For the sake of discussion, lets just assume I have proficiency in every weapon for free and that i'll be using weapon finesse for attack rolls and str as normal for damage rolls.
In this circumstance, what, in your opinion, are the best size appropriate weapons to use in each hand?
(my own research suggests estoc(1h) and wakizashi(light) make a pretty formidable combo, but i'd like to know what you think.)
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A small-sized Knife Master Rogue with kukris would be my choice (although without some sort of free Weapon Proficiency for the kukris I'd happily stick with two daggers - they're just a Sneak Attack delivery system anyway).
Outside of Rogues, I'd go the sword-n-board route (TWF-style Ranger is easiest, but Fighter's best if you have the ability scores for it).
If you will be investing in any weapon specific feats, I would say wakizashi for both hands. If you will sometimes need a free hand for casting or something, estoc and cestus.
Some class/ feat plans might swing this to other ideas.
What makes a light shield better than a wakizashi? by the looks of things they grant +1 ac (which you have to spend a feat to keep if you attack with it), but they deal half as much damage and dont have any expanded crit range...
If you will be investing in any weapon specific feats, I would say wakizashi for both hands. If you will sometimes need a free hand for casting or something, estoc and cestus.
Some class/ feat plans might swing this to other ideas.
Good point, i didnt think about having to pick up weapon specific feats for each weapon... and thanks for the cestus idea.
It kind of depends on your build. If you're a fighter with weapon specialization, weapon training, etc., you want to have the same weapon in each hand, because your feats will apply primarily to one weapon. In that case, two light weapons won't cause you take extra penalties on your off hand. If you have improved critical, wakizashi is a great choice.
If you're using Lead Blades or Enlarge Person as a buff, you'll get more bang for the buck out of 1d8 weapons (going up to 2d6) in each hand. In that case, sawtooth sabres are a good choice, but you can't use them with weapon finesse. This works best for strength-based TWF builds, like rangers who can ignore Dex prerequisites or monk/clerics or warpriests of Achakek with Crusder's Flurry.
Shield grants you versatility and options. Probably better than the cestus if you ever need a hand free. It's pretty cheap to boost that +1 AC.
I'd be tempted to double up on the wakizashi, but I'm a sucker for paired weapons, just for the aesthetics.
If you're using Lead Blades or Enlarge Person as a buff, you'll get more bang for the buck out of 1d8 weapons (going up to 2d6) in each hand.
Cant find 2d4 Estoc on the table, what does that go to? :)
Shield grants you versatility and options.
Such as?
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There's a whole chain of Shield-fighting Feats (Shield Proficiency - Improved Shield Bash - Shield Slam - Shield Master) that complement TWF. If you have the Dex to spare for the TWF Feat chain then a Brawler Archetype Fighter is a great choice, since shield bashing is in the close weapons group and the Close Combatant class feature does more damage than vanilla weapon training. If you also take Feats that trigger AoO when an opponent falls prone then Shield Slam is especially useful (as it knocks enemies prone if you slam them into solid objects). Getting the lot is Feat-intensive, but makes for a great TWF style.
Awesome, would people advise against taking two estocs? (for weapon focus etc)
They have a greater die than the wakizashi, though it'll mean -2 more of a penalty on attacks to get it, but that isnt much worse than power attack, right?
Power attack gives you a lot more back for that -2 to hit. It is almost universally a bad idea to dual wield one handed weapons.
Such as?Shield grants you versatility and options.
Such as without changing weapons you can gain AC if you need it or if you can only make 1 attack, you can bash with it, you have a hand free for casting.
Since we're getting proficiency for free, sawtooth sabers are pretty solid, especially if going ranger or slayer so that you can ignore dex.
My favorite (and therefore the best in my opinion) are battle poi since they do fire damage instead of some physical damage type. There's all kinds of weird ways to get extra damage and effects in with them that you can't for other weapons.
Since we're getting proficiency for free, sawtooth sabers are pretty solid, especially if going ranger or slayer so that you can ignore dex.
My favorite (and therefore the best in my opinion) are battle poi since they do fire damage instead of some physical damage type. There's all kinds of weird ways to get extra damage and effects in with them that you can't for other weapons.
Yeah i looked at them briefly, went "they seem weirrrrrrd." then moved on, but I can see the potential! nevermind the fact that they look awesome.
Awesome, would people advise against taking two estocs? (for weapon focus etc)
They have a greater die than the wakizashi, though it'll mean -2 more of a penalty on attacks to get it, but that isnt much worse than power attack, right?
The reason you take an Estoc is for a Finesse weapon that you can wield in one or two hands as you see fit. As an offhand it's another -2 to all attack rolls for 1.5 more damage than a Wakizashi. Not worth it at all.
