Fast healing and regeneration are both extraordinary abilities (Ex) and therefore non-magical, so Fast Healer does not kick in. If they were (Sp) or (Su) it would be different.
If they were (Sp) or (Su) it would be different.
Like Infernal Healing / Celestial Healing, where it doubles your healing to 2 per round. It's possible to build around it:
Level 1: Fighter with unbreakable archetype (gets Endurance and Diehard instead of first bonus feat), Fast Healer and Extend Spell as regular feat and human bonus feat
Level 2: Any caster class capable of casting Infernal Healing (Celestial Healing's duration is level based)
Each individual casting now heals 40 HP (2 per round) - roughly twice your HP at level 2. It will take time, so it's more useful out of combat. But in combat it's not bad either, because it doesn't need actions and also works when you are below 0 but not dead yet. Extend Spell doesn't increase spell level for Infernal Healing if you use the Magical Lineage trait for it.
Well, afterwards you could take Racial Heritage (orc) and continue with orc's fighter FCB (+2 effective HP below 0), Tenacious Survivor (then Infernal Healing gets you back from the dead, if I get it right) and Deathless Initiate & Deathless Master (actually become stronger below 0 HP). Don't forget to spend some resources on offense, but your main strength will be your tenacity. At least at low and medium levels, higher ones need some extra thoughts...
Infernal healing gives you fast healing via a spell- so is that magical healing or is it extraordinary
Debatable, along with all other decent uses of Fast Healer. Consult your GM, expect table variation, and don't try it in PFS.
also what is celestial healing? (spell, feat, trait?)
Here. It's infernal healing without the evil.
Fast healing is an EX ability, so the spell is giving you a short term EX ability and thus fast healer doesn't help.
Fast healing is an EX ability, so the spell is giving you a short term EX ability and thus fast healer doesn't help.
So the Fast Healing granted by Infernal Healing persists even if you enter an antimagic field?
Outsider blood is free so the spell is free.
Heh. Ok sure. My pockets are always full of the blood of angels, so I understand that.
Infernal Healing uses "Devil Blood", so the blood of a Tiefling can be used...
So the available blood can be easily found.(low to no cost)Celestial Healing uses Good "Outsider Blood", so the blood of a good Aasimars, Ifrits, Oreads, Sylphs, Tieflings, and Undines can be used...
So the available blood can be easily found.(low to no cost)
Outsider blood is free so the spell is free.Heh. Ok sure. My pockets are always full of the blood of angels, so I understand that.Infernal Healing uses "Devil Blood", so the blood of a Tiefling can be used...
So the available blood can be easily found.(low to no cost)Celestial Healing uses Good "Outsider Blood", so the blood of a good Aasimars, Ifrits, Oreads, Sylphs, Tieflings, and Undines can be used...
So the available blood can be easily found.(low to no cost)
Or for a sorcerer or anyone with eschew materials no component is needed.
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Fast healing is an EX ability, so the spell is giving you a short term EX ability and thus fast healer doesn't help.So the Fast Healing granted by Infernal Healing persists even if you enter an antimagic field?
No, since the effect has a duration and is affected by SR. The fast healing itself would not be magical as it is an EX ability. But, the spell is what is giving you the EX ability.
When you enter the AMF Infernal healing is suppressed and thus no longer is sustaining the EX ability. So you do not heal.
Just because a thing is sustained by magic does not necessarily make the thing magical. It probably should be magical healing, though. But since it does not say it changes the EX ability into a magical ability... well, that's how it is written.
