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The clause you seem to be depending on (bolded)...
"If you have multiple Chronicle sheets from pregenerated characters, they are applied to your character’s Chronicle sheet stack in the order played when your character reaches the appropriate level, even if this would advance your character several levels."
...doesn't say that you can apply credit to a character that is too high of a level to have played the scenario. The general rule is that you can't apply a chronicle sheet to a character who couldn't legally play the scenario, and an 8th level character cannot play a 3-7 scenario. There is no specific exception to that general rule.
You've yet to provide any support for your view being correct or even a contender.Thomas, I also haven't seen any support for your view.
As written the Guide seems to be silent on how to handle a situation like this (where a held chronicle from playing a pregen can't be applied because the character levels out of the upper tier of the held chronicle).
Thank you Michael.
Thomas, I can't prove a negative. There is no language the explicitly says what I'm saying. Mainly because, until now apparently, it wasn't deemed necessary to explain how the rules interact. They don'the interact at all.
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The fact that John had to make specific exceptions for out of tier Shadow Lodge/Lantern Lodge characters to receive credit for Rivalry's End/Way of the Kirin credit leads me to say that no, you cannot apply held credit if your character has leveled out of the tier for that held credit.
The guide says to apply the rules with common sense. I do not believe it common sense to say 'I get to apply a 3-7 credit to my now 8th level character just because it says to apply them in order'.
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I really do remember a conversation about the language in the guide being specifically written to cover the instance in which a player accumulates too much GM/pregen credit.
And the resolution is you just keep applying the sheets in order even if you leveled out.
What else are you supposed to do with sheets other than apply them though?
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The fact that John had to make specific exceptions for out of tier Shadow Lodge/Lantern Lodge characters to receive credit for Rivalry's End/Way of the Kirin credit leads me to say that no, you cannot apply held credit if your character has leveled out of the tier for that held credit.
Those factions were retired, right?
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I really do remember a conversation about the language in the guide being specifically written to cover the instance in which a player accumulates too much GM/pregen credit.
And the resolution is you just keep applying the sheets in order even if you leveled out.
What else are you supposed to do with sheets other than apply them though?
Ideally you know what your characters have well enough that you know you wouldn't be able to apply that credit to that character to begin with, so you don't have to worry about applying it.
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Relevant text re: retired factions.
I have a Lantern Lodge character who is 8th level or higher. Shouldn't I have an opportunity to experience my faction's conclusion?
We are allowing GMs to do something special for these two scenarios. Anyone who GMs the scenario can apply the sheet to a character of level 8+ even though the character would not normally be eligible to receive credit. This Chronicle sheet includes the experience point, Prestige Points, items, and gold for Subtier-6–7.
Considering GMs needed special dispensation to apply chronicles to characters out of tier, what text can be found granting the same dispensation to pregen credit? The quoted text "even if this would advance your character several levels." does NOT grant this dispensation. It only says you apply them even if they advance multiple levels. Nothing in this case says 'even if your character is out of tier for the applied credit'.
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Andrew rather than coming up with language that fixes a nonexistent problem perhaps you should look at making all pregen credit above level 1 slow track and ineligible for any faction specific boon. retain the option to apply pregen credit in full to a level 1
OP if you can't make one of your 7-11 s slow track apply 3-7 credit to new character
Nosig do emerald spire on slow progression
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Ok so the chronicle has been recorded to a specific character. The GM has signed off on the chronicle. How can the character number now be changed? How will the report be correct on the website? Why do you want to cause so much extra work when the guide has already covered what is to happen.
There are TWO different actions happening here. One is before the adventure begins. The other is after the adventure has concluded. They are mutually exclusive and don't conflict with each other. There is nothing that I have seen, nor has anyone brought forward, that says that a character has to be legal to apply a chronicle, only to play the adventure.
The guild is clear in how to handle the chronicles for pregens.