And if you are doing any spellcasting (or doing anything at all with the offhand, really) go with the Cestus.
Well in this instance we're getting the proficiency for free, and i didnt see a better 1h finesse weapon. But I dont think i'll be using 2 estoc now thanks to the responses... I like the suggestion of 2 kukris or 2 wakizashis though.
So i'm currently thinking using two of the same weapon is the way to go.
In which case, if we have exotic, then wakizashi wins.
If only martial, then Kukri wins.
Any other mentions for a weapon of the same type in each hand? Any that you think outperform these, or have cool properties?
It depends on what class(es) are used and what sources are allowed. Whether you're using one level of Swashbuckler to finesse larger weapons, whether you can use Advanced Weapon Training from the Weapon Master's Handbook to pick up Weapon Group Feats, whether you can use Effortless Lace, etc.
For instance, with one level of Swashbuckler and Effortless Lace, dual falcata is probably the single most potent option due to the devastating crits.
Well in this instance we're getting the proficiency for free, and i didnt see a better 1h finesse weapon. But I dont think i'll be using 2 estoc now thanks to the responses... I like the suggestion of 2 kukris or 2 wakizashis though.
If you get Effortless Lace you can still dual wield estocs with no additional penalties.
As previously mentioned, shields are awesome. If you are a Ranger/Slayer you can get Shield Master at level 6, which lets your shield enhancement count as weapon enhancement. As cost of gear is often a huge issue for two weapon fighters, this is a godsend. For 50k you can get two +5 shields, the same as the price of a single +5 weapon, and also have an additional AC bonus on top of it all. I particularly like the Madu. It gives you lots of great things for fighting defensively/Combat Expertise. If you stack those and invest just a little (i.e. 3 ranks in acrobatics gives you a boost to fighting defensively, Combat Expertise, and the trait Threatening Defender) you also get some really cost effective AC boosts.
Or, you can take unhindered shield if you are a fighter, get a buckler for AC, and dual wield kukris or wakizashis while enjoying your Shield AC.
==Aelryinth
OK, so quick question, ignoring all other options:
Would it be better for me to take the "Military Tradition" trait (and "skilled") to get proficiency in wakizashis to wield in each hand...
OR
Take "Dual Talent" and give myself a +2 to strength and use kukris instead?
(bear in mind i'll be using weapon finesse but still applying str to damage)
Wakizashi is one point of damage over kukri, a higher base str will give you that same damage boost, and boost damage on other weapons, two weapon rend, your CMB, CMD, encumbrance, and whatever other stuff I have not said.
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If you can somehow grab power attack (some places give it without prereqs), then I would advise estoc and cestus/other glove weapon.
Because it would allow you to 2 hand for the x1.5 power attack bonus, since a nice glove weapon would not interfere with 2 handing.
Being able to switch between 2 handing and TWF is rather powerful in the traditional attack scheme. 2 hand to get decent damage when you have to charge/move+attack.
Another suggestion would be to focus on the cestus and go with outslug style. It is a fairly powerful build, since it gives you penalty free lunge AND an extra 5' to your 5' step (ie- 10' step and still full attack). That allows you to full attack a huge area- everything in a 45' wide circle. That is the same as a reach weapon with lunge, and this plays nice with size changes (although your dex build might not play nice with it). Who doesn't love easier full attacks when you are a TWFer? Cestus is suggested since outslug is for close weapons, and the cestus is one of the best of that category.
OK, so quick question, ignoring all other options:
Would it be better for me to take the "Military Tradition" trait (and "skilled") to get proficiency in wakizashis to wield in each hand...
OR
Take "Dual Talent" and give myself a +2 to strength and use kukris instead?(bear in mind i'll be using weapon finesse but still applying str to damage)
I would take option 3: Use kukris and use the human bonus feat for your combat feat needs (as TWF is feat heavy) or for anything you want to look into on the side; the Focused Study option is good there if you want some skill boosts as it is essentially a feat that gives you 3 Skill Foci over the course of your character's life.
Falcata + effortless lace ftw
Sinking two additional feats into TWF, and now FOUR pieces of equipment to enchant? That seems like far more trouble than it's worth. If you're going to add shield feats on top of TWF, just go full-on sword and board.Or, you can take unhindered shield if you are a fighter, get a buckler for AC, and dual wield kukris or wakizashis while enjoying your Shield AC.
==Aelryinth
"Sword is obsolete. Board is where it's at." - Shield Master feat
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I still want to play with a Dorn-Dergar Master; I suppose the challenge is figuring out an equally crazy light weapon to go with it.
I still want to play with a Dorn-Dergar Master; I suppose the challenge is figuring out an equally crazy light weapon to go with it.
Scorpion Whip. Dwarven Boulder Helmet. Gnome Pincher.
