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Paizo have said before that a gauntlet is an unarmed strike and so uses weapon focus:unarmed strike. Shield gauntlet style in armor master's handbook lists wf: gauntlet as a pre-requisite. Should this read wf: unarmed strike
it's kinda like whip and scorpion whip. If you have weapon focus whip it'll work on the scorpion whip when used as a whip but you could still do weapon focus scorpion whip.
WF gauntlet is just a more focused WF.
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Apparently Paizo responded to Hero Lab's question on the matter and I've been asked Mark about it here and here.
To summarize:
1) Could you clarify how gauntlets should interact with feats and class abilities? Currently we aren't allowing it to be selected independantly of unarmed strike, and treating it as unarmed strike for SOME effects (weapon focus: unarmed strike also provides gauntlets an attack bonus, but monk increased damage does not increase gauntlet damage).
Should any effect that targets unarmed strike (like monk unarmed strike damage) affect gauntlets as well? Can gauntlets be selected as an independant weapon at all? What about the other direction (if you can select weapon focus: gauntlet, should it's attack bonus apply to unarmed strikes)?
At issue is the Weapon of the Chosen line of feats, which require weapon focus in the your deities favored weapon, in conjunction with choosing Ng the Hooded as your deity (who has the gauntlet as his favored weapon). Since gauntlets can't be chosen for weapon focus, there is currently no way to legally satisfy the pre-req in HL.
And just for completeness sake, are the various other "like unarmed strike" weapons (brass knuckles, cestus, locked gauntlet, spiked gauntlet, rope gauntlet) also subject to this ruling, or are they different? If so, how?Paizo Response: Gauntlet is actually an unarmed attack, not a separate weapon, so it can’t be enchanted (it uses amulet of mighty fists instead) and it uses all the unarmed strike stuff. All the others are separate weapons and work like manufactured weapons.
Mark explained that:
Basically Herolab asked our Licensing Coordinator who asked me, so I asked Jason, and he said that gauntlets are basically just a way to do lethal damage with your unarmed strikes, not an actual weapon (basically an inexpensive modifier for unarmed strikes that's in the unarmed strike category) and can't be enhanced on its own, whereas all those other weapons are listed separately as weapons, including spiked gauntlet.
So I asked:
Ok so to clarify:
1) There's no Weapon Focus (gauntlet) option, but one uses Weapon Focus (unarmed) instead? And this applies for all the other weapon specific feats/options out there. If so I guess Shield Gauntlet Style is gonna need an errata/clarification.
2) Amulet of mighty fists would apply to gauntlets, but what about brawling armor, since it just states +2 to unarmed attack and damage rolls? What about monk's robes on a non-monk, would that be 1d8 gauntlet damage?3) Do monk's finally get a nice thing? Can monks (and brawlers without close weapon mastery) equip gauntlets of special materials and benefit from their increased unarmed damage dice?
4) If it can't be enhanced and relies on amulet of mighty fists instead, I guess that it'll explain why I can't find any +X gauntlets easily (just wondrous item gauntlets) and makes sure monks still can't have cheap unarmed strike enhancements.
5) Since gauntlets are probably gonna see a big increase in functionality I better ask this now: would medium and heavy armors (except breastplates) made from special materials like mithral or adamantine grant free special material gauntlets that come with the armor, or are they regular steel varieties and gotta pay separately for them to be special material weapons?
There might be more questions down the line when I or others think of more since this is the first time any designer/developer give such a concrete position on gauntlets as unarmed strikes equivalent.
A FAQ would definitely help!
Mark suggests:
I'd say you should make a FAQ request for it; I bet it'll see clicks!
I'm not confident about (3) because on the surface it sort of makes sense, but they can't be enhanced, which also includes they can't be mwk, and some materials count as mwk. It would seem that (1), (2), and (4) might be the case given the premise, and (5) depends on (3) to even be a question, but if applicable, it would likely cost more in the same way that presumably the shield spikes on a wooden shield aren't wood and get materials and magic separately.
I'd like it clarified because I really don't know if one could even do Weapon Focus (gauntlet) for Shield Gauntlet Style right now or not.
Well, if you can't enchant a gauntlet, Shield Gauntlet Master really sucks.