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I've been on both sides of this in the last 48 hours and after seeing that Eidolons Fast healing are not (Ex) but (Su)
Fast Healing (Su): The eidolon's body gains the ability to heal wounds very quickly, giving it fast healing 1. The eidolon heals 1 point of damage per round, just like via natural healing.~
I think the argument that all fast Healing is (Ex) is a dead and redundant argument. If there had not been another example of Fast healing being (Sp) or (Su) I probably would not have sided for it working
Infernal healing is a Conjuration (healing) (Evil) Spell
Cure X Wounds are Conjuration (healing) spell
in the Rules for healing on page 191 of the Players Handbook
Natural healing is Listed as a full Nights Rest
Magical healing is Listed as "Various Abilities and Spells can restore Hitpoints"
since its a spell it falls into magical healing because of "Various abilities and spells"
yes it would help if it Told us what TYPE of Fast healing provided Particularly since the ISWG was released After the APG
By RAW All it says is fast healing .. nothing more .. nothing less not (Ex) or (Su) and as soon as you start applying those to it you are venturing into RAI
The eidolon's ability could easily be that it's a SU effect called fast healing that grants fast healing 1. It says right there that this evolution is granting fast healing 1. So a SU evolution granting an EX ability, just like the spell. Since we already know that a few of the eidolon's evolutions that are named the same as the monster abilities yet aren't and work differently I don't find it hard for this to be the same. A SU evo named fast healing granting the normal EX fast healing. Just like how a spell, animal shape, can great EX flight.
If you find something that said, fast healing (su) heal 1 hp... and never reference the "fast healing" from Universal monster rules then I'd think you got something. But all the SU and SP things say they grant or give fast healing while they are active. Which to me points to them being SU and SP that are granting an EX ability you normally don't have.
Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing.
With a full night's rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level.
When you regain hit points by resting or through magical healing...
I'm pretty sure that RaW, Fast Healing is considered an accelerated form of Natural Healing, which in turn is considered to be regaining hitpoints via rest, which in turn is one of the two forms of healing affected by the Fast Healer feat.
Regeneration arguably could be affected as well since it is stated that Regeneration heals damage at a fixed rate as with fast healing; but the way it is worded could be interpreted as simply pointing out the similarity between the two abilities, and there isn't any other reference of Regeneration being related in any way to Natural Healing.
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If you find something that said, fast healing (su) heal 1 hp... and never reference the "fast healing" from Universal monster rules then I'd think you got something.
interesting that TECHNICALLY IH doesnt Reference the Universal monster Rules ... its the side of the Community that says it doesnt Work that is referencing it
the farther I dig into this the more I believe that Fast healing given by Infernal healing is not an EX
does the fast healing end when you walk into an AMF
yes ? SU or SP
No ? Ex
if your fine saying that the fast healing Stays after entering an AMF then sure I can get behind your argument but Dollars to Donuts noone has that opinion ... and you really cant have it both ways
because of this line in IH
The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic (Clasifying it as magic)
whats even funnier is that all the spell says is it gives you fast healing 1 ... and as soon as you seperate fast healing from the Effect that allows you to "sense the evil of the Magic" your left with a duration-less Fast healing 1
someione tried to use the polymorph into a hawk argument and thats lead me to believe this is much more binary than its being made ... the interesting thing about the flight argument is not about Wings .. its all about " If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists"
same goes for EX, SU. SP ... do they end in an AMF ...
the natural healing Entry on pg. 191 confuses things more since it only lists 1 Type of Natural healing and I cant find any other definition of natural healing anywhere else in the books
And anything else is considered Magical healing
as for the Regenerate Spell it doesn't GIVE you regeneration ability so without debate it would work
Infernal healing is further Convoluted by the fact that it allows SR... EX and SU don't
I think theres to many markers pointing away from an Ex to support it BEING one
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Regeneration arguably could be affected as well since it is stated that Regeneration heals damage at a fixed rate as with fast healing; but the way it is worded could be interpreted as simply pointing out the similarity between the two abilities, and there isn't any other reference of Regeneration being related in any way to Natural Healing.
Regen actually mentions Fast Healing, which in turn is just like natural healing but is extremely accelerated. (from overnight healing to points per round)
when you enter an AMF the spell stops granting you fast healing. Since you no longer have the EX ability of fast healing you don't heal any more. NOT that your fast healing was stopped by the AMF but the spell granting it to you.