Alternatively, Effortless Lace on the Dorn (as it is now a one handed weapon) and dip Titan Mauler. Piston Maul (jackhammer), Sawblade Glaive (chainsaw), Orc Ram, battle ladder.
Ok, this is what I have so far:
1st Power Attack, Bonus Feats: Weapon Finesse
3rd TWF
5th Double Slice
7th Imp TWF
8th Bonus Feats: Weapon Focus (Kukri)
9th Improved Critical (Kukri)
10th Bonus Feats: Blind Fight, Improved Blind Fight
11th Two weapon rend
I havnt accounted for the human bonus feat yet (or an ART, or different race etc), what other feats do I want for a character that wields 2 kukri? (no shields, you board humpers!)
PS: Suggest anything that you dont think any character can do without, whether its TWF build specific or generally.
For style, honestly, I think the two-bladed sword would be the coolest looking one. I've liked the quarterstaff form to begin with, and adding slashy bits just makes it better. Sadly, the quarterstaff itself is hosed in Pathfinder. I do remember trying to build a two-weapon fighter in 3.0 using the two-bladed sword (and a staff as a backup).
I've also thought of maybe, assuming Exotic proficiency, bastard sword/short sword. (Effortless lace of course means you can go blender with double bastard sword!)
Ok, this is what I have so far:
1st Power Attack, Bonus Feats: Weapon Finesse
3rd TWF
5th Double Slice
7th Imp TWF
8th Bonus Feats: Weapon Focus (Kukri)
9th Improved Critical (Kukri)
10th Bonus Feats: Blind Fight, Improved Blind Fight
11th Two weapon rendI havnt accounted for the human bonus feat yet (or an ART, or different race etc), what other feats do I want for a character that wields 2 kukri? (no shields, you board humpers!)
PS: Suggest anything that you dont think any character can do without, whether its TWF build specific or generally.
The downside with not using Shields is you won't be able to feasibly cast spells unless you have a Glove of Storing or similar item which allows you to free up your hand for, well, free. Whereas Quickdraw Light Throwing Shields will allow you to draw and equip the shields for free (as well as throw them a distance for ranged combat), you can carry one or both on a single hand, freeing them up, and they'll give you a good AC increase (and other goodies when you get the gold to enhance them proper). With the Shield Master feat, you'll have no penalty to TWF with both shields. With the Agile property on them, you'll be able to add Dexterity to damage for every attack, both melee and ranged, that you make. Of course, this costs you in that they're 20/X2 weapons, which sucks for Crit-fishing. Anyway, for feats...
Hammer the Gap would give you some solid damage bonuses for consecutive hits. I'd consider taking this sort of feat later down the road, meaning you can pick up Weapon Focii or Improved Critical sooner.
If you're trying to go Dexterity-based, I'd suggest dumping your Strength to 10 and picking up Piranha Strike in place of Power Attack. This will give you a few more points to put elsewhere that you might need then.
I'd consider dumping the concept of Weapon Finesse if you're going to pick up feats like Two-Weapon Rend, which key specifically off of Strength and can't be replaced in any way. Otherwise, I'd substitute Two-Weapon Rend for Two-Weapon Defense, and helps since you won't be using a Shield at all.
With high Dexterity, Combat Reflexes is a somewhat attractive option, and allows you to deal with multiple enemies provoking Attacks of Opportunities. I wouldn't recommend it unless you have a feat or other benefit that allows you to trigger consecutive Attacks of Opportunity.
If you'll be having a flanking buddy for a lot of encounters, I'd suggest the Outflank teamwork feat for both you and said buddy; it doubles your flank bonus, and if you or your buddy make a critical confirmation, then the other can make a free Attack of Opportunity on the target. This works quite well with the Combat Reflexes suggestion I mentioned above.
Improved Initiative is always a good and attractive option for any character, especially if you don't know what else to pick.
The Additional Traits feat allows you to pick up 2 more character traits, which may be more valuable than any feat you could feasibly pick up.
Outside that, I believe that's all I can suggest.
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I still want to play with a Dorn-Dergar Master; I suppose the challenge is figuring out an equally crazy light weapon to go with it.
I built a 1/2 elf (traded skill focus for exotic weapon prof) Dorn Dergar Master that wielded 2 Dorn Dergar.
1 at reach, the other for adjacent.
Was a fun build to work on...then he was slain by giant spiders during Shattered Star.
Thanks for all the suggestions darksol. I'll have a play.
Assuming you are not a rogue, the best weapon for TWF is whatever light weapon you can get with as high a critical range as you can get. Typically, the damage die of the weapon is unimportant.
This is especially true of a fighter that can take Advanced Weapon Training Focused Weapon and get the scaling damage dice like warpriest.
However, under almost all circumstances anything you have to do to get exotic weapon proficiency is not worth it.