Agreed. Unless going spiked gauntlet. But I'd rather use regular gauntlet to benefit from Vigilante's Fist of the avenger.
Wow. Huge nerf to gauntlets here. And once again a significant game change buried in arbitrary threads on the forums.
That Hero Labs post wasn't even buried in the Paizo forums (or even Hero Lab's forums that I could find anyways), I had to recently send a bug report/email asking for a house-rule option to click off (unarmed strike = gauntlets) rule Hero Lab has already been using since the 12.2 update. The newest version where it's applying Quain Martial Artist's +1 trait damage to unarmed strikes to also apply to gauntlets finally spurred me on to finally report/ask about it. They responded back with an email about their initial query to Paizo and I was floored by it since they haven't made such a concrete response with all the previous FAQ requests about it before.
Same. If no FAQ momentum happens from this thread, I hope someone with better experience than I could phrase the overall unarmed = gauntlet issue question better for a FAQ in a different thread.
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Apparently Paizo responded to Hero Lab's question on the matter and I've been asked Mark about it here and here.
To summarize:
1) Could you clarify how gauntlets should interact with feats and class abilities? Currently we aren't allowing it to be selected independantly of unarmed strike, and treating it as unarmed strike for SOME effects (weapon focus: unarmed strike also provides gauntlets an attack bonus, but monk increased damage does not increase gauntlet damage).
Should any effect that targets unarmed strike (like monk unarmed strike damage) affect gauntlets as well? Can gauntlets be selected as an independant weapon at all? What about the other direction (if you can select weapon focus: gauntlet, should it's attack bonus apply to unarmed strikes)?
At issue is the Weapon of the Chosen line of feats, which require weapon focus in the your deities favored weapon, in conjunction with choosing Ng the Hooded as your deity (who has the gauntlet as his favored weapon). Since gauntlets can't be chosen for weapon focus, there is currently no way to legally satisfy the pre-req in HL.
And just for completeness sake, are the various other "like unarmed strike" weapons (brass knuckles, cestus, locked gauntlet, spiked gauntlet, rope gauntlet) also subject to this ruling, or are they different? If so, how?Paizo Response: Gauntlet is actually an unarmed attack, not a separate weapon, so it can’t be enchanted (it uses amulet of mighty fists instead) and it uses all the unarmed strike stuff. All the others are separate weapons and work like manufactured weapons.
Mark explained that:
Basically Herolab asked our Licensing Coordinator who asked me, so I...
Man that is one hell of a weird ruling on that.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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A gauntlet is not an unarmed strike. It is an unarmed attack. There is a difference.
+1
You always needed weapon focus gauntlet to gain the +1 to it's unarmed attack.
That whole conversation between Herolab and Paizo and Mark seems to conflate unarmed strikes and unarmed attacks.
A gauntlet is an unarmed attack that provides a benefit if you attack with an unarmed strike. If you attack just with the gauntlet, you only gain the unarmed attack. So a +1 gauntlet using an amulet of mighty fists allows you to make it's unarmed attack with two overlapping +1 to attack and damage or make a +1 (only from AoMF) unarmed strike dealing lethal damage.
I'm getting deja-vu... (and so I FAQ'd again.)
A gauntlet is not an unarmed strike. It is an unarmed attack. There is a difference.+1
You always needed weapon focus gauntlet to gain the +1 to it's unarmed attack.
That whole conversation between Herolab and Paizo and Mark seems to conflate unarmed strikes and unarmed attacks.
A gauntlet is an unarmed attack that provides a benefit if you attack with an unarmed strike. If you attack just with the gauntlet, you only gain the unarmed attack. So a +1 gauntlet using an amulet of mighty fists allows you to make it's unarmed attack with two overlapping +1 to attack and damage or make a +1 (only from AoMF) unarmed strike dealing lethal damage.
That's a lot of word judo I can't follow in the best of times.
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FAQ
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
Walking through the gauntlet line by line:
- This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes.
This allows a non-Monk's unarmed strike to deal lethal damage as opposed to non-lethal which is the default.
- A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.