Like the animal shape into a hawk. If you say that the caster is using the Hawks wings to EX fly then going into a AMF doesn't turn off the flight but turns off the spell that was granting the EX ability.
But if you say that the factor is if that ability is removed by whatever reason in an AMF then that means that animal shape's flight is magical flight and not restricted by EX flight rules.
I've only met one person that said that an animal shape's flight is magical flight. But it's spell that has SR too.
A draconic sorcerer has a bloodline ability Wings(SU) at 15th level, leathery dragon wings grow from your back as a standard action, giving you a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. You can dismiss the wings as a free action.
Do you believe that since this turns off it's magical flight and not a magical ability granting wings that grant EX flight?
Like are all movement granting spells, are they suddenly granting SP flight/burrow/earth glide/ since it "doesn't technically reference the monster ability?"
Is the barbarians pounce from Greater beast totem or the wings from Dragon Totem Wings, granted from SU rage powesr, explicitly saying "he pounce special ability" and "wings that grant her a fly speed equal to her base speed" granting SU pounce and SU flight? It would turn off in a AMF. And it seems that's your platform for saying that fast healing is magical. I don't think most people would say that he's getting a special new ability of SU pounce or that the wings are granting SU flight but that the rage power is granting the normal EX pounce and EX flight that that the AMF is stopping the rage powers, not the actual pounce or flight.
So YES it does technically reference fast healing since when an ability is referenced we're to look in the rules for how it works.
Fast Healing (Su) eidolon evo
An eidolon’s body gains the ability to heal wounds very quickly, giving it fast healing 1.
fast healing is defined as an EX ability.
If there was an ability that said "you can keep one effect that normally turns off in an AMF on" that the fast healing granted by the spell would turn off since it was magical healing if you kept the spell on? (cause remember the spell is giving you "the new SP/SU/magical ability" fast healing, not that the spell IS fast healing) so if you picked the spell you'd detect as evil and be being granted the magical fast healing, but that the fast healing would be turn off? And obviously if you picked the magical fast healing the spell stops, which stops the granting of this magical healing, and thus you wasted your choice?
Would you say that if the sorcerer/barbarian/polymorphed creature picked the bloodline power/rage power/spell that they'd have the wings but be unable to fly since it'd be considered magical flight, Since the ability normally would have been gone in the AMF?
Or are you proposing that all those abilities that behave oh so similarly to this situation, where it's seemingly a SP/SU granting an EX ability are doing that but that fast healing is somehow the special exception?
Like I really can't see how you can see these and say "Yes this spell is granting magical fast healing ability", and also say, "No those spells and SU abilities are granting the normal EX versions of the ability." And not think anything of it.
But Yes, if you had the ability to keep only one effect on in AMF and chose the spell that the spell would work and grant EX fast healing that would also continue to work.
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when you enter an AMF the spell stops granting you fast healing. Since you no longer have the EX ability of fast healing you don't heal any more. NOT that your fast healing was stopped by the AMF but the spell granting it to you.
you cant have it both Ways .. Infernal healing is either Magical or its not - the Spell gives all 3 parts ... not 1 and 1 and 1 as soon as you say its Not Magical you are Separating the effects
Part 1 you gain Fast Healing 1Part 2 Cannot Repair Damage from Silver or Good alligned
Part 3 Detects as evil for the Duration and can sense the Evil of the Magic
Part 3 alone Classifies it as Magical
Like the animal shape into a hawk. If you say that the caster is using the Hawks wings to EX fly then going into a AMF doesn't turn off the flight but turns off the spell that was granting the EX ability.
Flight EX or SU only Cares if it ends in an AMF thats it Look at the Rules for Flight all it Says is this
If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists. -
your Wild Shaped - effect ends and you fall
But if you say that the factor is if that ability is removed by whatever reason in an AMF then that means that animal shape's flight is magical flight and not restricted by EX flight rules.
the portion of Flight that would apply to "EX" status is this A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action, and Maneuverability Rules
the Fly Skill only says thisYou are skilled at flying, either through the use of wings or magic
and yes .. pretty much AMF Suppresses all SU and SP PERIOD ... no exceptions
I've only met one person that said that an animal shape's flight is magical flight. But it's spell that has SR too.
