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I was commenting on another thread and Cevah made an interesting argument in favor on why Bardic Knowledge doesn't let you bypass the DC10 on Knowledge Checks.
This was in clear contrast with others threads I read and people on the same post, so I went and started researching a little.
I started checking information, and because I didn't want any doubts, I went to the books themselves.
From the CRB, Page 87.
Trained Only : If this notation is included in the skill name
line, you must have at least 1 rank in the skill to use it. If this
notation is omitted, the skill can be used untrained (with a
rank of 0).
Skills that are marked as Trained, you cannot use them, unless you have 1 rank.
The very definition of Trained is having 1 rank, while Untrained means having no ranks at all.
If any special notes apply to trained or untrained
use, they are covered in the Untrained section (see below). Let's see below.
Untrained: This entry indicates what a character without
at least 1 rank in the skill can do with it. If this entry
doesn’t appear, it means that the skill functions normally
for untrained characters (if it can be used untrained) or
that an untrained character can’t attempt checks with this
skill (for skills that are designated “Trained Only”).
Basically, if Knowledge skill has the entry Untrained, it will say what a PC can do without having ranks on the skill. So, let's check that up
Untrained: You cannot make an untrained Knowledge
check with a DC higher than 10.
As long as we are Untrained on a Knowledge skill, our ceiling will be DC10.
Untrained is defined, as we said before, by not having any single ranks in the skill.
After seeing all this, let's check what Bardic Knowledge says:
Bardic Knowledge (Ex): A bard adds half his class
level (minimum 1) to all Knowledge skill checks and
may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained.
So, we're still doing Untrained checks, the only difference is that we have half our level added on the skill check.
So, no where it says we can bypass the DC10 limit. It's only a little help to be more well versed on everything, as bards usually are.
How do you people rule this on your tables? Was this always the consideration and I never noticed, or what?
This is how I do it. The bard will only need to put a single rank in any knowledge skill they want to be able to use beyond the DC 10. They will be really good at hitting that DC 10 even without the skill point.
"..and may make ALL Knowledge skill checks untrained."
Everyone can make SOME Knowledge skill checks untrained... those up to DC 10. However, Bardic Knowledge allows ALL checks to be made untrained... regardless of DC.
If you read my post, you will see my arguments against it.
Untrained checks still have the DC10 limit.
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"..and may make ALL Knowledge skill checks untrained."
Everyone can make SOME Knowledge skill checks untrained... those up to DC 10. However, Bardic Knowledge allows ALL checks to be made untrained... regardless of DC.
If you read my post, you will see my arguments against it.
Untrained checks still have the DC10 limit.
I read your post. It does not explain this at all.
If "...and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained" does NOT mean that you can bypass the DC 10 limit on untrained skill checks then what IS it referring to?
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CB is right. A DC 20 knowledge check is a knowledge check, I can make it untrained.
All means All.
"..and may make ALL Knowledge skill checks untrained."
Everyone can make SOME Knowledge skill checks untrained... those up to DC 10. However, Bardic Knowledge allows ALL checks to be made untrained... regardless of DC.
If you read my post, you will see my arguments against it.
Untrained checks still have the DC10 limit.I read your post. It does not explain this at all.
If "...and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained" does NOT mean that you can bypass the DC 10 limit on untrained skill checks then what IS it referring to?
It's now RAW, it's RAI. The rules per se don't allow you to bypass the DC10, unless someone said they so in some occult post 5 years ago, that's how usually goes.
But untrained checks, are still untrained, with a limit of DC10
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Letric, repeating yourself over and over while adding no new arguments is highly unconvincing.
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CBDunkerson has it right. Bardic Knowledge basically removes the "You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10" line. That's what it means by "may make ALL Knowledge skill checks untrained".
To do otherwise is to assume that the sentence was added to the ability for no reason, as it'd add nothing to the content by giving you the ability to do something you can already do.
Somehow "You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10" doesn't sound like all checks to me... So I think I reject the arguments you put forth in the first post.
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Letric, repeating yourself over and over while adding no new arguments is highly unconvincing.
But it's clearly stated, there are no more arguments to add. I haven't seen a single argument against it yet, except your own liberal interpretation of what the Devs might have wanted the skill to do.
Show me that you can bypass dc10 somehow on untrained checks.
I'm using defined terms, defined by the game itself. It's like BAB, it's only thing, and can't be another thing.
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What exactly does "all" mean to you?
And what do you think the ability does?
I mean the bard can already make DC10 knowledge checks untrained, same as everyone else.
Remember the rules aren't written in legalese, and English isn't a precise language sometimes. So if one way of reading it does nothing and an alternate way works...
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Letric, repeating yourself over and over while adding no new arguments is highly unconvincing.But it's clearly stated, there are no more arguments to add. I haven't seen a single argument against it yet, except your own liberal interpretation of what the Devs might have wanted the skill to do.
Show me that you can bypass dc10 somehow on untrained checks.
I'm using defined terms, defined by the game itself. It's like BAB, it's only thing, and can't be another thing.
