I've got a Ratfolk Urban Druid that is currently 3rd level and already has (and has used for the party often) Craft/Alchemy.
He is already conniving, selfish, and out to take whatever he can get away with. I envision him overcoming his combat shortcomings by relying on poison... dipping into Alchemist at the 4HD mark seems to be the route to take.
Casting the net wide - Confirmation? Or other suggestions?
Poison is a difficult route to go for anyone. Beyond poison being expensive, even when you craft it, there are a whole lot of enemies that are immune. For those enemies that aren't immune, Fort is often their best save. Then, even if you effect them, while the initial effect can be nice, the real power of poison is that it can continue to damage over time, and that it is relatively difficult to cure the effects. These are problems for PCs, but not really for the monsters you fight that are going to be dead in a round or two anyway.
1 level of Alchemist won't really do anything to let you poison people, you don't get that until level 2, so if you returned to Druid then you would be an entire spell level behind for the rest of the game. Those spells would almost certainly be more effective in combat than your poisons. You would gain weak bombs, and a few low level infusions as well of course, but even that doesn't equal out what you are giving up.
If you really want a poisoning character, alchemist is a good way to go, but I would suggest trying to retrain away your Druid levels and just be an alchemist, rather than trying to combine the two. That said, I expect even if you were just an alchemist, you won't find poison to really be all that useful most of the time.
I have a player trying to use poison with his ninja. He's spends tons of gold an a poison that has a decent save DC. Then he get's one chance for it to work. When he has managed to hit and apply the poison the creature died before it's next turn.
So wait...you have a character who is a selfish scheming jerk out for himself, commonly practices Alchemy, and wants to use poison as a means to resolve violence?
How do 3 levels of Druid fit into that? Because seriously, they don't. That has "Chaotic Neutral But Really Chaotic Evil Rogue" written all over it, not "Fancy Pants Tree Hugger."
Anyway...
If you really want to specialize in Poison, just pick up Poison spells. I'm sure there are several that fit the bill that Druids can use. If not, well, then I'll stand behind my above point: There was no reason to go Druid to fulfill the character concept you wanted, and now you have a paradoxical character that we can't help with short of throwing it in the scrap pile and starting over.
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Why do Druids always have to be fancy pants tree huggers? Not that poisoning is a viable druid route, but the Druid class is just a priest that derives it's power from the natural world and shapeshifts, nothing about it dictates personality or bars a character from being conniving.
However, I don't think dipping into Alchemist will help you very much, perhaps rebuild as an Alchemist
URBAN DRUID, Darksol.
Love Domain... manifested in his love of SELF. And he IS Chaotic Neutral, BTW. Nyah, nyah, nyah...
Seriously, though - Anyone can poison without the Use Poison rule and take their chances. the Alchemist level will get me an additional +1 (for the level) the ability to give myself another +5 to crafting check, a couple of free feats, with UMD and Sleight of Hand as new class skills.
What I am talking about is things like Contact Poison on the handle of a dagger, on a pouch of silver and on my waterproof gloves, dropping the dagger on the street near my mark, he picks it up, I re=cognize I dropped it and turn around to retrieve it, thank him with a pouch of silver and shake his hand.
That is the simplified version of course - there is some disguise going on and whatnot... Three doses of Contact Poison, so -4 to Save and +50% to duration.
I am not talking about using it solely in combat, but as a genuine tool to drum up cash by robbing NPC's...
Why do Druids always have to be fancy pants tree huggers? Not that poisoning is a viable druid route, but the Druid class is just a priest that derives it's power from the natural world and shapeshifts, nothing about it dictates personality or bars a character from being conniving.
However, I don't think dipping into Alchemist will help you very much, perhaps rebuild as an Alchemist
I highly doubt a selfish scheming jerkwad who wants to practice poison use properly fits the bolded description without being Chaotic Evil. (And yes, Chaotic Stupid falls under that bill too.) Again, aside from spells, I don't see a Druid being able to make good use of Poison.
Even if that is his gameplan, my question still stands: How do 3 levels of Druid fit into the concept he's trying to emulate? It's like saying I'm a 2nd level Barbarian and I'm trying to play it off as someone who can do it all effectively, so I'm deciding to take Sorcerer levels for spellcasting.
Why would I be a Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 1 when a Bloodrager 3 (and eventually Bloodrager 4) accomplishes that sort of character so much better?