Yup that was Me .. and you got that answer because you pushed me for an on the Spot By RAW answer - and my answer was Yes because your Wild shape is suppressed so you loose flight... did you have wings before ? ok that's a different Story
and your Confusing EX withNatural Abilities
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. which is a summarily Ill exposed Catagory Just like Natural Healing
A draconic sorcerer has a bloodline ability Wings(SU) at 15th level, leathery dragon wings grow from your back as a standard action, giving you a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. You can dismiss the wings as a free action.
Do you believe that since this turns off it's magical flight and not a magical ability granting wings that grant EX flight?
its an SU ability Not EX - SU abilities are inherently Magic by their interaction with an Antimagic Field, and the ability States how its an SU so I dont know what your trying to accomplish here
Like are all movement granting spells, are they suddenly granting SP flight/burrow/earth glide/ since it "doesn't technically reference the monster ability?"
SP or SU - since its granted by a Spell and therefore subject to AMF
Is the barbarians pounce from Greater beast totem or the wings from Dragon Totem Wings, granted from SU rage powesr, explicitly saying "he pounce special ability" and "wings that grant her a fly speed equal to her base speed" granting SU pounce and SU flight? It would turn off in a AMF. And it seems that's your platform for saying that fast healing is magical. I don't think most people would say that he's getting a special new ability of SU pounce or that the wings are granting SU flight but that the rage power is granting the normal EX pounce and EX flight that that the AMF is stopping the rage powers, not the actual pounce or flight.
its not EX Flight ... the SU gives you Wings Which Cease to Function in an AMF - EX by their Definition Would Continue to Function in an AMF ... and so would Natural Abilities
So YES it does technically reference fast healing since when an ability is referenced we're to look in the in the rules for how it works.
Fast Healing (Su) eidolon evo
An eidolon’s body gains the ability to heal wounds very quickly, giving it fast healing 1.
fast healing is defined as an EX ability.
Except in the Eidolons Case it is an SU and NOWHERE in the description does it say Ex ... that's YOUR Words Not RAW
If there was an ability that said "you can keep one effect that normally turns off in an AMF on" that the fast healing granted by the spell would turn off since it was magical healing if you kept the spell on? (cause remember the spell is giving you "the new SP/SU/magical ability" fast healing, not that the spell IS fast healing) so if you picked the spell you'd detect as evil and be being granted the magical fast healing, but that the fast healing would be turn off? And obviously if you picked the magical fast healing the spell stops, which stops the granting of this magical healing, and thus you wasted your choice?
you've Round-aboutly highlighted the Conundrum ...if Fast Healing is Not Magical then it would Remain active During the AMF (as per an Ex or Natural abilities) and everything else tied to the spell would end
Would you say that if the sorcerer/barbarian/polymorphed creature picked the bloodline power/rage power/spell that they'd have the wings but be unable to fly since it'd be considered magical flight, Since the ability normally would have been gone in the AMF?
if they are SU then yes .. the Wings would disappear Since they are Granted by an SU and they would no longer be able to Fly... if they NATURALLY had Wings ... then no
Or are you proposing that all those abilities that behave oh so similarly to this situation, where it's seemingly a SP/SU granting an EX ability are doing that but that fast healing is somehow the special exception?
if they are an SU or SP or Granted By an SU or SP then yes it ceases Functioning because it was Granted by what is Magic... and that's the argument being used against it being magical healing ... not my argument... Hell Look at the description of the Spell itself ... it Says they can feel the evil of the MAGIC
Like I really can't see how you can see these and say "Yes this spell is granting magical fast healing ability", and also say, "No those spells and SU abilities are granting the normal EX versions of the ability." And not think anything of it.
