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I have to say, I love this scenario. I've enjoyed the evolution of the Influence mechanic and expect this to be very fun for players of social
PCs.
A few questions from reading the pre-release version ahead of PaizoCon:
1. There is no artwork for Cynan Androtus like for the other bidders. Will that be in the final version? If not, any suggestions of a picture that would be good for him?
2. The map of Alabastrine does not have the districts labeled. I can make my best guesses, but if that could be clarified and possibly fixed in the final version, that would be helpful.
3. The instructions on page 24 state to give the entire party a +4 to all Discovery checks if any PC made the Recognize check. That effectivly lowers the DC to 8 in some cases in Subtier 1-2. Is that the intent?
4. The instructions on page 25 in "Before a Social Event" say to give the party each a Discovery check at -5 if they know who their targets are beforehand. Does that apply in this case? I assume they have plenty of time on Day 0 to make those checks before going to the first event on Day 1.
5. The stat blocks indicate the number of successes needed to gain influence over each NPC. Once that is done, do they automatically win their favored district, or do the PCs get to suggest which district they should try to win? If they only go for their preferred district, then Myrosype is guaranteed to win the Harbor, costing the players their secondary success condition. Passad points out to the PCs that nobody has expressed an interest in the Harbor, and they should suggest it to someone, but I don't see how that plays out.
6. The Event Rewards section mentions that the PCs earn certain items for gaining influence over specific NPCs. I assume we are meant to cross those items off of the chronicle if they didn't earn them. Is that correct?
7. Do players in Subtier 4-5 also get the subtier 1-2 items that are rewards from the NPCs, or should they only get the one associated with their tier?
8. The New Contacts boon provides a boon for each influenced NPC. Is it intended to be one use ever (selecting one of the available checks) or one use per influenced NPC?
Developer
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Thanks for the questions, Tony. I'll be sure that all of these points are clarified in the final version.
1) The art is in, and will be in the final version.
2) We've added labels to the file.
3) Double-checked. The DCs that are that particularly low are the ones to know that spending turns on Myrosype is a waste of time, and to learn about Temel Passad, who has interacted with the Society quit a bit in the past. I expect basically every group to succeed at these checks.
4) Yes, and I'm adding a paragraph to make this clear.
5) Each NPC can only bid for two districts: the one they care about, and the harbor. The harbor takes 3 additional dedicated checks. I've added several sentences to the section on page 19 to make that clearer.
6) Yes.
7) To clear this up,the text now indicates that they get 1–2's rewards as well.
8) Once ever, for the NPC that the Exchange people convinced to ally with them (See the Faction Notes text).
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Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown
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In A3, wouldn't Fowrah's sneak attack damage be D8s since she is a knife master using daggers instead of the d6s
Sneak Stab (Ex): A knife master focuses her ability to deal sneak attack damage with daggers and similar weapons to such a degree that she can deal more sneak attack damage with those weapons at the expense of sneak attacks with other weapons. When she makes a sneak attack with a dagger, kerambit (page 131), kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger (Advanced Player’s Guide 178), she uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s. For sneak attacks with all other weapons, she uses d4s instead of d6s. This ability is identical in all other ways to sneak attack, and supplements that ability.
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Are GMs for this scenario allowed to advise players to read the Influence system ahead of time? I'm to GM this in 6 days, and I'd rather not spend a ton of time at the table explaining what's going on with that. I'm imagining the 45 minute explanation of mass combat and troop rules from Assault on the Wound. I'd rather not repeat that experience.
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In A3, wouldn't Fowrah's sneak attack damage be D8s since she is a knife master using daggers instead of the d6s
I'm not sure if that would have helped or harmed my cavalier. (He failed all the Wis checks with his -1 ability modifier and then lose initiative to her. Three sneak attacks and two arrows later and he was at -2.)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown
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In A3, wouldn't Fowrah's sneak attack damage be D8s since she is a knife master using daggers instead of the d6sI'm not sure if that would have helped or harmed my cavalier. (He failed all the Wis checks with his -1 ability modifier and then lose initiative to her. Three sneak attacks and two arrows later and he was at -2.)
I believe that was just a series of unfortunate events.
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Le Petite Mort, when Andy, our GM at Paizo Con, explained this to us, it took about 5-10 minutes, tops. Shouldnt be too bad.
