Kineticist: Replacing Basic Utility Talents

[Renkosuke]

Hello, I'm relatively new to the Pathfinder world (and forums) but after looking over several classes, I've come to really like the kineticist. When reading over the Wild Talent rules, specifically the part that allows you to replace utility wild talents, I came across the following questions:

1) Is it possible to replace a basic utility talent (say, Basic Phytokinesis) for another level 1 utility wild talent?

2) Given that (1) is possible, and given that Expanded Element states that you gain the chosen element's basic utility talent, without any specific restriction regarding if you chose a primary or non-primary element to expand (probably because this seemed obvious at the time), would it follow that you could replace your basic utility (at level 6 for example) and then regain it for "free" by choosing your primary element again (at level 7), along with the free utility/infusion you would normally gain for expanding your primary element?

RAW, I would say (1) and (2) are both plausible, but RAI I would only really say (1) is justified. Either way, if someone could share some insight, I would greatly appreciate it :)

[Protoman]

It's not intended for a kineticist to replace a basic utility wild talent for a utility wild talent.

Basic utility wild talent should be seen more as "basic utility wild talent" rather than "basic utility wild talent" where basic utility is seen as its own category of wild talent, much like with simple blast and defense wild talent are their own categories. Those types aren't meant to be replaced at certain levels like regular utility or infusion wild talents.

Basic utility wild talents are introduced and mentioned in the Elemental Focus (Su) class feature and Expanded Element (Su) which doesn't have a replacement text that the Wild Talent and Infusions class features does. Basic utility wild talents are set features when picking an elemental focus or expanded element and go hand in hand with the element's simple blast talent.

[The Mortonator]

While I believe Protoman has the right intent, technically... By all the wording in the class... You could swap them out...

Yea... Hun. That is weird. You seem to be totally right by letter of the law. I never thought of that before.

[Renkosuke]

I do agree with Protoman, considering just how ridiculous/munchkiny it would be to do those kinds of rules acrobatics that I described, but I think it can be somewhat hard to justify basic utility vs basic utility considering how the abilities themselves are all located in the utility wild talent section (nevermind them being introduced elsewhere).

Of course, you could argue that they're not arranged alphabetically in relation to the other utilities (since "basic" should obviously not come before "aerial") but one could counter-argue that that's just there for convenience because they're ubiquitous abilities.

In other words, it's probably just up to the GM :P

[HeHateMe]

Of course, it's the developers own fault this question has come up. If those basic kinesis abilities weren't completely worthless, people wouldn't be looking for ways to replace them.

[Mark Seifter]

Protoman wrote:

It's not intended for a kineticist to replace a basic utility wild talent for a utility wild talent.

Basic utility wild talent should be seen more as "basic utility wild talent" rather than "basic utility wild talent" where basic utility is seen as its own category of wild talent, much like with simple blast and defense wild talent are their own categories. Those types aren't meant to be replaced at certain levels like regular utility or infusion wild talents.

Basic utility wild talents are introduced and mentioned in the Elemental Focus (Su) class feature and Expanded Element (Su) which doesn't have a replacement text that the Wild Talent and Infusions class features does. Basic utility wild talents are set features when picking an elemental focus or expanded element and go hand in hand with the element's simple blast talent.

This is correct. Basic utility talents are their own thing; an extra freebie added to each element to represent basic control of the element (suggested by many in the class playtest). You gain your primary element's basic kinesis from the elemental focus class feature. Their distinction was even clearer in the version just after the playtest but before copyfitting where each element listed class skills, simple blasts, defense, and basic utility directly under it (instead of just class skills). The current version is easier to read through the elements and takes up less space, but it makes that distinction harder to see than when they weren't listed with the other utilities.

[Faelyn]

HeHateMe wrote:

Of course, it's the developers own fault this question has come up. If those basic kinesis abilities weren't completely worthless, people wouldn't be looking for ways to replace them.

Dude, turn down the vitriol. We all get that you have an unending hate for the kineticist. Unless you have something valuable to add to the discussion, please move your comments elsewhere. In direct response to that comment. I utterly disagree. Every single of the basic element talents have a ton of usage! Just because they are not usage in combat (which seems to be what HeHateMe uses to justify anything's worth), doesn't mean they are worthless.

[Azten]

Well... maybe Wood's basic could be a little more than pruning and searching plant-filled areas at a -5.

[Mark Seifter]

Azten wrote:

Well... maybe Wood's basic could be a little more than pruning and searching plant-filled areas at a -5.

Yeah, I've been thinking of some other possibilities to add to it. If Occult Origins somehow becomes the second Player Companion ever (the first was Adventurer's Armory) to get a reprint and actually include basic phyto in there (and then if it can even fit on the page :gulp:) I'm going to see about hashing that out with Owen. But that's a big if and a big dream that statistically is unlikely.

[Azten]

Well you didn't have it in the book, so what's stopping you from making a new one now?

[Mark Seifter]

Azten wrote:

Well you didn't have it in the book, so what's stopping you from making a new one now?

I'm not the one in charge of it and who'd have to put in the hours adjusting, and making more work for other people is a bad thing for me to do unless they're going to happen anyways. Even if I came up with something unofficial and posted it, it would put pressure on other people to act on it, so I've intentionally not fully decided yet and am keeping my ideas open in case that time comes (not anything drastic but making sure it's clear that using it for gardening also lets you do things like woodcrafting and other flavorful stuff that GMs might have already been allowing but some might not depending on their strictness on the talent).

[Renkosuke]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Azten wrote:

Well you didn't have it in the book, so what's stopping you from making a new one now?

I'm not the one in charge of it and who'd have to put in the hours adjusting, and making more work for other people is a bad thing for me to do unless they're going to happen anyways. Even if I came up with something unofficial and posted it, it would put pressure on other people to act on it, so I've intentionally not fully decided yet and am keeping my ideas open in case that time comes (not anything drastic but making sure it's clear that using it for gardening also lets you do things like woodcrafting and other flavorful stuff that GMs might have already been allowing but some might not depending on their strictness on the talent).

A business is still a business after all. Definitely understandable, even if it can be at times frustrating (for both the players and the developers).

To be clear though, my intent was never to get rid of a basic utility since I find most of them pretty useful, it was just some munchkin theorycrafting which should never really get by in competitive/official play anyway.

Thanks for the reply to the thread though Mark :)

You can expect some more munchkin questions from me in the future, mostly about the kineticist!