Ive never said that ... I have said if its an SU or SP it is Supressed by an AMF ... Period
the logical conclusion of this debate is as soon as you start calling the fast healing Seperate from the rest of the spell - thus breaking the spell into its Components that since its an EX as per what people are saying it would continue to function in an AMFthe Fast healing working in an AMF is a thought excersise to highlight what is wrong with this argument
this Whole argument on every level can be broken down to 1 question
Is it affect by AMF
Yes - SU / SP
No - EX or Natural
There was a lot and after reading your post I feel it wasn't clear.
Your last paragraph shows you clearly don't understand. The spell, is granting an EX ability to you while it's active. If it's not active then there's nothing to give you fast healing.
If the spell was written as such. Durration instantaneous. this grants fast healing 1 for 1 minute. this fast healing can't heal some damage and makes you ping as evil. The totally, the fast healing would persist in the AMF. Since it is an EX ability granted by the spell. But since we both agree that the fast healing only persists while the spell is active your idea that because the fast healing doesn't persist in an AMF the fast healing must be a magic source has no merit. As soon as the magic granting the fast healing is gone the fast healing stops existing for your character. So the granting of the fast healing is totally a part of the spell, but the actual healing being done is the EX ability fast healing.
1)
So you're saying that a barbarian with great beast totem a SU effect that says,"the barbarian gains the pounce special ability. This also upgrades claws" is not referring to the monster universal EX ability pounce and gains that. But is a new SU ability called pounce since he would not have the pounce ability in an AMF?
Right? You're saying that his pounce ability is a SU ability and not the EX ability that we have listed in the book?
That if the barb could keep one SU or SP effect that he couldn't have both greater beast totem AND this new SU pounce ability because that is two abilities.
2)
Are you saying that a barbarian with dragon wings totem and activated the wings uses magical flight and not wing based flight. that under the fly skill it says, "If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.", "If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude." and, "If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage."
But he's good because he's using magical flight and not wings to fly? right? since it's a SU ability and not an EX ability?
cause this is the difference between magical flight or not. Magical flight doesn't need to make these checks while EX wing based flight does. Flight is listed as an SU or EX ability.
this Whole argument on every level can be broken down to 1 question
Is it affect by AMF
Yes - SU / SP
No - EX or Natural
correct. And the fast healing is not affected by AMF. The spell granting the fast healing is stopped by the AMF. Hence the fast healing is an EX given by a spell and not a SU or SP.
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There was a lot and after reading your post I feel it wasn't clear.
Your last paragraph shows you clearly don't understand. The spell, is granting an EX ability to you while it's active. If it's not active then there's nothing to give you fast healing.
If the spell was written as such. Durration instantaneous. this grants fast healing 1 for 1 minute. this fast healing can't heal some damage and makes you ping as evil. The totally, the fast healing would persist in the AMF. Since it is an EX ability granted by the spell. But since we both agree that the fast healing only persists while the spell is active your idea that because the fast healing doesn't persist in an AMF the fast healing must be a magic source has no merit. As soon as the magic granting the fast healing is gone the fast healing stops existing for your character. So the granting of the fast healing is totally a part of the spell, but the actual healing being done is the EX ability fast healing.
the logic of the argument is that fast healing is an EX and thus Not Subject to AMF and thereby Preventing iot from benifitting from the Fast healer feat thats the rabbit hole we are exploring
and the spell Does not say "While active" your words againthe inclusion of a Duration to to tie it to a spell
Makes it a magical effect -
putting it into the conjuration (healing) school
thus Making it Magical Healing (a spell as is Called out by Magical healing on page 191
the 3 parts of the Spell that all effect it Calling out that it is indeed Magic in nature because you must apply everything in the spell
by RAW - the definition of a Spell is a "one time Magical Effect" that is pretty clear cut to me .... no matter what the Spell does it is a 1 time Magical Effect, regardless of how many effects there are - they are magical, no matter what the effects are - they are magical
you Cannot have it both Ways
1)
So you're saying that a barbarian with great beast totem a SU effect that says,"the barbarian gains the pounce special ability. This also upgrades claws" is not referring to the monster universal EX ability pounce and gains that. But is a new SU ability called pounce since he would not have the pounce ability in an AMF?Right? You're saying that his pounce ability is a SU ability and not the EX ability that we have listed in the book?
