Immediate Actions


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Scarab Sages

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Ferious thrune wrote:
I don't see much of a difference, and here's why. Games are not GM'd by computers.

"I want to cast EFS." "Too late, I already asked for your saving throw. You have to do that before I ask for your saving throw." "But..."

Nope.

I don't see much of a difference, and here's why. Games are not GM'd by computers. A GM is less likely to run down a series of steps every time a spell is cast. They are more likely to say something like, "He casts a spell, give me a Will save." "Wait, can I spellcraft that?" "Oh, yeah, sure. It's Phantasmal Killer." "I want to cast EFS."

"Too late, I already asked for your saving throw.

Ok Jim, Leafytree is off the hook. BOB! Will save for Bitey!

You have to remember there's two (or possibly three) schools of why EFS isn't able to block Phantasmal Killer and waste the other guys spell.

1) Is that immediate actions can't interrupt things at all. I don't hold to this.

2) Is that it can block things, but it does so in linear time. I'm not the one breaking down steps here. You're insisting that those steps exist to wedge the shield in between. The less those steps exist the less places there are to put the shield in.

Yeah, I think we cross-posted. I understand this better now that I found the rule you were referencing.


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Ragoz wrote:
Like King said it isn't a problem with the rules if the GM is being pushy asking for a save before anything happens. I never do this when I run games at all and people always spellcraft when they can. I just say "They begin casting a spell".

I just go with the will save and will rewind time (as above) as need be. Rewinding time is harder but much rarer, and less of a hastle than asking if someone wants to do something EVERY time.

Scarab Sages

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Ragoz wrote:
Like King said it isn't a problem with the rules if the GM is being pushy asking for a save before anything happens. I never do this when I run games at all and people always spellcraft when they can. I just say "They begin casting a spell".
I just go with the will save and will rewind time (as above) as need be. Rewinding time is harder but much rarer, and less of a hastle than asking if someone wants to do something EVERY time.

This has been my experience. I do try to remember to say "He's casting a spell," but I don't usually take a dramatic pause to see if anyone does something. I might take such a pause and ask if it's going to be a particularly nasty spell.

It's also fair to point out that it goes both directions. Players also will often skip steps in the interest of speeding things up, and the GM may have to make them backtrack if the enemy has some defense they are unaware of.


James Risner wrote:
Ragoz wrote:
Spells which do not have a separate event like rays do not have an additional opportunity afterward to cast EFS and still be protected because the effect and targeting have occurred.

This isn't satisfactorily settled in the rules for some, so please click the FAQ on this post.

I think that's a poor candidate for the FAQ resolving this issue.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Everyone keeps saying it is poor candidate, come up with a better one please.

The candidate must:

  • Be in a hard cover book so the PDT can FAQ it.
  • Must not have time restrictions embedded like "before x" or "after y".
  • Must be able to negate the attack if the difference changed the outcome.

The Exchange

How about the spell Stone Shield? It uses advanced race guide as a source and provides a reflex save bonus as well as AC bonus. It might be a better candidate for a FAQ question.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Stone Shield is pretty good, we cross-posted.

It is in a hard cover, it is immediate action, with little to no hints to timing, and could negate the attack.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

33 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

FAQ:

When exactly can I cast Stone Shield?

Stone Shield
Casting Time 1 immediate action
A 1-inch-thick slab of stone springs up from the ground, interposing itself between you and an opponent of your choice. The stone shield provides you with cover from that enemy until the beginning of your next turn, granting you a +4 bonus to Armor Class and a +2 bonus on Reflex saving throws. If the opponent’s attack misses you by 4 or less, the attack strikes the shield instead.

Can it be after hit but before damage to negate the hit?

Spoiler:

The same issue comes up in other spells and effects like Arcane Shield and Emergency Force Sphere.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Ok, a new an improved question for this issue:

Please click FAQ here


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

I can't say I see where the confusion is coming from. Without verbiage restricting when you can cast something, you can cast immediate spells any time.

So yes, stone shield can happen between hit and declaration of damage.

Let's me sensible here. Hypothetical:

emergency ablation
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Description: you acquire DR5/- that applies to the first instance wherein you take normal hitpoint damage before your next turn.

Such a spell is reasonable, yes? Flavorful, yes? Its intent is clear and its scope is tight. You're trying to reduce a single "ouchie".

What sadistic DM would say that the caster has to cast his spell before his attacker attacks? Or before his attacker decides who he's trying to hit? Or before his attacker successfully hits?

