Help with awkward character build...


Advice


Bard- Dervish Dancer: 1 level
Rogue: 4 levels for Uncanny Dodge and Evasion
Paladin: 2 levels for Divine Grace
Slayer: 1 level for high BAB and 2 good saves
Shadow Dancer: 3 levels for Summon Shadow, Improved Uncanny and Evasion
Duelist: 5 levels for BAB, Saves, but mostly for Canny Defense
Dragon Disciple: 4 levels for the +4 strength

Other than high saves and decent AC the goal is to flank the enemy with the character's shadow in melee.

So the help would come in for, increasing saves, increasing AC, and increasing the damage output while flanking with the shadow.

I was trying to consider grabbing a bunch of little abilities with a number of classes on a character, started with DD and SD, and let it roll from there, I like the idea of the character and how it would function with the Shadow, and am interested to see if the community could make it better at what it's doing.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Replace Dragon Disciple with 4 classes that give sneak attack at 1st level. +4d6 damage is better than +4 STR IMO


That would drop my bab, though. If you know of any classes with a +1 bab, +1d6 sneak attack on first level, though. Plus there is resistance and +3 natural armor with the DD


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Oxylepy wrote:
That would drop my bab, though. If you know of any classes with a +1 bab, +1d6 sneak attack on first level, though. Plus there is resistance and +3 natural armor with the DD

Snake Bite Brawler

And I do not see the benefit of Str When You Get Dex to damage


You're right. It still gives the +3 Natural Armor, though. So now to weigh if that's worth it.

Swapping Slayer with Snakebite Brawler, though.

Grand Lodge

The rule of Thumb when Multi-classing in PF is it tends to not be worth it unless your payoff is great. All those random classes (most of which are very weak) will not really pay off and you will be weaker than most characters of the same level. Sometimes so much so they will outshine you in just about every way.

Why is SA so Important? It is a very unreliable Damage sources in the game.

I recommend:

Player Brutality:

Destined Bloodrager 4/Paladin X VMC Order of the Stars Cav or Bard

Human

Trait: Fate's Favored
Optimistic Gambler

Feats:
1: Raging Vitality and Fey Foundling
5: Power Attack
9: Improved Critical- Falchion (cause Bless weapon lol)

First Mercy is Fatigued so you can stop your rage on your terms and not suffer fatigue. You could go with primalist for rage powers but the Destined +2 AC and Saves is very nice.

If you VMC Bard you get all the Bard toys and Performance.
If you VMC the Cav you get Challenge and the Level 7 ability is straight gold. By 8 HD you are back to full LoH progression.

Key Items:
Silver Smite Bracelets
+1 Furious Adamantine Falchion

Basically you will be tearing through most of everything. Evasion can be bought but What is taking half damage to a d10 HD build with Lay on Hands? Nothing really TBH.
Your not Gimped when things shut down SA. You do not require some Flank partner to get going on damage. Your BaB is at FULL. You have both Paladin and Bloodrager Lists to activate completion items.

Good Luck tho...its going to be rough raising a multi class character.


It's not necessary, but it would help with damage. As is the build ends up with like 16 BAB and 11/14/11 for saves, with Dex+Int+Armor+13 for AC, and a Cha bonus to saves. I thought about going for Monk, but realized I'd need like 18 in Wisdom to cope with the loss of light armor, which spreads my stats out even more.

As for multiclassing, I'd rather add MORE classes than less, which is part of what I'm going for. Bloodrager abilities only work during rage, which is problematic


You could take 4 levels of Druid with Shaping Focus by level 8. Wildshape into a humanoid medium air elemental wielding a scimitar for 3x8 hours per day, gaining +4DEX, +3AC natural armor, fly 60 feet (perfect) and Darkvision.

Dark Archive

The Raven Black wrote:
Replace Dragon Disciple with 4 classes that give sneak attack at 1st level. +4d6 damage is better than +4 STR IMO

Too much of a bab hit. High bab plus high chance to hit plus power attack outdamages sneak attack and still works on elementals, oozes, etc.


Badbird you have a really compelling argument, but it does forego armor, which is a hit to AC. It would also suggest I invest in Monk for the AC bonus, which would drop Bard. It may be worth it, but I really got to think on that one, as there is the bonus from dancing as a Dervish to my attacks and damage (of +1). So it's a trade off that I need to weigh, but Bard 1/DD 4 would be pretty nicely and almost evenly swapped with Monk 1/Druid 4. It would add more damage and what not too... Hrm.

Edit: Wait, what am I thinking, I'd lose Paladin if I did that, which is a 3+ hit to saves with only a +2-4 return


Oxylepy wrote:
Badbird you have a really compelling argument, but it does forego armor, which is a hit to AC.

You gain 5AC from dexterity and the natural armor bonus, which isn't going to be much of a loss if any compared to wearing some kind of light armor on a dex-based character.

Really though... is the point of this build to just go berserk with multiclassing for the sake of it? I like multiclassing, but I'll almost never go more than 2 classes + prestige. Throwing levels around loses out on significant features - for example, Swashbuckler Precise Strike and Weapon Training. On that build you have up-top, just continuing with Dawnflower Dervish Bard gets you +4 and eventually +6 Battle Dance along with Heroism and Allegro/Haste.