That if the barb could keep one SU or SP effect that he couldn't have both greater beast totem AND this new SU pounce ability because that is two abilities.
you Said it yourself - its an SU ...
We already have precedence for Loosing access to things due to outside circumstances (ability damage causing you to no longer qualify for a feat or Loosing access to a feat causing you to loose a whole tree)since I've tried to answer this Multiple times I will ask you ...
Are SU's suppressed in an AMF?
2)
Are you saying that a barbarian with dragon wings totem and activated the wings uses magical flight and not wing based flight. that under the fly skill it says, "If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.", "If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude." and, "If you are using...
you Cannot have it Both Ways - I am Saying that if you cease to qualify to use them then they become useless
the Ability is listed as an SU
the SU allows you Manifest Wings, you enter an AMF you Loose the ability to Manifest them so they would disappear as you would cease to qualify to use them because the effect is Suppressed in an AMF
Dragon disciple Sorcerer - Wings are SU .. enter an AMF you would cease to be able to Control them since they are granted by an SU
all until you leave the AMF thats the distinction between an SP/SU and EX/Natural
question 2 had nothing to do with AMF. This just makes it look like you're not actually reading anything but just spouting off the same stuff over and over. The question is on the difference between magical flight and winged flight and making sure I understand your position.
like seriously
Q:"to clarify you're saying that the flight from the rage power is magical and that none of these winged flight situations apply."
A:"If you enter an AMF you lose the ability"
... That has nothing to do with the question.
to reiterate, this is a yes or no question.
2)
Are you saying that a barbarian with dragon wings totem and activated the wings uses magical flight and not wing based flight. that under the fly skill it says, "If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.", "If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude." and, "If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage."
But he's good because he's using magical flight and not wings to fly? right? since it's a SU ability and not an EX ability?
yes it's magical and you don't need to make the checks. No it's not magical its using wings and you need to make the checks. something else that makes it clear if the answer isn't one of those.
We already have precedence for Loosing access to things due to outside circumstances (ability damage causing you to no longer qualify for a feat or Loosing access to a feat causing you to loose a whole tree)
since I've tried to answer this Multiple times I will ask you ...
Are SU's suppressed in an AMF?
In an AMF SU abilities are suppressed. This has never been in question.
the setup
If you're using a magic item to qualify for a feat the feat is a natural or EX ability and the magic item is obviously magic.
my view
The feat is and always will be an EX ability, just because you lost the magic granting you access to the EX ability doesn't suddenly make the feat a magical ability. Yes you lose the feat in the AMF, but not because it is magic but because it's source is magic.
what it seems your view is
to decide if something is magical or not only check if it's active in a AMF. So this feat is clearly magical since it's not active in the AMF. Even though we're told this feat is normally an EX, it must be magical since you've lost use of it in the AMF.
another example, is the feat weapon focus a magical ability? I say no. But you can get weapon focus from a magical item. Since the item turns off in the AMF you lose the feat in the AMF. NOT because the feat is magical, it's still clearly a normal feat that is not magical, but because the magical source of the normal feat has been turned off.
you Said it yourself - its an SU ...
NO, I'm saying pounce is EX. Greater beast totem is SU. It really seems you're not reading my posts clearly enough to understand if you felt I said that pounce was an SU.
under your view, as I understand it, greater beast totem an SU ability, grants some new SU ability of pounce. So I am clarifying. if you maintained GBT in an AMF would pounce be disabled? Are you really saying that GBT is granting a new SU ability of pounce?