I can see that now. It's really complicated from the GM's perspective, but there really isn't all that much of the system that needs to be related to the players.
I'd like to make sure I understand how the bidding section works, as there are a lot of conditional modifiers to things, information to be hidden or revealed, and checks to make. I would appreciate anyone willing to read the below synopsis of the section, and corrections to any misapprehensions I might have.
Before each event (or maybe just once before Passad's event?): Each PC can make a Knowledge (nobility or local) check at a -5 penalty as a discovery for any of the five NPCs. The +4 bonus for 'particularly prominent NPCs' isn't mentioned within the scenario, but I feel it would be appropriate at least for the Lord-Councillor lady.
At each event, each PC can first attempt the Recognize check to get the background information on a given NPC, and grant a +4 bonus to the party's future discovery checks against that NPC. This check is not considered as that PC's influence/discovery check for the event. Additionally, Passad will tell the players the contents of the Introduction section for whatever NPC they wish to speak to.
After that, each PC can attempt either to discover information about one of the NPCs or to influence them. Each PC gets to make 1 such check in any given event, unless noted otherwise within the event. For example, at Passad's event each PC can attempt a discovery check AND an influence check or additional discovery check. Notably, Discovery checks made at the events themselves can use Sense Motive in addition to Knowledge (local or nobility), and no longer suffer from the -5 penalty.
Discovery checks can reveal a single skill that can be used to influence a given NPC (in ascending order of DC), their Weaknesses, or their Strengths. The Biases and Impressing the Host sections are not revealed by discovery checks.
I am unclear on how information within those sections should be disseminated to players. My thought is that it should occur organically through room descriptions and dialogue. For example, I would take great care to describe Passad's lush gardens, and describe him looking at various rare orchids with pride when the PC's enter the event. If a PC from the Exchange faction failed an influence check against Passad, I might have him say something along the lines of, "Your words have reason, but I can't know your motives. I know you are loyal to that conniving Trade Prince, and can't be sure this isn't one of his ploys for a greater stake in Druma's mercantile industries."
Influence can be made with a set of skills that varies from one NPC to another. Furthermore, different skills have varying DCs within any given NPC's influence section. Beyond this, a variety of factors provide circumstance modifiers to influence checks, namely: biases, strengths, weaknesses, Event Adjustments, and if they have been impressed as a host.
It is therefore important to note exactly what a given PC is saying and doing when influencing a given NPC.
Example: A PC at the Petronax Gala attempts to influence Passad again, after having already garnered one success during Passad's own event. This PC says, "What a lovely masquerade! Though, I do prefer the shaded boughs of your own beautiful garden. Trade Prince Hakam would surely benefit from the advice of such an accomplished botanist as yourself when investing in agricultural futures. I'm sure he'd make it more than worth your time, though helping us to keep the Courts of Abstinence out of the Consotrium's hands would go a long way towards improving potential consultation fees."
This PC is using Bluff, as Hakam has no interest in working with Passad. The PC gets a +2 bonus for mentioning the gardens, a +2 bonus from Passad's bias towards those spending a lot of time with him, a +2 bonus to Bluff from the masquerade's event adjustment, and a -4 penalty from openly flaunting association with the Exchange faction. Therefore this PC has a net circumstance modifier of +2. The PC rolls a total of 29 in the 4-5 tier, and the +2 circumstance modifier takes it to 31. He therefore succeeds despite being loyal to Al-Hakam, and by 10. The PC decides to use the second success (granted by exceeding the influence DC by 10) towards convincing Passad to invest in the Luminous Docks district in addition to the Courts of Abstinence.
I feel that the influence system truly requires that PCs roleplay their influence attempts fully, rather than just report the total die roll. Given how brief this scenario is outside of the bidding process, I feel it is doubly important here. I am considering levying significant circumstance penalties (like, -5) against PCs that do not roleplay, and potential bonuses beyond those specified in the scenario for truly well thought out dialogue.
In short, the GM does the following:
1) Have PC's roll -5 penalized Knowledge based Discovery checks against an NPC before the event.
2) Have PC's each choose an NPC, and whether they will be attempting a Discovery or Influence check.
3) Read the Introduction section for the NPC, and allow the PC to roll the Recognize check.