No. It's obvious - and fair - that this spell can be cast the moment the DM says "oh, wow, the ogre smacks you in the head with his greatclub".

The ogre doesn't get to say "oh, hey, wait, I wouldn't've hit this guy since he's got emergency ablation cast."

As far as I can tells, efs can be cast any time, and yes, that may screw the person attacking the caster of efs. Before an attack is declared? Sure. After? Sure. Once a spell is cast? Sure. Once a target is selected? Sure. Once a ray strikes? Well, sure, but it's not going to help you because the act you're trying to prevent (getting struck by something) has already happened. You take damage from the ray.

It's actually not dissimilar from the one James referenced that adds a shield bonus to AC. Yes, sure, cast it after the hit is declared but before damage is declared. I - as the DM - don't care. It's TOO LATE to be useful, but you're welcome to cast it.

As for table manners, as interrupt abilities start coming on line, it's up the player and DM to work together to make sure the cadence of actions is clear to allow their use.

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Anguish wrote:
As far as I can tells, efs can be cast any time, and yes, that may screw the person attacking the caster of efs. Before an attack is declared? Sure. After? Sure. Once a spell is cast? Sure. Once a target is selected? Sure. Once a ray strikes? Well, sure, but it's not going to help you because the act you're trying to prevent (getting struck by something) has already happened. You take damage from the ray.

And what about spells that are not rays, but targeted effects?

CRB wrote:
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

Once the target is selected, the effect has already occurred. Casting after the target is selected won't help you much as the effect has alfeady "struck."


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Anguish wrote:
As far as I can tells, efs can be cast any time, and yes, that may screw the person attacking the caster of efs. Before an attack is declared? Sure. After? Sure. Once a spell is cast? Sure. Once a target is selected? Sure. Once a ray strikes? Well, sure, but it's not going to help you because the act you're trying to prevent (getting struck by something) has already happened. You take damage from the ray.

And what about spells that are not rays, but targeted effects?

CRB wrote:
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
Once the target is selected, the effect has already occurred. Casting after the target is selected won't help you much as the effect has alfeady "struck."

This is the assertion that keeps being made (by many) that many others (myself included) fundamentally disagree with.

I will concede that it's a reasonable interpretion of the rules. My group of players and I interpret it the other way; that you can respond to a target being chosen, prior to die rolls being made/revealed. That there is, in fact, a moment that occurs - a span of in-game time - between the target being chosen and the effect resolving.

The effect *occurs* (a ray appears, a fireball zooms towards it's target area, a Power Word echoes through the room, an acid arrow zips through the air, a blade barrier springs into existence, etc), then the effect *resolves* - and in our opinion, there is a span of time between the effect occurring and the effect resolving.

I can agree that we don't agree on this, that we will not sway the other, and that the opposite position is a valid interpretation.


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James Risner wrote:

Everyone keeps saying it is poor candidate, come up with a better one please.

The candidate must:

  • Be in a hard cover book so the PDT can FAQ it.
  • Must not have time restrictions embedded like "before x" or "after y".
  • Must be able to negate the attack if the difference changed the outcome.

To me, the thrust of the question is:

When spellcasting, is there a period of time between a target being chosen and the spell's effects coming into being? Is there a period of time between the spell effects coming into being and the effect resolving? Does this vary from spell to spell?

The suggested FAQ doesn't address any of those issues, really. It's addressing an issue that I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with - that there's no period of time between an attack landing and the damage being dealt.

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Gulthor wrote:
CRB wrote:
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

This is the assertion that keeps being made (by many) that many others (myself included) fundamentally disagree with.

I will concede that it's a reasonable interpretion of the rules. My group of players and I interpret it the other way; that you can respond to a target being chosen, prior to die rolls being made/revealed. That there is, in fact, a moment that occurs - a span of in-game time - between the target being chosen and the effect resolving.

The effect *occurs* (a ray appears, a fireball zooms towards it's target area, a Power Word echoes through the room, an acid arrow zips through the air, a blade barrier springs into existence, etc), then the effect *resolves* - and in our opinion, there is a span of time between the effect occurring and the effect resolving.

I can agree that we don't agree on this, that we will not sway the other, and that the opposite position is a valid interpretation.

I understand that many spells include an effect such as a ray, fireball, arrow, or missile. And I agree that those can be interrupted before they "resolve."

I don't think there are anime rays involved in targeting spells such as hold person and dominate. Those spells do not have attack rolls. They "resolve" when the target rolls a save.