I do hope that more clarity for this situation is being included in the season 8 guide because I would be pretty hot at a GM if they denied me playing a legal character.
I don't have any characters that fall into this situation however.
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Andrew rather than coming up with language that fixes a nonexistent problem perhaps you should look at making all pregen credit above level 1 slow track and ineligible for any faction specific boon. retain the option to apply pregen credit in full to a level 1
OP if you can't make one of your 7-11 s slow track apply 3-7 credit to new character
Nosig do emerald spire on slow progression
My mandate was more to clarify rather than create new policy.
Creating language to close loopholes or to bring it back to its original intent is part of clarification.
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My mandate was more to clarify rather than create new policy.So what has Campaign Leadership said about this because you would be making new policy in the eyes of many players.
Just because some players misinterpret things does not mean a clarification is new policy.
You'll find out what campaign leadership thinks on this if it gets adressed in the new guide. Right now I send what I feel is a
Clarification and let them sort out the details.
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That shadow lodge special is breaking the normal rule that you can only assign a pregen game to a character lower level than the pregen.
Thomas, I can't prove a negative. There is no language the explicitly says what I'm saying. Mainly because, until now apparently, it wasn't deemed necessary to explain how the rules interact. They don'the interact at all.
You can't prove a negative? But surely there must be some rule that implies what you're saying is correct.
Otherwise the rule is what the pregen credit says to do. Pick a lower leveled character and once that character reaches the level of the pregen apply the credit. If you have multiple apply them in order.Else you run into a problem with tiers. I have a char lv6. I play 3 3-7 scenarios with lv7 pregen. I play 9 scenarios 7-11. Now I'm applying lv7 low tier credit to an out of tier and high tier character. Seemingly this shouldn't be allowed either, as I'm applying credit in a way that I couldn't be if I had played my character. If you're okay allowing someone to apply that exp and gold from a tier that they couldn't have played in but were able to play because it's pregen credit, then that's the same answer as to why allow the pregen credit to apply the 3-7 that's being applied to a lv8 from pregen credit.
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Here's where you lose me in two ways. First, the character MUST be equal to the level of the pregen to get the credit applied (see earned and applied, at the end). Secondly, following this rule, I can't conjure a situation in which applying my pregen chronicles to a character would "...advance (my) character several levels." Based on this rule, as soon as a character hits level 8, they are done receiving pregen credit, and there is no combination of scenarios and modules that can take a character beyond 8 from 7.
The issue is not that you cannot apply the credit to a character higher than level 7, the issue is that you cannot assign credit to a character you could not legally play at the specified tier. For example, you could use a level 7 pregen to play 3 scenarios at 3-7, then play 6 scenarios at 5-9, and then play 6 more scenarios at 7-11. All credits would be assigned as having been played with a 7th level character and when the character to whom you assigned the credits actually reached level 7, you would apply them all and he or she would jump to level 12, at which point he would not be allowed to receive additional credits for standard scenarios.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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My mandate was more to clarify rather than create new policy.So what has Campaign Leadership said about this because you would be making new policy in the eyes of many players.Just because some players misinterpret things does not mean a clarification is new policy.
You'll find out what campaign leadership thinks on this if it gets adressed in the new guide. Right now I send what I feel is a
Clarification and let them sort out the details.
And that is the central point to this discussion. How the Guide is being interpreted, or misinterpreted, by the players. You feel that it is a misinterpretation, others (me included) believe we are interpreting the guide correctly when applying Chronicles.
So I guess either way Guide falls on this question, someone will think new policy is being defined. But at this discussion can serve as a point, counter-point to both sides of the question.
Thank you, be the way, for the work your are doing here. It is sometimes thankless and I believe your team working on the Season 8 Guide are doing so to make the campaign better.