Attacks with a gauntlet deal the damage on a table based on your size but is an unarmed attack and carry all the unarmed attack rules. Any effect on this specific unarmed attack (such as Weapon Focus Gauntlet) would provide a benefit to this attack. Amulet of Mighty Fists provides a bonus to all "unarmed attacks" which covers unarmed strikes, gauntlets, "armed" unarmed attacks such as spell attacks, and natural weapons.
- Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
Your opponent can't disarm you of gauntlets, much like they can not disarm you of armor.
If you don't 100% agree with this rules break down, click FAQ. If you do agree but you have seen others disagree, click FAQ. If you are happy, click FAQ.
but they can't be enhanced, which also includes they can't be mwk, and some materials count as mwk
Wait, now we can't have Mithral pots? Time for more Errata for UE.
And Adamantine Full plate doesn't come with Adamantine gauntlets?
This thread was just pointed out to me in a thread I just started (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2turl?Unarmed-Vigiliante), in which I asked about this assertion below:
SKR stated, way back in the day, that there are not "unarmed strike" weapons.The most recent statement isn't saying they are unarmed strikes but unarmed attacks.
I think the biggest issue is everyone (including the devs) are confusing unarmed strikes with unarmed attacks?
If that were the case, then a monk cannot use Stunning Fist with their unarmed strike.
Stunning Fist (Combat)
You know just where to strike to temporarily stun a foe.Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn). A stunned character drops everything held, can't take actions, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Special: A monk receives Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
In addition, there are a few Style feats (Stag Horns, Janni Tempest, Mantis Torment, etc.) that mention when you hit with an unarmed attack. There is nothing in the feats nor in the Monk class that say they can use their Unarmed Strike whenever an ability/feat/whatever mentions Unarmed Attack.
In addition, there are defenses that work against "unarmed attack or natural attack" (such as the Swift Refuge feat or a Barbed Vest) would be bypassed by a non-monk using Improved Unarmed Strike (since their Unarmed Strike isn't specifically called out as functioning as a Natural Weapon whereas a Monk's is... I'm not saying it ISN'T a Natural Weapon, it just doesn't say by RAW that it is...).
Oh, and a Brawler couldn't use armor with the Brawling enchantment since it only benefits Unarmed Attacks...
Although, to be fair, the whole Brawling enchantment is a mixture of contradictions to anyone who parses rules by strict RAW:
Brawling
Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th; Weight —; Price +1 bonus
DESCRIPTION
The wearer of brawling armor gains a +2 bonus on unarmed attack and damage rolls, including combat maneuver checks made to grapple. Her unarmed strikes count as magic weapons for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. These bonuses do not apply to natural weapons. This special ability does not prevent the wearer's unarmed strikes from provoking attacks of opportunity or make the wearer's unarmed strikes count as armed attacks. The brawling ability can be applied only to light armor.
1) +2 bonus on unarmed attack and damage rolls, so no effect on unarmed strike but yes on unarmed attack.
2) unarmed strikes count as magic weapons, so unarmed strike is a magic weapon but an unarmed attack is not
3) these bonuses do not apply to natural weapons, so no benefit to unarmed attacks (which are natural weapons) nor to a monk's or brawler's unarmed strike (which count as natural weapons).
4) does not prevent wearer's unarmed strikes from provoking attacks of opportunity or make the wearer's unarmed strikes count as armed attacks, but if you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike, you can only attack with an unarmed attack NOT an unarmed strike, so that has no meaning RAW-wise
It seems clear that if there is confusion between what counts as an "unarmed attack" and what counts as an "unarmed strike" (and that they aren't the same) isn't just with the community, but with the books as well.
Frankly, I don't know why there needs to be a difference. If there wasn't, there'd be no confusion (that I can see, at least).
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Unarmed attacks include all attacks that are not weapon attacks. This include four subsets: natural weapons, touch attacks, unarmed strikes, and gauntlets. All are in the grey area of being treated as weapons for most effects, but not for others.
All unarmed strikes are unarmed attacks, but not all unarmed attacks are unarmed strikes.
Unarmed attacks include all attacks that are not weapon attacks. This include four subsets: natural weapons, touch attacks, unarmed strikes, and gauntlets. All are in the grey area of being treated as weapons for most effects, but not for others.