4) Have the PC roll the influence or discovery check, applying the copious cirucmstance modifiers as appropriate.
5) Tally successes, noting what occurs if PCs fail or succeed by 5+ or 10+.
6) Repeat this entire process for the remaining PCs at the table before moving on to the next Event.
Is that the gist?
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In short, the GM does the following:
Almost.
First, The Recognize check is a one time "Have you heard of this person before?" check. Do that immediately after Passad gives his introduction to the NPCs. A single PC making the check gives everyone in the party the information and bonus.Next, #1 is also a one time check made on the day the party arrives in Kerse, before the events begin. This represents them asking around about the individuals but not actually interacting with them (hence the lack of Sense Motive). Do this after the Recognize check. It's a chance for "free" discovery information.
At each of the five events, the sequence goes like this:
A. Party arrives and gets the description.
B. Some sort of special thing happens (Free round of discovery at Passad's party, try to eat the tentacles at Irith's, etc.) The results of this may give some PCs bonuses or penalties going forward.
C. Each PC in turn selects an NPC to either Discover or Influence. Other PCs can choose to join them as an aid, giving up their chance to make their own check. The PC makes the check, and you record the result, possibly giving out additional information.
Note that the result of one PC's action may change what another PC wants to do, so it isn't necessary to have them all select their NPC ahead of time.
I recommend not penalizing players who can't roleplay "in character", but do emphasize that they should at least be able to explain the gist of what they want to say and how they are utilizing the chosen skill. There are a lot of circumstance modifiers (more that help the PCs than hinder them) that will be missed if they do not. Failing to adequately explain how they are making the check will be its own penalty, for the most part, so there is no need to add more (especially at low tier, where it is harder to get the +5 or +10 on a single check).
I ran this twice at PaizoCon, once at low tier and once at high (and at the high tier I had Exchange members and people with the right Serpent's Rise boon, for added complexity). Both tables enjoyed the game, and both commented that my use of handouts was key.
Here is what I had:
1. A small card listing the five events in order, so they could plan on which things would happen on the same day (important for spells and bardic performance rounds)
2. A reference card listing the basics of the influence mechanic so they knew what their choices were each round
3. A roughly 3"x4" picture card with the name of each NPC
4. A page with Passad's background information, with pictures.
5. A strip with the Recognize information, with pictures.
6. A strip for each possible discovery, with pictures.
The pictures helped the players keep the information associated with the right NPC much more easily than just names would. The strips allowed information to be passed out as it was discovered, and easily passed around the table. It was a bit of work ahead of time, but made the game flow so well, I definitely recommend it.
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Tony, any chance you can upload that to GM Shared Prep? :pI have been given to understand that due to copyright issues, prep work that includes extensive quotes and pictures are not allowed there. If I am misinformed, I would be happy to post my files.
I'll just take your word for it then. I'm very unfamiliar with copyright laws on this kind of stuff. Extra hours of work it is!
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Thanks for the tips, Tony. How long did your tables run? Given the single combat encounter (and it being an incredibly easy and simple one with no consequences) I feel like the entire thing could be done in about 90 minutes.In short, the GM does the following:Almost.
I think the 5 player 1-2 table took about 3 hours, and the 6 player 4-5 took 3.5.
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What have other GMs done regarding eidolons, familiars, and animal companions? I see three potential options:
1. Disallow them from making influence / discovery checks at all.
2. Only allow them or their master to make an influence / discovery check per round.
3. Allow each of them to roll during each round, as if they were two separate players.I think #3 is the most logical from an in-character standpoint, but #2 seems to the most balanced.
I would allow an eidolon/phantom that was sufficiently non-outlandish in appearance to aid its master (in fact, it might get bonuses to certain NPCs), but not make its own check. I can't imagine how an animal companion would make a social or investigation skill check, much less communicate the results; certain familiars (assuming the owner has the ability to speak with them) are intelligent enough and have the right skills to assist, but that's going to be case-by-case, I think.
1. Is the town called Dustspawn or Dustpawn? There is a module called Doom Comes to Dustpawn, but the scenario repeatedly uses Dustspawn.
According to Inner Sea World Guide (page 82) it is "Dustpawn".
