Can you Stealth after attacking?


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They really need a blog on stealth, but its paizocon season, followed by paizo concrud seasons, followed by gencon season, followed by genconcrud season, followed by wabbitseason...


BigNorseWolf wrote:
They really need a blog on stealth, but its paizocon season, followed by paizo concrud seasons, followed by gencon season, followed by genconcrud season, followed by wabbitseason...

This is true.


ShieldLawrence wrote:

@Akkurscid The following from Ultimate Intrigue shows that a creature can stealth after attacking:

Perception and Stealth wrote:

Aware of Presence: The next state is when the perceiving creature is aware of the sneaking creature's presence, though not of anything beyond that. This is the state that happens when an invisible creature attacks someone and then successfully uses Stealth so the perceiving creature doesn't know where the attacker moved, or when a sniper succeeds at her Stealth check to snipe.

A perceiving creature that becomes aware of a hidden creature's presence will still be aware of its presence at least until the danger of the situation continues, if not longer (though memory-altering magic can change this).

The invisible creature attacks someone and then successfully uses stealth. He didn't wait a full round, it didn't happen on his next turn. He attacked and got out of sight and the target "doesn't know where the attacker moved."

You can stealth on the same round you made an attack as long as you can move.

To be fair, I read that to be, for instance, a naturally invisible creature, so one that doesn't lose its invisibility when attacking.

The defender is aware of the presence of an attacker, but never actually has sight of the attacker (because the attacker technically never loses its state of being invisible/using Stealth). Sniping, naturally invisible creatures, attackers with Greater Invisibility up, attacking a creature which doesn't have darkvision in darkness, etc.

Whether you think that difference is determinative or even particularly relevant can be debated. But it's a fair question whether attacking someone but never becoming visible is similarly situated to the more ordinary case of attacking someone, becoming visible, then trying to go effectively invisible again.


ShieldLawrence wrote:

@Akkurscid The following from Ultimate Intrigue shows that a creature can stealth after attacking:

Perception and Stealth wrote:

Aware of Presence: The next state is when the perceiving creature is aware of the sneaking creature's presence, though not of anything beyond that. This is the state that happens when an invisible creature attacks someone and then successfully uses Stealth so the perceiving creature doesn't know where the attacker moved, or when a sniper succeeds at her Stealth check to snipe.

A perceiving creature that becomes aware of a hidden creature's presence will still be aware of its presence at least until the danger of the situation continues, if not longer (though memory-altering magic can change this).

The invisible creature attacks someone and then successfully uses stealth. He didn't wait a full round, it didn't happen on his next turn. He attacked and got out of sight and the target "doesn't know where the attacker moved."

You can stealth on the same round you made an attack as long as you can move.

Excellent!

Question: Now how do you apply the -20 for being in combat, are you out of combat simply because you moved away? Invisible: moving DC=20 -20 combat DC=0. Moves at 1/2 speed -5. DC.+5.

The Concordance

Akkurscid wrote:
ShieldLawrence wrote:

@Akkurscid The following from Ultimate Intrigue shows that a creature can stealth after attacking:

Perception and Stealth wrote:

Aware of Presence: The next state is when the perceiving creature is aware of the sneaking creature's presence, though not of anything beyond that. This is the state that happens when an invisible creature attacks someone and then successfully uses Stealth so the perceiving creature doesn't know where the attacker moved, or when a sniper succeeds at her Stealth check to snipe.

A perceiving creature that becomes aware of a hidden creature's presence will still be aware of its presence at least until the danger of the situation continues, if not longer (though memory-altering magic can change this).

The invisible creature attacks someone and then successfully uses stealth. He didn't wait a full round, it didn't happen on his next turn. He attacked and got out of sight and the target "doesn't know where the attacker moved."

You can stealth on the same round you made an attack as long as you can move.

Excellent!

Question: Now how do you apply the -20 for being in combat, are you out of combat simply because you moved away? Invisible: moving DC=20 -20 combat DC=0. Moves at 1/2 speed -5. DC.+5.

Its an opposed Perception vs. Stealth Check to notice the location of the creature. You just select one "Detail" from the table as your base DC, in this case its the "Notice a Creature Using Stealth." You aren't selecting the "Hear the Sound of Battle" so that DC doesn't come into play at all.

Effectively, the Stealth roll is setting the DC for the perception check, and all perception DC modifiers get added to that DC (the stealth roll) at the end.

If the creature is moving fast, they will take the penalty on their stealth roll as per the Stealth entry.

So basically:
Perception: D20 + skill modifiers(ranks, class skill, items, etc.)
VS.
Stealth: D20 + skill modifiers(including stealthing fast) + Perception DC modifiers(distracted, distance, etc.)


ShieldLawrence wrote:


Effectively, the Stealth roll is setting the DC for the perception check, and all perception DC modifiers get added to that DC (the stealth roll) at the end.

If the creature is moving fast, they will take the penalty on their stealth roll as per the Stealth entry.

So basically:
Perception: D20 + skill modifiers(ranks, class skill, items, etc.)
VS.
Stealth: D20 + skill modifiers(including stealthing fast) +...