All unarmed strikes are unarmed attacks, but not all unarmed attacks are unarmed strikes.
I'm fine with this interpretation as well. And this allows for the "when you use an unarmed attack" allowing you to use Unarmed Strike.
This would also allow you to use some Style feats and Stunning Fist (as well as Dazing Fist and some others) with your Natural Attacks.
Oh, and by RAW, this would also allow you to still deal Monk unarmed strike damage with the Cestus and Brass Knuckles (despite Adventurer's Armory removing the part where it said specifically that Monks could use their unarmed strike damage, it still says that it allows you to deal lethal damage with your unarmed attacks... I'd like to quote an online resource for this, but I just noticed that d20pfsrd and archives of nethys don't agree with the exact wording, and neither matches my copy of AA).
Unarmed attacks include all attacks that are not weapon attacks. This include four subsets: natural weapons, touch attacks, unarmed strikes, and gauntlets. All are in the grey area of being treated as weapons for most effects, but not for others.
All unarmed strikes are unarmed attacks, but not all unarmed attacks are unarmed strikes.
I'm fine with this interpretation as well. And this allows for the "when you use an unarmed attack" allowing you to use Unarmed Strike.
This would also allow you to use some Style feats and Stunning Fist (as well as Dazing Fist and some others) with your Natural Attacks.
Oh, and by RAW, this would also allow you to still deal Monk unarmed strike damage with the Cestus and Brass Knuckles (despite Adventurer's Armory removing the part where it said specifically that Monks could use their unarmed strike damage, it still says that it allows you to deal lethal damage with your unarmed attacks... I'd like to quote an online resource for this, but I just noticed that d20pfsrd and archives of nethys don't agree with the exact wording, and neither matches my copy of AA).
Paizo seems pretty definite that everything but the gauntlet is weapon and not unarmed attacks.
Basically Herolab asked our Licensing Coordinator who asked me, so I asked Jason, and he said that gauntlets are basically just a way to do lethal damage with your unarmed strikes, not an actual weapon (basically an inexpensive modifier for unarmed strikes that's in the unarmed strike category) and can't be enhanced on its own, whereas all those other weapons are listed separately as weapons, including spiked gauntlet.
Gauntlet is actually an unarmed attack, not a separate weapon, so it can’t be enchanted (it uses amulet of mighty fists instead) and it uses all the unarmed strike stuff. All the others are separate weapons and work like manufactured weapons.
Cestus has the wording that it affects unarmed attacks, but it's in the light weapons table. The developer comments work with how the "unarmed" weapons have always been seen to work in the past (they are manufactured weapons and monks don't get nice things), but this gauntlet thing is like a giant outlier that needs clarification.
Paizo seems pretty definite that everything but the gauntlet is weapon and not unarmed attacks.Basically Herolab asked our Licensing Coordinator who asked me, so I asked Jason, and he said that gauntlets are basically just a way to do lethal damage with your unarmed strikes, not an actual weapon (basically an inexpensive modifier for unarmed strikes that's in the unarmed strike category) and can't be enhanced on its own, whereas all those other weapons are listed separately as weapons, including spiked gauntlet.Gauntlet is actually an unarmed attack, not a separate weapon, so it can’t be enchanted (it uses amulet of mighty fists instead) and it uses all the unarmed strike stuff. All the others are separate weapons and work like manufactured weapons.
I would request that, in the errata and in future printings, gauntlets then be completely removed from the Weapons section and instead moved to Equipment. That would curtail any further confusion in this regard.
The Fist of the Avenger vigilante talent:
"Fist of the Avenger (Ex): The vigilante gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, if he doesn't have this feat already. In addition, whenever he successfully attacks with his fist or a gauntlet, he gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to half his vigilante level (minimum +1, maximum of +5). Only an avenger vigilante can select this talent."
should probably either specify Spiked Gauntlet or remove gauntlets entirely since they are completely superfluous (the ability grants IUS, so the vigilante doesn't need the ability to deal lethal damage aspect of the gauntlet) or else they should say "whenever he successfully attacks with his fist or a gauntlet or a worn silk glove or whatever else he might have on his hands when he punches that isn't actually a weapon because we don't want this ability to work with spiked gauntlets or cestuses (cesti? cestae?) or any other future weapon that works like a punch but isn't because of reasons"
:D
Mark Seifter mentioned that this topic was expedited in the FAQ queue. Now that the convention is over I'm hoping we'll see a FAQ on this in the next few month.