Do you think the target can be identified before the effect resolves for spells such as hold person?


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Do you think the target can be identified before the effect resolves for spells such as hold person?

I have been thinking about this intensely since the EFS discussion started. I don't believe there are any specific rules for that.

Table variation ruling: Sense Motive seems to make sense here. That means, however, that certain characters could brutally screw with people by having high Bluff.


Casting a spell only when a +4 ac would make someone miss is VASTLY more powerful than casting a spell for +4 AC. Most spells go out of their way to reinforce the idea that you have to do the later.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Do you think the target can be identified before the effect resolves for spells such as hold person?

Yep, that's exactly what I think - that there's a moment between occurrence and resolution where the target is declared and can be identified, just as there's a moment between declaring the target of a melee (or ranged) attack and making the attack

Perhaps it's too many years of MtG and D&D4E.

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Gulthor wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Do you think the target can be identified before the effect resolves for spells such as hold person?

Yep, that's exactly what I think - that there's a moment between occurrence and resolution where the target is declared and can be identified, just as there's a moment between declaring the target of a melee (or ranged) attack and making the attack

Perhaps it's too many years of MtG and D&D4E.

I don't think that jives with the Core Rulebook. But, I definitely get how MtG and 4E can influence how you understand the rules.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

MeanMutton wrote:
pretty sure everyone agrees with - that there's no period of time between an attack landing and the damage being dealt.

Actually we all don't agree and I think this is the root difference of opinion. I don't agree for example.

The Exchange

Gulthor wrote:
Perhaps it's too many years of MtG and D&D4E.

In this game we use the same rules you do for the card Turnabout.

Turnabout wrote:
10/4/2004 You decide on resolution if you are tapping or untapping, and which kind of permanent you are affecting.

The spell has happened and as it happened choose the range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth. You can no longer respond to the card it resolved.


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James Risner wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
pretty sure everyone agrees with - that there's no period of time between an attack landing and the damage being dealt.
Actually we all don't agree and I think this is the root difference of opinion. I don't agree for example.

I don´t agree either and there´s several abilities in the game making use of that "time" between attack and damage.

While there is time in the game, we are talking action economy and possible ingame actions here, which are not really related to time, but abstract concepts.
Immediate comes from immediately...


James Risner wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
pretty sure everyone agrees with - that there's no period of time between an attack landing and the damage being dealt.
Actually we all don't agree and I think this is the root difference of opinion. I don't agree for example.

You think that they're time between an attack landing and damage being dealt? What causes you to believe that?


MeanMutton wrote:
James Risner wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
pretty sure everyone agrees with - that there's no period of time between an attack landing and the damage being dealt.
Actually we all don't agree and I think this is the root difference of opinion. I don't agree for example.
You think that they're time between an attack landing and damage being dealt? What causes you to believe that?

I've got this arrow sticking out of my eye. Fortunately there is still time to do something about it....

More seriously though:
Both crane wing and deflect arrows do separate the attack and damage, but I'd call that an exception based on the specific rules of those feats rather than a standard rule. Also note that both explicitly state they change what would normally be a hit into a miss, not that it is a hit that then does no damage. This means riders on those hits can't trigger, but effects based off of a miss would trigger.


Keep in mind that the game is made for humans too. Lots of things happen while the player is roling dice. With targeted spells, that period of die rolling isn't there.


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bbangerter wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
James Risner wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
pretty sure everyone agrees with - that there's no period of time between an attack landing and the damage being dealt.
Actually we all don't agree and I think this is the root difference of opinion. I don't agree for example.
You think that they're time between an attack landing and damage being dealt? What causes you to believe that?

I've got this arrow sticking out of my eye. Fortunately there is still time to do something about it....

More seriously though:
Both crane wing and deflect arrows do separate the attack and damage, but I'd call that an exception based on the specific rules of those feats rather than a standard rule. Also note that both explicitly state they change what would normally be a hit into a miss, not that it is a hit that then does no damage. This means riders on those hits can't trigger, but effects based off of a miss would trigger.

After reading those feats and the associated FAQs, I feel driven to drink.


bbangerter wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
James Risner wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
pretty sure everyone agrees with - that there's no period of time between an attack landing and the damage being dealt.
Actually we all don't agree and I think this is the root difference of opinion. I don't agree for example.
You think that they're time between an attack landing and damage being dealt? What causes you to believe that?

I've got this arrow sticking out of my eye. Fortunately there is still time to do something about it....