2. In the 1 - 2 subtier, the Isgeri bandits have a +4 on their climb, but I think it should be +3 = 1 (rank) + 3 (class skill) + 3 (strength) - 2 (chain shirt ACP) - 2 (heavy shield ACP). This could actually matter because the DC to climb up the rope in a single move action is 5.
I couldn't rationalize them dangling and climbing up with shields, so I assumed the shields were somehow slung (thus not imposing ACP). This required them to use actions to wield them, which in both of my runs they weren't able to take, as they had PCs in their faces right away.
Venture-Agent, Finland—Tampere
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Hey, as one of those two "newbies"(darn it, I have played for almost like two years by now :'D Sure I'm relatively newbie since a lot of you guys have played since from beginning, but still), I just find it really hard to play roleplay certain type of situations, like a merchant character talking about economy and politics when I have no understanding of economy whatsover and no deep knowledge of in setting politics :p
Anyhoo, still loved the scenario. Also finally it inspired me what I want to do with my wayang witch merchant(who I was kinda bored of because I had no clue what I wanted to do with him): Bought the vanity boon and going to give him level of Prophet of Calistrade later : D LN prestige class with goal to get rich as Scrooge and excuse to wear a lot of shiny expensive stuff to raise AC? Sounds hilarious enough that I have to do that. So yeah, thanks a lot for inspiration ;D Now to just figure out whether that prestige class forbids me from using touch spells.
(just to note, we actually got all bidders bid for their own areas and Passad bid for the docs. Then for hell of it, we got another bidder bid on the docks too so that Passad didn't get it :D)
Anyway, found the exchange's faction mission cool too. I wonder which one will be most popular trade partner overall. All of them are pretty cool, but I went with the one who took us to a "really cool location" so to speak.
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Hey, as one of those two "newbies"(darn it, I have played for almost like two years by now :'D Sure I'm relatively newbie since a lot of you guys have played since from beginning, but still), I just find it really hard to play roleplay certain type of situations, like a merchant character talking about economy and politics when I have no understanding of economy whatsover and no deep knowledge of in setting politics :p
Anyhoo, still loved the scenario. Also finally it inspired me what I want to do with my wayang witch merchant(who I was kinda bored of because I had no clue what I wanted to do with him): Bought the vanity boon and going to give him level of Prophet of Calistrade later : D LN prestige class with goal to get rich as Scrooge and excuse to wear a lot of shiny expensive stuff to raise AC? Sounds hilarious enough that I have to do that. So yeah, thanks a lot for inspiration ;D Now to just figure out whether that prestige class forbids me from using touch spells.
(just to note, we actually got all bidders bid for their own areas and Passad bid for the docs. Then for hell of it, we got another bidder bid on the docks too so that Passad didn't get it :D)
Anyway, found the exchange's faction mission cool too. I wonder which one will be most popular trade partner overall. All of them are pretty cool, but I went with the one who took us to a "really cool location" so to speak.
The Exchange character at my table really wanted to ally with that character, but didn't have the necessary skills to evaluate contracts and impress him. So she went with the Lady Councilor instead.
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Btw, I have posted a one page overview on the intrigue rules used... On PFS prep site.
The two tables (with not me as GM) seemed to think they were helpful.
After using this, my players and I found it very helpful.
I just have one edit to make in regards to the recognition phase.
As I see it, currently, there is a recognition phase where everyone can make a knowledge check on all the actors, and then the free knowledge pre-event at -5 on the check.
In the case of this event, the first party (Passad's) gives everyone a free discovery check, right?
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Have only played it, but ours was a cautionary table.
Between my cart-chaser, the monk with money to burn, and the asthmatic caster who decided it would be neat to impress one of the bidders with a summoned entity of... significant power... it was quite the experience.
Especially when said summoned entity made a determination about one of the bidders and it got really ugly.
Poor, poor Mister Explodeypants. We had such high hopes for him buying two areas, even.
WHUPS!
Suddenly it went from 'fun and games' to 'HFS, we're probably going to fail because we're down a bidder!'
We just *barely* pulled it off, and only because our two Exchange folks had a nice 'chat' with Passad and mentioned that if he didn't follow our suggestions, so kindly given, that 'Uncle G' would need to have a chat with him, in private, with certain... means... available.