Your path leads to an unfocused character that won't be able to keep up with more focused optimized characters. I would suggest taking enough levels of one class to get a "full attack and move" option.

-barbarian or bloodrager pounce. beastmorph alchemist pounce
-magus force hook charge and spell combat
-animal companion with mounted skirmisher
-fighter dawnflower dervish
-medium champion

The most reliable way to get flanking is through an animal companion and pack flanking + horsemaster's saddle or another way to get your mount your teamwork feats (inquisitor solo tactics, hunter, or there's a feat in acg origins).

I would suggest something like:

Bloodrager(primalist/steelblood) 12 (familiar/fated bloodrager/lesser beast totem, beast totem/come and get me, greater beast totem)/Paladin (oath of vengeance) 4/Brawler (Snakebite Striker) 1/Fighter (Weapon Master) 3

That gives you 4 classes, 20BAB, 17/8/9 saves, pounce, some bloodrager spells, paladin smiting, 1d6 sneak attack, and weapon training.


If you are going to multiclass at least ask the DM if he allows for the unchained fractal bonuses.


What I do get out of extreme multiclassing is higher than normal saves, and the goal is also to pump up AC.

Also, with regards to the prior suggestion of Druid, I think I may actually do that as there is an anti-paladin which can be neutral without losing Unholy Resiliance, thus maintaining the saves while being neutral.

Please help with increasing saves/AC while maintaining the 3 levels of Shadow Dancer, which is a primary goal for the build


Oxylepy wrote:

Bard- Dervish Dancer: 1 level

Rogue: 4 levels for Uncanny Dodge and Evasion
Paladin: 2 levels for Divine Grace
Slayer: 1 level for high BAB and 2 good saves
Shadow Dancer: 3 levels for Summon Shadow, Improved Uncanny and Evasion
Duelist: 5 levels for BAB, Saves, but mostly for Canny Defense
Dragon Disciple: 4 levels for the +4 strength

Other than high saves and decent AC the goal is to flank the enemy with the character's shadow in melee.

So the help would come in for, increasing saves, increasing AC, and increasing the damage output while flanking with the shadow.

I was trying to consider grabbing a bunch of little abilities with a number of classes on a character, started with DD and SD, and let it roll from there, I like the idea of the character and how it would function with the Shadow, and am interested to see if the community could make it better at what it's doing.

That Shadowdancer causes a lot of feat tax, and the shadow isn't exactly surviveable at the level you get it - andit goes downhill from there.


In what way is it not survivable? Half damage from most every source gives it about your Hit Point, it should end up with solid saves depending on how the character is built (in this case all saves are essentially over full save bonus), and you can slap some ghost touch armor with no armor check penalty on it if you're feeling friskey. Honestly it should be half, if not three quarters as survivable as you are


Channelling, and smart opponents, will have no issues getting rid of the shadow. Losing it means a saving throw or you get a permanent negative level. And for that huge privilege you pay a 3-feat tax! No thank you.

Just consider how many ways you have at, say, level 8 or so to get rid of a shadow. Opponents will have similar means, if perhaps a level or two later. If the GM plays it smart, that shadow will die almost every session with any significant combat, since it's obvious that you depend on it for your combat efficiency (since it's your flanking buddy).

Have you considered basic things on a Hunter chassis? Teamwork feats and an animal companion isn't a bad start. You can dot he same, of course, as an Inquisitor.


Half Orc
Bloodrager 12 (Primal)/Paladin 4 (Oath of Vengeance) /Shadowdancer 3/Monk 1 (Unchained)

Initial Stats: STR17 DEX13 CON14 INT10 WIS10 CHA14
Final Stats: STR32 DEX20 CON20 INT16 WIS16 CHA26

Traits - Fate's Favored, Tusked

Feats - Improved Initiative (BR), Weapon Focus Nodachi (BR), Eschew Materials (BR), Intimidating Prowess (BR), Combat Reflexes (M), Power Attack, Shield Focus, Shield Brace, Cornugon Smash, Improved Critical, Dodge, Mobility, Hurtful, Raging Vitality, Lunge

Abilities: Familiar (Protector;+4 Initiative), Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, Blood Sanctuary, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Damage Reduction 2/-, Fated Bloodrager, Lesser Beast Totem, Beast Totem, Greater Beast Totem, Come and Get Me, Greater Bloodrage, Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 2/day, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands 10/day (can trade in 2 lay on hands for 1 smite evil), Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Mercy (fatigued), Hide in Plain Sight, Evasion, Shadow Illusion, Summon Shadow, Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter), Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike

AC: Mithral Breastplate+5 (11), Heavy Shield +5 (7+1 SF), Fated Bloodrager (+4 luck bonus), Beast Totem (+4 Natural Armor), Dexterity (5), Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (+1 Insight), Ring of Protection (+5 Deflection, or +8 from smite evil), Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (+5 enhancement bonus to natural armor), Rage (-2AC), Dodge (1), Familiar Bodyguard (2) = 52(55 when smite evil)(57 smite evil and familiar bodyguard)

Saves: Base (F15 R9 W9), Cloak of Resistance(+5), Fated Bloodrager (+4), Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone (+1), Stats(F5 R5 W3), Divine Grace (+8), Rage (F4 W3) = F42 R32 W33

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