More seriously though:
Both crane wing and deflect arrows do separate the attack and damage, but I'd call that an exception based on the specific rules of those feats rather than a standard rule. Also note that both explicitly state they change what would normally be a hit into a miss, not that it is a hit that then does no damage. This means riders on those hits can't trigger, but effects based off of a miss would trigger.

The FAQs associated with them make such a mess. It's not a hit, it's not a miss. It's just... Nothing? Gah.


Gulthor wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Do you think the target can be identified before the effect resolves for spells such as hold person?

Yep, that's exactly what I think - that there's a moment between occurrence and resolution where the target is declared and can be identified, just as there's a moment between declaring the target of a melee (or ranged) attack and making the attack

Perhaps it's too many years of MtG and D&D4E.

I think so. The target being identified has no evidence, and time in between goes against the evidence we have.


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There cannot be a broad-based FAQ on immediate actions because the timing of the actions depend of the specific nature of the immediate action.


Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
There cannot be a broad-based FAQ on immediate actions because the timing of the actions depend of the specific nature of the immediate action.

We just need a FAQ to define what "at any time" means...


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Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
There cannot be a broad-based FAQ on immediate actions because the timing of the actions depend of the specific nature of the immediate action.

So, I'd agree with that if there weren't occasional instances of spells cast as immediate actions that don't have specific trigger conditions. As graystone said, "at any time" is the sticking point here.


Serisan wrote:
Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
There cannot be a broad-based FAQ on immediate actions because the timing of the actions depend of the specific nature of the immediate action.
So, I'd agree with that if there weren't occasional instances of spells cast as immediate actions that don't have specific trigger conditions. As graystone said, "at any time" is the sticking point here.

There is no time at which you have been targeted but the spell can't hit you on a targeted spell.

Before he's finished casting the spell is a time: he switches targets

After he is finished casting the spell is a time: Its too late.

After he's finished casting the spell but before you're affected is not a time.


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KingOfAnything wrote:

And what about spells that are not rays, but targeted effects?

CRB wrote:
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
Once the target is selected, the effect has already occurred. Casting after the target is selected won't help you much as the effect has alfeady "struck."

It's only a problem if you make it a problem. Like my imaginary emergency ablation spell, sure, the attack has come into effect. That doesn't mean that damage has been dealt. I'm not playing the "there's time between" card. I'm playing the "any time is any time" card.

Imagine "once per day as an immediate action you gain the improved evasion ability". Or even "once per day as an immediate action you can reroll a failed saving throw". Spells have taken effect; they are erupting around you, or boring into your mind or... whatever. But if you have an ability that is defensive, and it's an immediate action to use that ability, it's any time.

Obviously you can't use it the following day to undo events that are resolved, but it's absolutely appropriate to prevent Bad Things that are in the process of happening right bloody now.

feather fall remains a great example of this. Falling normally just happens, without consuming time. Yet there exists this spell, which exists specifically to allow you to not suffer the negative consequences of falling.

So yes, emergency force sphere away as the fireball engulfs you. Just do it before the damage is dealt. Maybe during that interesting period of time when you're - by RAW - dodging and weaving within it, and making your Reflex save. Turns out you have something better than a Reflex save... you have an immediate action.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Serisan wrote:
Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
There cannot be a broad-based FAQ on immediate actions because the timing of the actions depend of the specific nature of the immediate action.
So, I'd agree with that if there weren't occasional instances of spells cast as immediate actions that don't have specific trigger conditions. As graystone said, "at any time" is the sticking point here.

There is no time at which you have been targeted but the spell can't hit you on a targeted spell.

Before he's finished casting the spell is a time: he switches targets

After he is finished casting the spell is a time: Its too late.

After he's finished casting the spell but before you're affected is not a time.

My inclination has been to agree with this analysis.


Threads like this make mountains out of molehills.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
After he's finished casting the spell but before you're affected is not a time.

There HAS to be time there, or the caster wouldn't be able to change the variables of the spell "(range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth)". He has to finish the spell, "comes into effect", before he does that. What's the time between effect and picking a version? Picking a target? Picking a target and the next target? Between than and picking an effect... I may only be an instant but it's a moment in time. If the caster has picked a target and is picking another, how is there not an opening there for an action?

Or, once again, define what "at any time" means...


Yeah, "at any time" is also going to be contextual. While it's different words, the context will end up mattering. I honestly think this is one of those things a GM just needs to iron out with players regarding certain spells (stone shield, efs), because at any time quite literally means whenever you want. So an FAQ about a particular spell might help, but unless they are going to FAQ a bunch of different spells I think this is a quixotic endeavor.