Fair enough. I did not think I would need any kind of detailed concept for the PC to get the original question answered, but you (and possibly others) might have a point questioning how this came to be. So this is Nin Moq.
We are playing the AP Hell’s Rebels. Nin is part of a clan that lives in and under Kintargo’s sewers, there he learned his some druidic ways, twisting the spells and talent around his inherent narcissism. His family was mercantile and Nin was away doing family business outside Kintargo when the Night of Ashes occurred. When he was finally able to get access back into the city, he found his clan all but destroyed.
Inquiries filled in some details, his family was arrested on trumped-up charges by the Church, their assets seized and they have never been heard from. Other clan families suffered similarly, sanctioned robbery and false arrests. Many decided to leave, some decided to go deeper and just avoid humans altogether. Nin decided he would not go quietly.
The hatred of the Church of Asmodeus, corrupt governmental authority, and sycophants who support them are the tenuous threads that keep him connected to his allies, a Tengu Samurai (NG), a Half-Elf Slayer (N), and a Paladin (LG.)
Nin has no moral compass. He believes all life has value, just HIS life is MORE valuable. He has no respect for anyone that would look to him to lead. The Paladin is the “leader” and Nin has told him flat out that he will only participate if it entertains him or he can see the directions move towards his goal. Nin also delights in challenging that “leader’s” moral code by putting him in innocuous but sticky situations socially.
Nin sees the wisdom of having these allies to reach his long-term goal of throwing down the Church and the local government so all can choose their own way, but also sees nothing wrong (and a lot of entertainment and potential for gold) with victimizing and humiliating Asmodeans, authority figures and citizens who would support them when the opportunity struck.
Regarding how I would handle the Paladin and poison use…
His character does not even know Nin has poison in his possession. Nin would not tell him if he asked, or he’d lie. The pally does not need to be clued in at all.
If I DO decide to use poison in some form of combat, taking the level in Alchemist opens up the potential for me to apply the poison using Sleight of Hand while the paladin is distracted going toe-to-toe in melee, he’d never know. AND even if he did notice, it is a good RP hook to go through.
The Slayer and I are going to partner up for the, “victimizations.” The other two PC’s do not need to even be aware. Though there will ALWAYS be risk, we are smart enough RPers to mitigate our risks or call it off if we feel not enough research is done before hand or it gets too risky.
The DM is not adverse to this, and we know he will not let us run rampant all over the adventure, but nor do we intend to. Just “personalizing it” and adding potential plot hooks and RP opportunity.
Thank you, Dave, Chess and Gyspy; I'll take all that into consideration. The way we play, optimization is not a concern, it is about going where the story and experiences lead us and how the personalities of the PC's interact. I am hesitant to rebuild.
Darksol - I've went the distance and answered the OT side-bar to encourage on-topic suggestions.
You were perfectly willing to take time criticizing the concept/build when you knew nothing about the context, so... take time to be constructive now?
Genuinely looking for input.
I highly doubt a selfish scheming jerkwad who wants to practice poison use properly fits the bolded description without being Chaotic Evil. (And yes, Chaotic Stupid falls under that bill too.) Again, aside from spells, I don't see a Druid being able to make good use of Poison.Why do Druids always have to be fancy pants tree huggers? Not that poisoning is a viable druid route, but the Druid class is just a priest that derives it's power from the natural world and shapeshifts, nothing about it dictates personality or bars a character from being conniving.
However, I don't think dipping into Alchemist will help you very much, perhaps rebuild as an Alchemist
I don't see why being selfish is inherently evil as long as the character isn't inflicting undue harm on others. You can be completely out for yourself and be neutral. Good protects the innocent; evil harms the innocent; neutral just doesn't interfere. As far as poison use goes - considering how many natural things use poison and venom, that seems rather in keeping with being a Druid.
I already stated my suggestions: Dipping Alchemist levels isn't a really good idea, and doesn't synchronize with the 3 levels of Druid you've currently taken.
The concept of being skilled at Poison usage, aside from Poison spells, isn't particularly supported by the Druid levels you've taken, especially when the class features (sans Spells) don't support the concept of Poison usage being strong or commonplace.
Alchemist is good as you can automatically poison your weapons without poisoning yourself, and you can apply Poison as a Swift Action by 6th level. Although not inherently powerful, it serves well in a combat scenario. There is also the Vishkanya race, which creates their own poison and has its own unique effects; plus, the Save DC scales, meaning it will remain effective throughout your adventuring career.