This means the assuming you are proficient in martial weapons, the kukri is usually the best choice for TWF.
The Shielded Mage shield mastery feat allows you to cast spells with your shield hand.
The downside with not using Shields is you won't be able to feasibly cast spells unless you have a Glove of Storing or similar item which allows you to free up your hand for, well, free.
A double weapon would also let you cast if you need to. Now to find a good one of those ...
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A double weapon would also let you cast if you need to. Now to find a good one of those ...The Shielded Mage shield mastery feat allows you to cast spells with your shield hand.
The downside with not using Shields is you won't be able to feasibly cast spells unless you have a Glove of Storing or similar item which allows you to free up your hand for, well, free.
Weighted spear, Urgosh, Double Axe, and Hook Hammer are all decent. Weighted spear is simple, and the remaining three are all martial for humans and the named race.
Sinking two additional feats into TWF, and now FOUR pieces of equipment to enchant? That seems like far more trouble than it's worth. If you're going to add shield feats on top of TWF, just go full-on sword and board.Or, you can take unhindered shield if you are a fighter, get a buckler for AC, and dual wield kukris or wakizashis while enjoying your Shield AC.
==Aelryinth
One, if you are a fighter. Shield AC. 2-3x as good as Two Weapon Defense. Another slot to put defensive stuff on. Cheapest way to raise your AC. Same cost as a shield guy enhancing his shield as a weapon. If you really want to keep costs low, have the party cleric just GMV it instead.
And you get to use actual matching, fairly optimized weapons instead of a shield.
==Aelryinth
"Sword is obsolete. Board is where it's at." - Shield Master featSinking two additional feats into TWF, and now FOUR pieces of equipment to enchant? That seems like far more trouble than it's worth. If you're going to add shield feats on top of TWF, just go full-on sword and board.Or, you can take unhindered shield if you are a fighter, get a buckler for AC, and dual wield kukris or wakizashis while enjoying your Shield AC.
==Aelryinth
Because waiting for 12th level to use a substandard weapon at a decent level of power is always a good thing to do.
:P Freaking level reqs. Not everyone gets to be a ranger.
==Aelryinth
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"Sword is obsolete. Board is where it's at." - Shield Master featSinking two additional feats into TWF, and now FOUR pieces of equipment to enchant? That seems like far more trouble than it's worth. If you're going to add shield feats on top of TWF, just go full-on sword and board.Or, you can take unhindered shield if you are a fighter, get a buckler for AC, and dual wield kukris or wakizashis while enjoying your Shield AC.
==Aelryinth
Because waiting for 12th level to use a substandard weapon at a decent level of power is always a good thing to do.
:P Freaking level reqs. Not everyone gets to be a ranger.
==Aelryinth
Yes, but if you are going to make a shield using character, 6 levels of Ranger or Slayer is a very good idea.
Even still, there are alternatives for the non-combat style classes.
He's waiting 6 or 12 levels to get a decent weapon.
He's also has to blow a feat on Improved Shield Bash, so he does NOT have a feat advantage. You know, if he wants to have his AC and attack, also. AND he furthermore has to blow a feat on Shield Master.
If he wants Bashing on his shield, he has to spend 8k for +1 Bashing regardless. Otherwise he's stuck with a d4 or d6 spiked shield 20/x2, a purely inferior weapon that does NOT dovetail with his primary weapon.
If he's a ranger, he now needs Dex reqs for TWF. You know, because he's using his style feats for the Shield school, not the TWF school. Unless maybe he's doing a stalker/ranger so he gets both, six levels late?
If he wants better damage over time, weapon synergy, and the like, it's not only not a waste, it is strictly superior to sword and board. Especially if you are a fighter. Not having to waste time and money investing in a shield to make it STILL a subpar weapon is every bit as irritating as investing in a second weapon, regardless.
And if you truly want to make an uber shield, well, investing for a +5 Shield, +5 defender as a weapon is exactly the same cost whether it is one shield, or one buckler and one weapon.
Your costs end up the same. May as well go with the stuff that gets a better crit and dovetails WM and WF feat chains.
And note: AC is the MOST relevant form of defense in the game. You take attacks against AC far, far more often then saves and touch AC.
==Aelryinth
If all options are open for TWF, taking one level of Monk and using Dragon Style unarmed strike for offhand attacks is very powerful. You get full one-handed Power Attack bonus and 2xSTR/1.5xSTR on offhand strikes without needing Double Slice, and you can either exploit switching to two-handing your mainhand weapon for single attacks or just carry a heavy shield. Even if you're missing out on weapon feats on your offhand due to going weapon/unarmed, there's so much potential damage on a Dragon Style offhand that it doesn't really matter. The Dragon Ferocity fear effect is also really nice with a high-crit mainhand.