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For example, you could use a level 7 pregen to play 3 scenarios at 3-7, then play 6 scenarios at 5-9, and then play 6 more scenarios at 7-11.Here's where you lose me in two ways. First, the character MUST be equal to the level of the pregen to get the credit applied (see earned and applied, at the end). Secondly, following this rule, I can't conjure a situation in which applying my pregen chronicles to a character would "...advance (my) character several levels." Based on this rule, as soon as a character hits level 8, they are done receiving pregen credit, and there is no combination of scenarios and modules that can take a character beyond 8 from 7.
If you can do this, why on earth does it matter what order those scenarios were played in?
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Considering GMs needed special dispensation to apply chronicles to characters out of tier, what text can be found granting the same dispensation to pregen credit?
The difference is between what level you are when the chronicle is assigned and when it applies.
If leafytree is level 8 no one is saying that you can apply the level 7 pregen for running the 3-7 Nuts in the tree. That was the exception that the faction farewells had.
But if leafytree is level 3, and winds up with a boatload of level 7 pregen credit (because you're the new guy and your venue is running a bunch of high level stuff) When you hit level 7 it all comes in as a dump, possibly pushing you past 8.
Option 1: It all comes online, no matter what level you wind up at. This is a possible interpretation under the current rules.
Cons: Can theoretically get you a level 30 character that can't afford shoes.
Pros: Its not really an "exploit" you WANT to wind up with so is self limiting.
Option 2: Illegal credit gets lost
Cons: player angry they played game they can't replay for nothing.
Pros: prevents exploit and encourages paying attention.
Option 3: Put it on a different character
Pro: Non angry player. No Level 30 character bumps.
Con: You can theoretically create "quantum credit" that the campaign is against for dms by "accidentally" building up illegal credit on a character and then parceling them off later. Would take a lot of doing though...
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If you can do this, why on earth does it matter what order those scenarios were played in?
Because there may well be unintended consequences to allowing someone to receive pregen credit for a scenario that their character would not be allowed to play.
Let's say a 3-7 scenario comes out and you think it would be great to get play credit assigned to an 8th level character. Do you think you should be allowed to play a 7th level pregen and assign credit to a character who could not get it directly? You played a legal character at the table, right? What is functional difference between this and assigning too many credits to a lower level character, other than intent? Is it possible for the rules to differentiate the intent?
As I mentioned earlier, if I were having to audit your character (which I would only do if you had already raised a red flag), scenario credits that were illegal for play would be disallowed and depending on the circumstances, I might have to ask you to leave the table, which would be regrettable.
I understand the point that someone applying credits for lower-tier scenarios is pretty much only hurting themselves in terms of their net worth, but my counter argument is, why would you want to do this? Obviously for some other benefit you receive from the Chronicle and if a regular player couldn't get that benefit on a character of the same level, neither should someone who used a pregen. Playing a pregen should not allow you to get around the rules that apply to everyone else. Just make sure you track your pending credits and assign the credit to a new character if it could not be legally assigned to an existing one.
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Agreed.
Before Kristen and I stepped down, she kept a log similar to this, though she used Excel and colored the cells instead of using letters.
Purple= Played
Green= GMed
Black= Both
Once Core was added, she just duplicated the lists of scenarios and started another section for that.
We don't do upkeep on it now that we've retired from VO service, but I think a couple other people here still use it. We've mostly moved over to the PFS Sessiontracker site that Auke advertised awhile back.
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If you can do this, why on earth does it matter what order those scenarios were played in?Because there may well be unintended consequences to allowing someone to receive pregen credit for a scenario that their character would not be allowed to play.
Let's say a 3-7 scenario comes out and you think it would be great to get play credit assigned to an 8th level character. Do you think you should be allowed to play a 7th level pregen and assign credit to a character who could not get it directly? You played a legal character at the table, right? What is functional difference between this and assigning too many credits to a lower level character, other than intent? Is it possible for the rules to differentiate the intent?
The functional difference is one is allowed and the other isn't. We have a rule that when you play a pregen you have to pick a character lower than the pregen to get credit, thus stopping you from playing a pregen and applying it to a lv8 character. The other is the rule that once you've assigned credit to your character from a pregen that when you hit the level of the pregen you get all the credits in the order played.
