the fence myself.)
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Most of the fundamental problems in Pathfinder exist outside of the Unchained fixes. While some examples have been, it's absolutely striking that none of the fixes are legal in the organized play setting.Kind of hard to fix a car while its running. If you don't need to buy the big six then characters are suddenly VASTLY overpaid. You'd need to convert everyone's wealth over to the new system.
The summoner and rogue fixes were implemented in PFS because they could be fairly easily.
I agree with that sentiment. My point, though, is that the claim that Unchained fixes the problems of the system doesn't hold water if the official campaign itself doesn't use them. A lot of people play in PFS and it's uncommon for those folks to start using an optional subsystem outside of their PFS play if they could get confused between the environments.
I'm glad for all those people with home games who can use these fixes. That's great. I'd love to see how Stamina plays out, for example, especially since it's been a well-supported subsystem since Unchained was released. I'd love to see automatic bonus progression, fractional BAB, etc. as well. I understand fully why it is difficult to insert those into the organized play campaign and it's certainly not feasible to splinter the OPC to allow them.
If these are the fixes, though, then they need to be Core.
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Most of the fundamental problems in Pathfinder exist outside of the Unchained fixes. While some examples have been, it's absolutely striking that none of the fixes are legal in the organized play setting.Kind of hard to fix a car while its running. If you don't need to buy the big six then characters are suddenly VASTLY overpaid. You'd need to convert everyone's wealth over to the new system.
The summoner and rogue fixes were implemented in PFS because they could be fairly easily.
Also, they've got 8 years of scenarios that would have to be redone to take out the big 6 and halve the wealth. And rewrite the NPCs using the system. I'm using ABP in Hell's Rebels, and this conversion isn't onerous for small bits at a time. But to do 200 scenarios all at once would be terrible.
It's too bad, because my players and I are loving ABP.
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For one, the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier is now a Deflection bonus, and the crit negation only ever happens once. That's a pretty nasty change.
...What? If I buy a game, particularly a hard-copy disk, I get the original, un-patched version. If I download any of said patches, I can also delete them to return to a ground state.Games that you CAN'T do this with are vanishingly rare, and largely limited to MMOs and other online/multiplayer only games.
Likewise, if my new drivers don't work, I can roll back to the old one. If the new Windows update borks something major, I can roll back to the old one.
Programs you can't do this with are nigh unheard of.
You don't if the copy you bought is not the first manufacture run and they've applied fixes in the meantime. And that's basically what Paizo is doing with the PDFs they sell - they update them with fixes. If you bought after the fixes were applied, you're not going to have access to the unfixed version (or first printing if stocks were out and you bought the second printing, etc, etc).
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More summarized changes.
Quickrunner's Shirt requires 24 hours to attune to(reasonable), and ends your turn immediately after you get your move action (not so reasonable).
Goblin Fire Drums only provide +1 damage for normal/+2 for greater (not per dice, just +1/+2 damage).
Gloves of Reconnaissance require 24 hours attunement, and only activate once per day for up to a minute. So much for a really fun item.
Bracers of Falcon's Aim is now activated, and only works 1/day for 1 minute. It's worse than a wand for 5 times as much.
Cap of the free thinker only gives 1 reroll on will saves/day.
Feather Step Slippers are activated (hence take a std action, btw), and work 1/day for 10 minutes.
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The gloves were not a fun item. They were letting you know what was in every single room of the dungeon. (and they're in entirely the wrong slot. You see with your eyes, not your hands)
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...What? If I buy a game, particularly a hard-copy disk, I get the original, un-patched version. If I download any of said patches, I can also delete them to return to a ground state.Games that you CAN'T do this with are vanishingly rare, and largely limited to MMOs and other online/multiplayer only games.
Likewise, if my new drivers don't work, I can roll back to the old one. If the new Windows update borks something major, I can roll back to the old one.
Programs you can't do this with are nigh unheard of.
You don't if the copy you bought is not the first manufacture run and they've applied fixes in the meantime. And that's basically what Paizo is doing with the PDFs they sell - they update them with fixes. If you bought after the fixes were applied, you're not going to have access to the unfixed version (or first printing if stocks were out and you bought the second printing, etc, etc).
I haven't run into this issue with any regularity since several console generations ago.
With the advent of online patches in the last console generation, with the exception of bundled "game of the year" editions and the like (and rare exceptions like some of the Dragonball games having music removed for copyright reasons) games come in a fully unpatched state regardless of which run you get of them, and then you need to update once you get online. If I went out and bought a new copy of Skyrim for the 360 (not the Legendary Edition, which is sold as a different game), it would be version 1.0, not 1.9.x.
Likewise my current up to date Steam copy of Skyrim can be rolled back to vanilla or (admittedly with some effort) any other specific patch.
The main exception, again, being MMOs and other games with DRM that require an up to date game to be played at all.
The gloves were not a fun item. They were letting you know what was in every single room of the dungeon. (and they're in entirely the wrong slot. You're seeing things with gloves?)
There are only 10 rooms in your dungeons, and everything is visible from the door?
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I remember all of those items being complained about for causing problems. If an item is so good that everyone buys it, then it's probably a problem.
The Jingasa was bought by anyone, and even more so by anyone with Fates Favored.
Quickrunner Shirt enabled pounce earlier than the game intended, so now it only enables escape, not a big loss imo.
Those Bracers were the most broken item ever and didn't follow the general rule of pricing based on bonus, not by spell level. Wands require UMD or a CL with it on your spell list. Bracers can be used by anyone.
Honestly, most of these seem more reasonable than people are saying....
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I remember all of those items being complained about for causing problems. If an item is so good that everyone buys it, then it's probably a problem.
After all if a minor, culturally flavorsome piece of equipment like the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier is on every single characters equipment list then it is clearly too powerful and needs changing.
One could say the same for Cloaks of Resistance, Rings of Protection, stat boosting items, Amulets of Natural Armor, and magic weapons.
Let's nerf them into uselessness too.
1/day crit negation was hardly gamebreaking. Perhaps a little under-priced with the +1 Luck to AC as well, but that was something easily fixable, by I don't know...maybe increasing the price.
Maybe it's a little fresh on my brain because that's the only reason my Skull and Shackles party only lost two members to cyclopes instead of the whole party recently, but this item seemed to help the game more than it hurt from my perspective.
Honestly, most of these seem more reasonable than people are saying....
Taking something from "too good" to "worthless" is not reasonable. It's bad design. Even worse than making them OP enough they needed to be changed in the first place.
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If an item is so good that everyone buys it, then it's probably a problem.
The reverse is also true. If an item is so bad, no one buys it, then it's probably a problem. Sadly, it looks like they just switch one problem for another. There is a middle ground, between too good and 'nuke from orbit' nerf, that errata/FAQ keep seeming to miss.
So what's the price for a second hand Jingasa after it's special one time only ability is used?
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There are only 10 rooms in your dungeons, and everything is visible from the door?
You see through 15 feet of stuff, not 15 feet ahead of you. So if you're looking through a 10 foot thick wall onto Wriggly field, you see the entire field