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I just realized that they are also listed in the Close Weapon group...
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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a monk cannot use Stunning Fist with their unarmed strike.
I really don't know why this subject is so hard to grasp.
Unarmed Strike is an Unarmed Attack.
Things that only work on Unarmed Attacks work on Unarmed Strike.
All of your examples are you conflating Unarmed Attack with Unarmed Strike.
This whole problem would be fixed if they renamed Unarmed Strike as Funky Attack. No one would confuse the issue.
Oh, and by RAW, this would also allow you to still deal Monk unarmed strike damage with the Cestus and Brass Knuckles
Sigh, no because Unarmed Attack stays 1d3 on a 20th level Monk.
Mark Seifter mentioned that this topic was expedited in the FAQ queue. Now that the convention is over I'm hoping we'll see a FAQ on this in the next few month.
Good to know, thanks!
I didn't realize that my question was such a hot topic these days! I've been away from the boards for a while, so I guess I missed a lot and my searches didn't come up with any of this :D
Thanks again!
All unarmed strikes are unarmed attacks, but not all unarmed attacks are unarmed strikes.
Given the complexity of weapons overall (e.g. shields used as weapons or bastard swords being partially exotic, partially martial), maybe we need some fancy diagram.
I am tempted to say 'throw all these unnecessary exceptions away', but they (always?) add to players' options.
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a monk cannot use Stunning Fist with their unarmed strike.I really don't know why this subject is so hard to grasp.
Here's why:
Unarmed Strike is an Unarmed Attack.
Everything I've seen is with people only saying that "unarmed strike =/= unarmed attack" (yes, I get WHY that is still true, but without the caveat that Imbicatus mentioned earlier and only saying that they weren't equal doesn't automatically mean that one is a subset of the either). I apologize if there are a lot of threads where people have pointed out the subset aspect and I missed them. All I saw in my searches were ones that just said they weren't equal.
now the question is, can you have a +1 attacking gauntlet?
One more related question: Is Grapple/Bull-Rush/etc an "Unarmed Attack" (if not an Unarmed Strike)?
Honestly, it sounds like Paizo will need to release (provisional) Errata to some stuff no matter what,
so really they should feel free to Errata whatever is needed to make the whole system work better....
(if anything, a new Core Rules printing will probably come before anything else,
so that should be the ideal fix, especially if fixing one book makes all the others not need fixes/errata)
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now the question is, can you have a +1 attacking gauntlet?
Prior to the recent discussion of the Dev team, yes. The recent discussion of the dev team on Gauntlet seems to be at odds with the rules written into gauntlets.
Is Grapple/Bull-Rush/etc an "Unarmed Attack" (if not an Unarmed Strike)?
No they are standard actions. We know that Weapon Focus on anything except Grapple won't be added to a grapple check. But Weapon Focus Grapple is a thing. Weapon Focus Bull Rush isn't.
But Weapon Focus Grapple is a thing.
Really? this is new to me.
Really? this is new to me.But Weapon Focus Grapple is a thing.
It's in the feat description.
Weapon Focus (Combat)
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
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Really? this is new to me.But Weapon Focus Grapple is a thing.
It's in the feat description.
Weapon Focus (Combat)
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
that moment you have been playing (RPGs) for decades (and pathfinder since it came out), and have been the rules lawyer, have used something time and time again, and have only just noticed something about it... I have just now had that moment.
EDIT: added clarity
that moment you have been playing for decades, and have been the rules lawyer, have used something time and time again, and have only just noticed something about it... I have just now had that moment.Really? this is new to me.But Weapon Focus Grapple is a thing.
It's in the feat description.
Weapon Focus (Combat)
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
I know that feeling. :)
Is Grapple/Bull-Rush/etc an "Unarmed Attack" (if not an Unarmed Strike)?No they are standard actions. We know that Weapon Focus on anything except Grapple won't be added to a grapple check. But Weapon Focus Grapple is a thing. Weapon Focus Bull Rush isn't.