Unfortunately, because you took the 3 Druid levels, the true benefits of the Alchemist levels regarding poison won't take effect until you hit 9th level, at which point the Outsiders start coming out of the woodwork, and 9 times out of 10, they're immune to poison.
Let's also not take into consideration that any Poison worth its salt is extremely expensive and/or rare to come by, and that any target worth its salt is prepared against the likes of Poison, or is immune and therefore laughs at any attempt you may make on them. As others have said, Poison is generally a GM tool used to debuff PCs, because the PCs will generally last and last (as they should), whereas NPCs or monsters will die usually within the very combat where they utilize said poison, and the way they mechanically function and how they impact PCs in comparison to NPCs or monsters supports that claim.
In short, not only is Poison use severely sub-optimal in comparison to beating them into a bloodsplot like any Wildshape Druid would normally implement, but it's also really only effective as a GM debuffing tool. It's good to prepare against it, but to prepare with it isn't particularly strong.
@ MeanMutton: Things that use venom or poison (snakes come to mind) would generally be labeled Evil if they had sentience behind them, and is a very common adjudication across many forms of literature, both ancient and recent.
Of course, snakes get a green card because they're not sentient; they have animal-like intelligence, which means they only act on instinct and base desires, such as sustenance or protection, and nothing else. Unless our Druid player here has animal-like intelligence (which I doubt), he has both the benefits and drawbacks of sentience, as well as a specific intent behind his actions well beyond the base desires of any living creature.
He already gave me an idea of what he plans to do, which involves lacing an item he purposefully drops with poison to spread it to a bystanding pedestrian who would pick it up, come into contact with the poison, and then leaving them to deal with the consequences. Although it appears harmless, anyone who can see through the ruse (a strong enough Perception and Sense Motive check would do the trick, and the Paladin and City Guards should have ranks in them) will identify it as an Evil act, even if it isn't necessarily a very Evil act, such as murdering in cold blood.
The funny thing is, that plan wouldn't work that way, because if they use a contact poison, the effects of the poison would immediately take place if they touch the item, meaning before they have a chance to give it back to the player, they would be suffering its effects, and the NPC would certainly know that the item had some sort of negative effect on the NPC, in which point his ability to Bluff, Stealth, or Disguise his way out of that would practically fall upon itself unless he has an ungodly amount of modifiers and/or class features, such as Hide in Plain Sight, to those skills.
While a dip might thematically suit you, you'll have to weight the benefits against what you lose.
The first level gives you:
Mutagen, Brew Potion, Alchemy (Extracts), Throw Anything, Bomb.
But this doesn't actually grant you the poison-abilities that you were after, so you would have to dip another level which would give you:
Discovery, Poison Resistance and Poison Use.
And another level until Swift Alchemy.
...and Swift Poisoning at Alchemist 6 (which often is the backbone of combat poison use.)
*****
While it might be nice to get all these new abilities, you'll be pretty MAD (You should have atleast 12 Int for level 1-2 dip) and you lose your spellcaster progression. You could simply take the Master Alchemist feat at level 5 (shortens the crafting time with 90%), and invest skill ranks in Craft (Alchemy) while still going full Druid.
You can still be an alchemist without taking levels in the Alchemist class.
The Master Alchemist feat, as mentioned, would even make you faster than an equal leveled alchemist without it until level 18.
Edit: As for using poisons, I've had far more luck with Poisoner's Gloves and drugs. The main difference between drugs and poison is that you can't avoid the negative effects of drugs even with a successful fortitude save.
Have you considered wildshaping into a venomous creature, the save DC on the poison is the save DC of whatever polymorph spell wildshape is functioning as to let you turn into it, so with a good wis can be very useable.
Thank you all for the input.
The Master Alchemist Feat does look like the way to go instead of dipping. The PC has a 12INT that is getting boosted soon (took Craft Wondrous at 3rd) and have had Craft Alchemy from the start (currently at +9.) It is not JUST poisons, there are remedies and enhancements that I make and plan to make that are RAW. I am also going to craft a Cauldron of Brewing, cheap for an additional +5 to the check.
Regarding the plan and the effects happening immediately & therefore not working - most contact poisons have a 1min onset time, so that part is viable. Sense Motive would be a wash - a passive check unless there was reason to be wary.