*points at first post*
You quoted it. "...and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained". Not DC 10 checks but all checks. There is no "liberal interpretation" just simple facts. All checks include those higher than DC 10...
That's just simple English. All in inclusive. You'd need a "liberal interpretation" to come to another conclusion like only DC 10 checks could be made...
Am I missing something. It says under Bardic Knowledge, that you can make "all knowledge skill checks untrained". Anyone can make DC 11+ knowledge check with a single rank.
Edit: When reading the rule you need to insert "unless an ability or other rule changes this" after every sentence.
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Yeah, seems pretty clear that 'all knowledge checks' means just that. A DC15 knowledge check is a knowledge check, so it falls under the umbrella of 'all knowledge checks'.
Also this doesn't really seem like a question so much as a bad attempt to make fun of a RAW dysfunction.
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You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10.
and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained.
The wording is what makes it work. Normal characters cannot even attempt a knowledge check if they are untrained and the DC is above 10. Bards can attempt any knowledge check even if they are untrained.
Am I missing something. It says under Bardic Knowledge, that you can make "all knowledge skill checks untrained". Anyone can make DC 11+ knowledge check with a single rank.
Edit: When reading the rule you need to insert "unless an ability or other rule changes this" after every sentence.
How does PRD [bottom of the page]
You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10. If you have access to an extensive library that covers a specific skill, this limit is removed. The time to make checks using a library, however, increases to 1d4 hours. Particularly complete libraries might even grant a bonus on Knowledge checks in the fields that they cover.
work as a specific rule overriding a more general one?
/cevah
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But it's not just saying you can attempt DC10 knowledge checks, EVERYONE can already do that.
It's saying make ALL knowledge skill checks untrained.
In your post you quote that "You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10"
This means that if a knowledge skill check is DC11 you cannot make it.
Bards let you make all knowledge checks untrained. Meaning they "CAN make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10"
And I think somewhere it's been said that if you get the ability to use a trained skill untrained that you can use it as if you were trained. But I'm not sure where I've seen this.
Are we certain "bardic knowledge" is a knowledge skill at all? They may share the "knowledge" part in their names, but there's no skill called "bardic knowledge".
In my opinion, a "bardic knowledge check" is not a skill check, nor a knowledge check. It is its own thing. You can't take 10 or 20 and you're not limited to a DC 10 either.
But it's not just saying you can attempt DC10 knowledge checks, EVERYONE can already do that.
It's saying make ALL knowledge skill checks untrained.In your post you quote that "You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10"
This means that if a knowledge skill check is DC11 you cannot make it.
Bards let you make all knowledge checks untrained. Meaning they "CAN make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10"And I think somewhere it's been said that if you get the ability to use a trained skill untrained that you can use it as if you were trained. But I'm not sure where I've seen this.
1) Knowledge is a trained skill. It has a special rule about using it untrained for DC 10 and below. The bypassing the "Trained" requirement removed the "Trained" classification from the skill usage. It does not remove the cap.
2) Please search for and find this. If it is a dev post, errata, or FAQ, that could clear this up at once.
/cevah
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Am I missing something. It says under Bardic Knowledge, that you can make "all knowledge skill checks untrained". Anyone can make DC 11+ knowledge check with a single rank.
Edit: When reading the rule you need to insert "unless an ability or other rule changes this" after every sentence.
How does PRD [bottom of the page]
You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10. If you have access to an extensive library that covers a specific skill, this limit is removed. The time to make checks using a library, however, increases to 1d4 hours. Particularly complete libraries might even grant a bonus on Knowledge checks in the fields that they cover.work as a specific rule overriding a more general one?
/cevah
It doesn't. Since the bard's Bardic Performance ability is a specific rule. It grants the ability to make all knowledge checks.
Bardic Performance
A bard adds half his class level (minimum 1) to all Knowledge skill checks and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained.
The general rule is
You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10.
See how those two sentences line up perfectly? One says you can not make a knowledge check with a DC higher than 10. The other says they can make all knowledge checks untrained.
Both use the words 'make' and 'untrained' in intelligible ways that are extremely clear.
Are we certain "bardic knowledge" is a knowledge skill at all? They may share the "knowledge" part in their names, but there's no skill called "bardic knowledge".
In my opinion, a "bardic knowledge check" is not a skill check, nor a knowledge check. It is its own thing. You can't take 10 or 20 and you're not limited to a DC 10 either.
A bard adds half his class level (minimum 1) to all Knowledge skill checks and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained.
It is a class feature that affects the skill check.
/cevah
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Are we certain "bardic knowledge" is a knowledge skill at all? They may share the "knowledge" part in their names, but there's no skill called "bardic knowledge".
In my opinion, a "bardic knowledge check" is not a skill check, nor a knowledge check. It is its own thing. You can't take 10 or 20 and you're not limited to a DC 10 either.
Yes it is a knowledge check. The rule specifically says it lets you make knowledge checks.
How could it then not be a knowledge check?
...stuff...
As we agree on what the words are, and only differ in what they mean, I think we must agree to disagree.
/cevah
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...stuff...As we agree on what the words are, and only differ in what they mean, I think we must agree to disagree.