I think you misunderstood my post. Whatever their action classification is is irrelevant to this, in fact their action classification can change depending on special abilities, without otherwise affecting the underlying maneuver mechanic.
My question is more in context of this:
Unarmed attacks include all attacks that are not weapon attacks. This include four subsets: natural weapons, touch attacks, unarmed strikes, and gauntlets. All are in the grey area of being treated as weapons for most effects, but not for others.
All unarmed strikes are unarmed attacks, but not all unarmed attacks are unarmed strikes.
I'm trying to go with that paradigm as long as Paizo claims that is how it's supposed to work.
(as already discussed in thread, the distinction is pretty marginal, some material seems to assume there is no such distinction, and getting rid of the distinction actually fixes other problems, but if that's official, I'm not disputing it, just trying to clear up it's implications)
It just seems that within the quoted paradigm, that Grapple/Bull-Rush/etc certainly are "attacks that are not weapons" and would thus comprise a fifth sub-set of Unarmed Attacks. Being Unarmed Attacks is distinct from Unarmed Strike, and Grapple/Bull-Rush/etc being Unarmed Attacks has no relevance on Weapon Focus giving distinct options for UAStrike and Grapple (each is a specific "weapon", WF doesn't care about Unarmed Attack category any more than it cares about Light Melee Weapon category) . Whether or not Weapon Focus:Bullrush or other non-weapon maneuvers is a legitimate selection isn't explicitly covered by the rules, although I see no reason why it shouldn't be allowed... But I'm not asking this for Weapon Focus, but for other mechanics interfacing with the broader category of "Unarmed Attacks" (not Strikes).
I guess my agenda is that leaving stuff like Grapple etc in some grey no-man's-land just doesn't seem ideal, and if there is some category they can tie into, that it would just clarify things over-all, and improve game-play in terms of compatability with broader mechanics. E.g. grapple/etc currently have less means of accessing enhancement bonuses, while CMD is same vs. grapple or weapon-enhanced sunder. Including them as sub-set of Unarmed Attacks means they qualify for Amulet of Mighty Fist, although Magic Fang would not work since it only applies to Nat Attacks and "fists" (not even headbutt/kick/etc UAStrike by RAW).
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So, what you're saying, if I'm understanding you, is that it is needlessly complicated.
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Paizo Response: Gauntlet is actually an unarmed attack, not a separate weapon, so it can’t be enchanted (it uses amulet of mighty fists instead) and it uses all the unarmed strike stuff. All the others are separate weapons and work like manufactured weapons.
This is incorrect (both by RAW and by example); you can enchant gauntlets, because they wrote the Constrictor's Gauntlets (Dirty Tactics Toolbox 25). Which are specifically and clearly stated to be +1 gauntlets, and require the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat.
So remind me, is it Paizo's stance that the rules are clear, Errata is unnecessary, and current FAQ is sufficient for all this?
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Paizo Response: Gauntlet is actually an unarmed attack, not a separate weapon, so it can’t be enchanted (it uses amulet of mighty fists instead) and it uses all the unarmed strike stuff. All the others are separate weapons and work like manufactured weapons.This is incorrect (both by RAW and by example); you can enchant gauntlets, because they wrote the Constrictor's Gauntlets (Dirty Tactics Toolbox 25). Which are specifically and clearly stated to be +1 gauntlets, and require the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat.
I'm pretty sure when we get a more elaborate answer, they will realize that passage conflates Unarmed Attack and Unarmed Strike.
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Paizo Response: Gauntlet is actually an unarmed attack, not a separate weapon, so it can’t be enchanted (it uses amulet of mighty fists instead) and it uses all the unarmed strike stuff. All the others are separate weapons and work like manufactured weapons.This is incorrect (both by RAW and by example); you can enchant gauntlets, because they wrote the Constrictor's Gauntlets (Dirty Tactics Toolbox 25). Which are specifically and clearly stated to be +1 gauntlets, and require the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat.
And it's wrong because it's a separate weapon, as shown by the Close Weapon Group along with Unarmed Strike which has been out (and unchanged) since the CRB first came out.