(I think feather fall is a good spell, but I was disappointed to see a bunch of new immediate action spells published in the last few years. It is just not an action type that fits will in the action abstraction of the PF universe. The best thing would be is if all immediate action spells actually articulated the exact moment they can be used. Maybe they have... at any time).

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graystone wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
After he's finished casting the spell but before you're affected is not a time.

There HAS to be time there, or the caster wouldn't be able to change the variables of the spell "(range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth)". He has to finish the spell, "comes into effect", before he does that. What's the time between effect and picking a version? Picking a target? Picking a target and the next target? Between than and picking an effect... I may only be an instant but it's a moment in time. If the caster has picked a target and is picking another, how is there not an opening there for an action?

Or, once again, define what "at any time" means...

Where does it say those choices have to be before casting ends at all? What is the time between those things? None. They all happen simultaneously. You don't pick one, then another, you pick them all at once.

At any time means "at any time." You just keep making up times that don't have rules support.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Serisan wrote:
Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
There cannot be a broad-based FAQ on immediate actions because the timing of the actions depend of the specific nature of the immediate action.
So, I'd agree with that if there weren't occasional instances of spells cast as immediate actions that don't have specific trigger conditions. As graystone said, "at any time" is the sticking point here.

There is no time at which you have been targeted but the spell can't hit you on a targeted spell.

Before he's finished casting the spell is a time: he switches targets

After he is finished casting the spell is a time: Its too late.

After he's finished casting the spell but before you're affected is not a time.

For some spells, there clearly is time between these - fireball, for instance, clearly and unambiguously has time between the spell being targeted and the target being affected.


Brother Fen wrote:
Threads like this make mountains out of molehills.

I've found this thread to be very helpful, particularly in focusing my thoughts about a spell that is causing incredible disruption in the campaign that I'm GMing.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Where does it say those choices have to be before casting ends at all?

No, they have to be done AFTER. It has to come into effect for you to pick variables.

KingOfAnything wrote:
You just keep making up times that don't have rules support.

No, I'm pointing out undefined parts of the rules. If there is time for the caster to make several choices in the spell, it sounds a lot like the time in "any time" from the immediate action type. That's the question.

KingOfAnything wrote:
You don't pick one, then another, you pick them all at once.

You do? Can you point out your "rules support" for that? Or is it an assumption?

As to rules support, isn't that what you FAQ for? Wanting rules support? If we can't agree to what "at any time" means, that means there is an issue with the existing rules support. Do you think "at any time" is clear and hard to misunderstand?

And to be clear, I'm not really picking a side in this. It's unclear enough that "at any time" could mean just about any moment in the game. Without some guidance, I can't say who is right or wrong in this debate. I'm willing to admit, I can't say with 100% certainty when "at any time" is for that action.


MeanMutton wrote:


For some spells, there clearly is time between these - fireball, for instance, clearly and unambiguously has time between the spell being targeted and the target being affected.

I did say targeted spells. I mean that in the technical sense, not just something that has a target. Fireball is an AOE. The argument for doing it then is far better but still ambiguous.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Undone wrote:


Any time means any time. If there is a moment in the sequence of events where a target has been selected that is part of "any time" because any time is tautologically any time.
Thats the crux of the matter. There's nothing to indicate that there is any time between the target being selected and the spell being in effect for a targeted spell.

Do saving throws either take time or 'interrupt' time for this purpose?

Fiction has descriptions of mental attacks where the target is suddenly aware of increasing pressure or panic when some effect starts to overwhelm his mind. This usually leads to the "get out of my mind" trope, which could be considered a successful saving throw against the influence. In these cases there is some time between selecting the target and the effect taking over the target.

Would getting a saving throw be considered "any time" for these spells? Is dominate person a binary on/off event where the target has no time whatsoever to even realize he is being targeted. Or is there a moment of mental pressure (the announcement that you need to roll a Will save) which would give time for a panicking caster could get an emergency force sphere between himself and the caster before the spell fully asserts control (the Will save is actually rolled).


Naal wrote:
Do saving throws either take time or 'interrupt' time for this purpose?

It really wouldn't matter. If the spell is taking over your mind its too late to throw something between you and the caster. If the spell is in your brain putting something in between you and the caster doesn't do anything, just like teleporting your charmed/dominated friend 100 miles from the caster wouldn't do anything. They're still dominated.