/cevah
Is a DC25 knowledge check a knowledge check?
Yes.Can someone trained in a knowledge make that knowledge check?
Yes.
Can someone untrained in a knowledge check make that knowledge check?
No.
Can a bard make all knowledge checks untrained?
Yes.
The keywords are 'make a knowledge check'. If you are untrained you can not make a knowledge check. But a bard specifically can make all knowledge checks even untrained.
How can that literally mean anything else?
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Cevah, you do realize that your interpretation makes the statement that Bardic Knowledge allows Bards to make all knowledge checks untrained completely useless and redundant?
If they didn't intend for Bardic Knowledge to be read as allowing you to make untrained checks above a DC 10 then why even state that?
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OP made an interesting argument. But I side with the all means all argument. I think this is the most logical interpretation and stays within the meaning of the words used.
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1) Knowledge is a trained skill. It has a special rule about using it untrained for DC 10 and below. The bypassing the "Trained" requirement removed the "Trained" classification from the skill usage. It does not remove the cap.But it's not just saying you can attempt DC10 knowledge checks, EVERYONE can already do that.
It's saying make ALL knowledge skill checks untrained.In your post you quote that "You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10"
This means that if a knowledge skill check is DC11 you cannot make it.
Bards let you make all knowledge checks untrained. Meaning they "CAN make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10"And I think somewhere it's been said that if you get the ability to use a trained skill untrained that you can use it as if you were trained. But I'm not sure where I've seen this.
In which case, the Bardic Knowledge ability does absolutely nothing, since the only ability it grants is one that has already been granted.
Please put me in the "all Knowledge checks" actually means what it says. Since a DC 26 Knowledge (engineering) check is a Knowledge check, a bard can attempt it untrained, even if a wizard couldn't.
...stuff...As we agree on what the words are, and only differ in what they mean, I think we must agree to disagree.
/cevah
If you are untrained you can not make a knowledge check. But a bard specifically can make all knowledge checks even untrained.
Actually if you're untrained, you can make a Knowledge check. The skill itself says so
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Actually if you're untrained, you can make a Knowledge check. The skill itself says so
But not ALL checks. ;)
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Besides the fact that most of your are being jerks, I always considered ALL as in "all the knowledge skills", not the checks per se, as in "any check no matter the DC.All means all.
No "raw" or "rai" about it.
A 'knowledge skill check' is a singular thing. It is a check related to a knowledge skill.
You can't remove the word 'checks' from the sentence by yourself to give the statment 'all knowledge skill checks' a different meaning. That is not how english works.I mean, even in your sentence based on your belief... you pluralized 'skills'. Because you used the word all. So I know you understand that english rule.
"and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained."
Remove the word checks and you have...
"and may make all knowledge skill untrained"
It no longer makes sense as an English sentence.
After using the word 'all' you need to use a plural version of a word to show what the 'all' relates to. So, what is made plural in the sentence? Checks is plural. So, you can remove the words knowledge skill from the sentence and it still make sense in the language...
"and may make all checks untrained"
Though, obviously it is missing its intended purpose, which is to explain that those checks are related to knowledge skills.
The sentence still works if you change the order like this...
"and may make all checks untrained(knowledge skill)"
Or
"and may make all checks untrained related to a knowledge skill"
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Actually if you're untrained, you can make a Knowledge check. The skill itself says so...stuff...As we agree on what the words are, and only differ in what they mean, I think we must agree to disagree.
/cevah
If you are untrained you can not make a knowledge check. But a bard specifically can make all knowledge checks even untrained.
but with a limitation...
Bardic Knowledge removes that limitation
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Regardless of the argument of what the RAW for Bardic Knowledgeis, I think we can all agree (hopefully) that RAI Bard's are able to make all Knowledge Skill Checks Untrained Regardless of the DC considering how useless Bardic Knowledge would be otherwise.
After all, the OP's original question was,
How do you people rule this on your tables?
which is clearly a question of RAI not RAW.
Edit: Accidently wrote Bardic Performance
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I think the loremaster FAQ is a good place to look for how you should read the bard abilities. The ability to take 10 was meant to DO something and not be filler text. It's a good bet other abilities are actually meant to do something also...
If you can read a rule in a way that it's meaningless, you have to examine it to see if you're reading it right. If it can be read in different way, the one that actually does something is the most likely reading.
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I agree with graystone. The ability is clear in what it does, and has been for nearly a decade. (Longer if you count 3.5.)
I've always read the all as simply meaning, that you don't have to pick a specific knowledge, like arcana, or religion, etc, but that the dc10 cap is still there.
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I've always read the all as simply meaning, that you don't have to pick a specific knowledge, like arcana, or religion, etc, but that the dc10 cap is still there.
You do realise that that means that bardic knowledge does nothing then? Anyone can already try a DC10 knowledge(anything) check.
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So the argument is that "All" doesn't mean "All"? Okay, then...
I think the better question is "Why do you feel the need to nerf/limit Bardic Knowledge?"
Seriously... I'll never understand this need to nerf harmless stuff for no discernible reason.