As I mentioned earlier, if I were having to audit your character (which I would only do if you had already raised a red flag), scenario credits that were illegal for play would be disallowed and depending on the circumstances, I might have to ask you to leave the table, which would be regrettable.
I understand the point that someone applying credits for lower-tier scenarios is pretty much only hurting themselves in terms of their net worth, but my counter argument is, why would you want to do this? Obviously for some other benefit you receive from the Chronicle and if a regular player couldn't get that benefit on a character of the same level, neither should someone who used a pregen. Playing a pregen should not allow you to get around the rules that apply to everyone else. Just make sure you track your pending credits and assign the credit to a new character if it could not be legally assigned to an existing one.
It doesn't let you get around the rules, anyone can play a pregen and assign the credits to a lower leveled character. You're applying your lv7 credit to your character once they hit lv7. The rules do not support you flagging my character as invalid since it is valid by the rules. If you made a deal out of it I'd track it up all the way to the top if need be to see you chastised for punishing a player that had a legal character you didn't agree with.
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Wasn't there some exception somewhere that you could play a pregen of = level if you had forgotten or lost the character? I could swear I had seen that.
I moved 5,000 miles with literally only what I could carry a few months back, and my character paperwork apparently didn't all make it.
I need to get a number changed if not.
You are always able to play a pregen. If you're playing a 3-7 and have a character lv3, one at lv4, one at lv5, one at lv6 and one at lv7 And you have all your characters with you, You can still decide to play a pregen for that scenario and apply it towards a character that is lower level than the pregen.
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I don't really see the harm of previously banked pregen credit all getting applied, even if some the chronicles get pushed out of tier. I would say that maybe the player should plan ahead a little better, but it doesn't seem like the end of the world, especially since they'll take a hit in gold for that chronicle since subtier 6-7 usually gives less gold (except for Bonekeep) than subtiers 8-9 or 7-8.
As far as I'm concerned, I would guve the person the choice of either applying the chronicle anyways and take the hit in gold or contacting the original GM and asking them to change the character number.
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Wasn't there some exception somewhere that you could play a pregen of = level if you had forgotten or lost the character? I could swear I had seen that.
I moved 5,000 miles with literally only what I could carry a few months back, and my character paperwork apparently didn't all make it.
I need to get a number changed if not.
The credit for playing the pregen HAS to go a 1st level character or a character of lower level than the pregen.
However, you CAN play (for example) a 7th level pregen even if you have a 7th level character. Just cause you have a character available in tier of the adventure doesn't mean you have to play it in that adventure.
As far as the character paperwork:
If you lost chronicles, try to get ahold of the GMs or your local VO (either where you moved from or to) and see if they can get you some replacements.
If you lost the character sheets themselves, your best bet is to recreate the character to the best of your ability, though you may want to talk to your local VOs, just to let them know that's what has happened.
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The functional difference is one is allowed and the other isn't. We have a rule that when you play a pregen you have to pick a character lower than the pregen to get credit, thus stopping you from playing a pregen and applying it to a lv8 character. The other is the rule that once you've assigned credit to your character from a pregen that when you hit the level of the pregen you get all the credits in the order played.
It appears that our difference of opinion is where the rule "You may not assign a Chronicle sheet earned with a pregenerated character to a character that was already at the level of the pregenerated character or higher." is applied. To me the Chronicle is "assigned" when you actually apply it to the character. It sounds like you think that they are assigned only at the time the scenario is played and that this rule is not followed when the Chronicle is actually applied to the character.
In regard to your threat to have me chastised for following my interpretation of the rule, I wish you luck with that because my Venture Officer is one of the ones who has said that your interpretation is incorrect. It may be possible that I would be over-ruled by someone higher up than him, but given that no senior campaign staff have chimed in yet, I have the feeling that this isn't high on their priority list.