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Anguish wrote:


feather fall remains a great example of this. Falling normally just happens, without consuming time. Yet there exists this spell, which exists specifically to allow you to not suffer the negative consequences of falling.

Feather Fall is indeed a very great example.

Let´s look at that falling from another perspective, a very interesting one. Let´s say you´re a monk or someone who´s very good at jumping, standing in front of a chasm. You do your best to jump over there, make your acrobatics check, but fail.
Besides Pathfinde having interesting - and abstract - jumping logics, where you can only jump your maximum movement for the round ever.
"Logic" implies that a jump carries you in a curve. Not in Pathfinder.
You jump how far your acrobatics check would carry you and if you don´t make it (over the chasm in this example), at the end (indicated by DC and roll outcome) you stop and fall down to the ground in a straight line.
The acrobatics and falling damage rules allow you to make a free action acrobatics check DC 15 to avoid some of the falling damage.
And now comes the most interesting part:
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall..
So, no standard or swift action during falling, since it´s something that happens to you, like being targeted or subject to a spell in any way, or attack, but you can do immediate actions, which interrupt the fall and are reactive. Even though the fall might happen at any time, out of your turn, when you used all of your actions.
The only way i see this not working is being in initiative and being flat-footed.


Hyato Ken wrote:
esides Pathfinde having interesting - and abstract - jumping logics, where you can only jump your maximum movement for the round ever.

This is to prevent people from having 60 feet of movement by turning their characters into the amazing Kangaroo man and jumping everywhere.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
It really wouldn't matter. If the spell is taking over your mind its too late to throw something between you and the caster. If the spell is in your brain putting something in between you and the caster doesn't do anything, just like teleporting your charmed/dominated friend 100 miles from the caster wouldn't do anything. They're still dominated.

That was the point of the last paragraph I wrote. Is it mentioned somewhere that there is "no time" between declaration of target and a rolled save?

Page 213 has this: You make all pertinent decision about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect. But "comes into effect" does not necessarily mean "affects the target". When a fireball comes into effect it appears, is launched, and only then detonates. Should we also treat save-or-suck spells as having some aspect that gives the target time to react to them (or at least be properly horrified)? A mental equivalent of water pulling back before the tsunami hits.

For the record, I have zero experience with emergency force sphere, which seems to be the primary reason for this thread. But I expect it to become relevant to my games in a couple of months, and would like to be prepared when I have to state why the spell does (not) work against threat X.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Hyato Ken wrote:
esides Pathfinde having interesting - and abstract - jumping logics, where you can only jump your maximum movement for the round ever.
This is to prevent people from having 60 feet of movement by turning their characters into the amazing Kangaroo man and jumping everywhere.

For most characters, the jump DC´s are prohibitive anyway.

Except monks and monks have that movement ;)


Quote:
Should we also treat save-or-suck spells as having some aspect that gives the target time to react to them (or at least be properly horrified)?

Yes, because many immediate actions respond during the saving throw.

Or to use your analogy, the tsunami has already hit the town. Putting a wall on the beach isn't going to do anything, you need to drop in waterpumps now.


At any time still doesn't mean retro active time or time travel.

Targets are selected after the spell is cast. The spell has already resolved. Unless an ability has specific wording or a character is readying an action, it is too late to use an immediate after the fact.

Take feather fall. Let's say you're falling over a deep pit filled with pillows whose top is rapidly closing. The DM tells you, you can't be sure but you believe theres a 50% you'll land in the pillows for no damage or hit the closing for lots of damage.

The DM rolls and announces, your gamble fails and you hit the hard lid. "Oh no, I cast featherfall", is not going to work, you are no longer falling.

The same with a finished spell, it already cast, you cannot even select an invalid target if you don't have line of effect.

Earlier someone compared ray shield to EFS, saying allowing it to do the same thing is only fair.

Except ray shield only does one thing, requires 5 feats and being a level 10+ fighter and isn't even using the language of immediate action.

EFS comes online at level 7 and people want to twist rules to make it " I'm immune to everything and can even retroactively decide afterwards if I want to be immune to this thing" peoples interpretation would cause AOE spells which select an intersection too close to the EFS to fizzle since that intersection becomes an invalid target, an almost unprecedented occurrence in the rules otherwise and one the spell never discusses.


I can time travel to any time in 1881.

When should I time travel to so that there is no president of the united states? I want to arrive after Rutherford B. Hayes is president but before James A. Garfield is President.

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