No sorry it's for the stealth check/roll availabilty while observed for the attacker.

Example: Invisible guy is "observed" because he attacked with melee and if he moves up to 30' away he is still likely being "observed" on a DC=0 vs. just passive perception. (+20invisible/-20combat) Question is when is he out of combat.

Should note: Topic still needs a FAQ because invisible creature attacks someone and then successfully uses Stealth so the perceiving creature doesn't know where the attacker moved, doesn't say if this sequence happened during the same round or on subsequent rounds.


Quintain wrote:
Matt2VK wrote:

"It is impossible to Stealth while attacking, running, or charging."

Is a very important sentence. The issue is, when does the attacking action end?

Does it end after you take a Standard action to attack or are you considered attacking for the whole round?

That question is not defined and opened to interpretation.

I don't know the answer and I can read it either way. At moment, I'm leaning to, if you attack, you're considered as attacking for the whole round. This is more due to the Sniping Rule and other abilities that allow stealthing while attacking as specific rules that trump normal stealth rules.

Your attack ends after you roll the dice and do damage. There is no "in combat state" for pathfinder that prevents stealth.

You can take a 5' step after taking all your attacks in a full attack, and since stealth is a part of movement, you can stealth using that 5' step.

If you could show me a rule that suggests that "your attack ends after you roll the dice and do damage", I'd appreciate it because the rules for full round actions clearly state that they last for the entirety of a round: "When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round."

I don't see any rules to support the idea that you're not attacking for the full duration of your full attack action.


The -20 is actually 'in combat or speaking'


MeanMutton wrote:


If you could show me a rule that suggests that "your attack ends after you roll the dice and do damage", I'd appreciate it because the rules for full round actions clearly state that they last for the entirety of a round: "When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round."

I don't see any rules to support the idea that you're not attacking for the full duration of your full attack action.

Movement in Combat wrote:
If you do something that requires a full round, you can only take a 5-foot step.

Explict permission to take a 5' step in conjunction with a full round action (full attack is a full round action).

Take 5' Step wrote:
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

Rules defining the available timing options for taking a 5' step. AFTER other actions is explicitly permitted.


Snowlilly wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:


If you could show me a rule that suggests that "your attack ends after you roll the dice and do damage", I'd appreciate it because the rules for full round actions clearly state that they last for the entirety of a round: "When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round."

I don't see any rules to support the idea that you're not attacking for the full duration of your full attack action.

Movement in Combat wrote:
If you do something that requires a full round, you can only take a 5-foot step.

Explict permission to take a 5' step in conjunction with a full round action (full attack is a full round action).

Take 5' Step wrote:
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
Rules defining the available timing options for taking a 5' step. AFTER other actions is explicitly permitted.

Yes, the 5' step can occur after your full-attack action. That would occur immediately before the same initiative count in the next round based on the description of how long a full-round action takes.


Which you do at the end of your turn since you can only perform actions, like the 5ft step, on your turn in initiative. So regardless of "when it happens" the result of it is that you're stealthed during everyone else's turns.


Quote:


Question is when is he out of combat.

There is no "out of combat" or "in combat" for stealth. These are terms from MMOs.

There is attacking and not attacking.

They are not the same thing.

While you are attacking (aka resolving your attack), you break stealth, revealing yourself to everyone. Once the attack is resolved, you are no longer attacking. At this point, you can take whatever movement is available to you and use that movement to hide via stealth provided you satisfy the conditions for being hidden.


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MeanMutton wrote:

If you could show me a rule that suggests that "your attack ends after you roll the dice and do damage", I'd appreciate it because the rules for full round actions clearly state that they last for the entirety of a round: "When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round."

I don't see any rules to support the idea that you're not attacking for the full duration of your full attack action.

From the prd:

Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)

An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round.

Attempting to strike your opponent is attacking. When you are not rolling your dice to attack your opponent, you are not attacking.


Quintain wrote:
Quote:


Question is when is he out of combat.

There is no "out of combat" or "in combat" for stealth. These are terms from MMOs.

There is attacking and not attacking.

They are not the same thing.

While you are attacking (aka resolving your attack), you break stealth, revealing yourself to everyone. Once the attack is resolved, you are no longer attacking. At this point, you can take whatever movement is available to you and use that movement to hide via stealth provided you satisfy the conditions for being hidden.

You are -20 if you are in combat this is what it says on the Invisibility table You are saying basically everything on this table is never applied... because they never effect anything that happens "After" your turn is over.
PS I am saying combat is abstract, and not linear, you are the one saying it is like an very linear... just like an MMO.


Quote:


PS I am saying combat is abstract, and not linear, you are the one saying it is like an very linear... just like an MMO.

No. You are trying to force simultaneity into a turn based system.

In combat insofar as the table is concerned is a description, not a definition of a state. It means they are making noise.

You do not break stealth unless you are attacking. Which means that others can automatically observe you.

In combat for the invisibility table is the perception dc modifier should the invisible creature attack and still be able to remain invisible. This normally only applies when someone is using greater invisibility, or is naturally invisible and attacking.