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Wait, explodeypants? .-. Was that the guy's contingency for touching him or something? I mean, surely you don't mean you killed someone and weren't kicked out? xD
Much what Steven said above. It fell into the 'exceptional means' clause.
It wasn't a pretty sight and we were *very* lucky to not get kicked out, since it was very clear our intent was to impress NOT assassinate the bidders one-by-one
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As I see it, currently, there is a recognition phase where everyone can make a knowledge check on all the actors, and then the free knowledge pre-event at -5 on the check.
In the case of this event, the first party (Passad's) gives everyone a free discovery check, right?
Those are all correct statements. Recognition is immediate, then the pre-event discovery at -5 (and no Sense Motive) is for doing research that day. Passad's event is particularly designed as a meet & greet, hence the extra discovery check.
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I think I missed the extra checks for my crew. They still managed to pass, only because two party members left the table, bringing the four player adjustment into play. They completely ignored Temel because none of them liked him and they were low on actions due to flubbing a number of discovery/influence checks.
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My table handled the scenario without trouble. Five of the six people were at least a little bit good at social encounters, and most of them were more than a little bit good. A couple of them had lots of Knowledge, one of them was a social Monk (give him a few levels, he'll be a Vigilante). And, there was the Soverign Court character whose player said that this was exactly the sort of thing that the character really wanted to be doing all the time. It was a good party composition for this.
But. The player of the spiky dwarf was still engaged and involved. I didn't talk to him specifically about how much fun he had, but he stayed, and kept participating. (He's not as vocal as some other players at any table.) And, he was still doing things towards the end.
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I ran this over the weekend and enjoyed it. The table seemed to have fun as well. It was a party of three and a pre-gen Seelah. They succeeded at both success conditions, and the one Exchange character succeeded at winning over Cyran. I liked that despite not having four skill heavy characters, with good strategy, they were still able to succeed.
For the fight on the bridge, I decided to keep the map covered until after one of the characters decided to step onto the bridge. I think that kept them from going straight into combat prep mode. When I revealed the map I told everyone except the character who walked onto the bridge to set themselves up in a limited area on the side of the cliff.
Overall, I really enjoyed this scenario. We took about 4 1/2 hours, but that was partially due to the party being slow to defeat the bandits, and the players getting into the roleplaying (a very good reason to run long!).
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Venture-Agent, Finland—Tampere
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Yeah, everyone thought that she just had gotten promoted so intel was old .-.
Anyway, thats oddly specific head canon ._. Like, once we learned she was vigilante(after session) everyone just figured out she is evil Wonder Woman.
BTW, is it allowed for PFS gms to make that radical things like introducing familiar and using vigilante's unrevealed vigilante identity? .-. I thought there was rule that everything has tot be run as written
I'm bit confused about why players would consider fighting anyway regardless of situation. I mean, like, isn't it told to them that Druma has whole "scrying everyone all the time" thing going on so if they started fighting they would get jailed hard? Or was that info from knowledge check...
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It's told to them that it's a very bad idea to fight. The scenario then gives them very clear warnings that they need to stop (and some lasting penalties), and then they're completely screwed if they don't.
If they do, all of the mucky mucks (who could totally squash them, but don't want to get their clothes dirty) immediately withdraw, and the party has to fight town guards (which are all "at least 5th level", so in the scenario as written, the GM is allowed to bring in 10th level fighters) that specialize in Sundering. If they manage to defeat those and don't back down, another squad that strikes lethally comes in.
There's also the specific case of touching the elf guy whose name I forgot (Cyran? or is that the pope hat guy?). He's got a contingency that summons a CR15 outsider that warns the party to back off, and restrains them if they don't. Even an OP group of 5th level characters really shouldn't be able to handle this guy.
Basically, if the party (or any subset) insists on starting a fight, they receive a pretty clear in-game warning that this is a bad idea and they'd better back down right now. If they don't, they're at the very least paying 5PP for body recovery (to get out of prison), and maybe also money and/or prestige for raising. If they have that much.
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On the bridge scene, the map wasn't very clear, so I explained that they entered through the statue's ear and exited through his mouth. That made it more obvious that the archers were above them and not easy to get to, as they'd basically have to climb up a rope to get to the nose and then up to the eyes.