Once they are done attacking, they are no longer "in combat" per the invisibility table.

Invisibility and stealth are not perfectly synonymous. Stealth by itself, even if you are hidden is not invisibility -- you are simply hiding. See invisible doesn't help against someone that is hiding.

You cannot use stealth while attacking, which means that if you are invisible and attacking (using natural/greater invisibility), you cannot roll a stealth check to remain hidden. They are contradictory.

However, once your attacks are resolved, and if you have not moved your 5' step, you are able to use that movement to make a stealth skill roll and gain that skill modifier to the Opposed DC vs anyone's perception check.

All of this happens on the stealth-creature's turn. At no point in time does this extend past that creature's turn. If you want to have people respond to attackers that are hidden or invisible, have them use immediate and readied actions. That's what they are for.

Addendum:

A natural/greater invisible creature attacking, would have a +0 to their "stealth DC", but would not be able to roll a die to actively use stealth while making their attacks. This gives opponents an opportunity to react via immediate/readied actions. -- Note, this is applying the -20 modifier on the table to the +20 modifier that invisibility normally gives, which then you add the skill modifier of the creature to set the DC. -- No stealth roll is allowed.

After the attacks are resolved, the creature gets a 5' step, loses the -20 modifier for "attacking/in combat" and gains the ability to use his stealth skill by rolling a die to set the DC for any actions after his turn is done, until the next round. Note -- this is the modifier for using stealth skill on the invisibility table. You also use the +1 / 10' distance modifiers as well as all the other situational modifiers if they apply.


CBDunkerson wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:
Regardless, none of that changes the fact that if you are actually standing behind that pillar, you get to make a stealth check, even if someone watched you walk over there.

Eh?

Stealth is movement. Why would you walk behind a pillar observed and THEN make a stealth check? What possible benefit would doing so provide?

You fail the check: They know you are behind the pillar, walk over, see you, and attack.
You make the check: They know you are behind the pillar, walk over, see you, and attack.

Stealth checks are made to move somewhere without being seen to do so.

If you could create a distraction to hide, Hide in Plain Sight, or otherwise get stealth on your movement then you could go behind the pillar and they would NOT know that you are there (though they might well guess if it was the only hiding place in the area).

Likewise, a stealth check to move AWAY from the pillar would make sense... they knew you were behind the pillar, but not where you went after that if you stealthed away successfully.

However, 'stealthing' while standing behind a pillar that you were observed to hide behind accomplishes exactly nothing.

The people that believe this, don't understand stealth. There are great possible benefits from this action.

One example is that the person you are stealthing from can't get to you in one round. They may not be able to move at all. But by stealthing, you are no longer a valid target. Therefore the Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, or Power Word Kill can't target you.

If there are other people on your side, they might still be fighting the person you are stealthing from. That could be another reason why your enemy cannot get to you. But on the next round you could break the stealth and deliver a sneak attack.

There are a million reasons why stealth could be useful even if your enemy still knows where you are.


Quote:
No. You are trying to force simultaneity into a turn based system.

No you are trying to force a strict turn based system onto an abstract simultaneous one. lol

Quote:
In combat for the invisibility table is the perception dc modifier should the invisible creature attack and still be able to remain invisible
in your interpretation no one can take advantage of this.
Quote:
Once they are done attacking, they are no longer "in combat" per the invisibility table.
This is one opinion... Of course no one can take advantage of any of these penalties because they all end with the end of the invisible one's turn.
Quote:
Invisibility and stealth are not perfectly synonymous. Stealth by itself, even if you are hidden is not invisibility -- you are simply hiding. See invisible doesn't help against someone that is hiding.
We agree here.
Quote:
You cannot use stealth while attacking, which means that if you are invisible and attacking (using natural/greater invisibility), you cannot roll a stealth check to remain hidden. They are contradictory.

Except you just said it doesn't matter because you can renter stealth at the end of your turn on move. Which changes invisibility guys stealth check to locate to DC 20+stealth+roll.

Oh well in short you haven't convinced me. If I play at your table I will abide by your rules...

Cheers!!


Quote:


No you are trying to force a strict turn based system onto an abstract simultaneous one. lol

All the uses of the word "turn" in the combat system notwithstanding.

Quote:


Except you just said it doesn't matter because you can renter stealth at the end of your turn on move. Which changes invisibility guys stealth check to locate to DC 20+stealth+roll.

It does matter, because immediate and readied actions can trigger off the attacks made by the invisible creature that is attacking. It is these responses that use the reduced, non-stealth-skill-modified perception DC of the invisible creature.

If someone is already invisible, "being able to use stealth" means the ability to roll a die and use their stealth skill to modify that die result, and then add the modifiers invisibility provides.

You don't *have* to use stealth while invisible. As a matter of fact, that is exactly what not being able to use stealth while attacking means. If you run while invisible, you still get the invisibility modifier, but can't roll a stealth check.

Invisibility is not dependent upon the stealth skill check.

If you don't use the stealth skill while invisible, all the invisibility modifiers still apply to the perception DC needed to be able to see you. Using stealth while invisible just helps, a lot.

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