I say and feel the rules make the most sense, is that GBT a SU is granting the normal pounce ability, which is an EX ability. Thus if you somehow could keep GBT in an AMF that the pounce would work just fine as it would be an EX ability.
the 3 parts of the Spell that all effect it Calling out that it is indeed Magic in nature because you must apply everything in the spell
by RAW - the definition of a Spell is a "one time Magical Effect" that is pretty clear cut to me .... no matter what the Spell does it is a 1 time Magical Effect, regardless of how many effects there are - they are magical, no matter what the effects are - they are magical
THE SPELL IS MAGICALLY GRANTING THE FAST HEALING EX ABILITY. A MAGICAL EFFECT OF THE SPELL IS THE GRANTING OF THE EX FAST HEALING ABILITY. GRANTING EX FAST HEALING IS ONE OF THE MAGICAL EFFECTS OF THE SPELL. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT I AM IN NO WAY ALLUDING TO OR IMPLYING THAT THE GRANTING OF THE FAST HEALING IS A SEPARATE EFFECT AND NOT PART OF THE SPELL?
YES THE SPELL HAS A ONE TIME MAGICAL EFFECT, WHICH IS THE GRANTING OF AN EX ABILITY ALONG WITH THE OTHER THINGS AND YOU CAN'T SEPARATE THEM FROM EACH OTHER.
It would be quite helpful if you actual brought up evidence or arguments that we don't already agree on and give actual answers to questions and not just spot off something not even mentioned in the question.
So I guess no one noted the part where I pointed out that Fast Healing works like Natural Healing, which is healing from Rest, which is also affected by the Fast Healer feat...
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your Dismissing evidence because it does not suit your argument
and yes ... AMF is Basically the breakdown as stated here
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.
Supernatural Abilities (Su)
These can't be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don't function in antimagic areas.
Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)
These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field. Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics.
Natural Abilities
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-likr
Bolded for Contrast
well an SU is only effected by Anti Magic Areas so yes
By RAW no matter how you get it or what it gives you if an SU is Suppressed (since it cant be dispelled) you cannot use it...
and for the Record - you still have to make Fly Checks with magical Flight not sure where you got that Idea that you didnt
the setup
If you're using a magic item to qualify for a feat the feat is a natural or EX ability and the magic item is obviously magic.my view
The feat is and always will be an EX ability, just because you lost the magic granting you access to the EX ability doesn't suddenly make the feat a magical ability. Yes you lose the feat in the AMF, but not because it is magic but because it's source is magic.another example, is the feat weapon focus a magical ability? I say no. But you can get weapon focus from a magical item. Since the item turns off in the AMF you lose the feat in the AMF. NOT because the feat is magical, it's still clearly a normal feat that is not magical, but because the magical source of the normal feat has been turned off.
Exactly ... the Source is Magical therefore you Loose them because how you gained them is no longer Valid
Wings(SU)
Greater Beatst Totem(Su)
Dragon Totem Wings(Su)
Regardless of how or Why in an AMF you cant use them
NO, I'm saying pounce is EX. Greater beast totem is SU. It really seems you're not reading my posts clearly enough to understand if you felt I said that pounce was an SU.under your view, as I understand it, greater beast totem an SU ability, grants some new SU ability of pounce. So I am clarifying. if you maintained GBT in an AMF would pounce be disabled? Are you really saying that GBT is granting a new SU ability of pounce?
I say and feel the rules make the most sense, is that GBT a SU is granting the normal pounce ability, which is an EX ability. Thus if you somehow could keep GBT in an AMF that the pounce would work just fine as it would be an EX ability.
Allow me to Clarify
your statment that it is an EX is Absolutely Irelavent to me - the Ability is an SU on paper in the book its in Reads XXXX(Su) - thats all I care about for the purpose of this Discussion because when it comes to AMF thats all that matters
THE SPELL IS MAGICALLY GRANTING THE FAST HEALING EX ABILITY.
A MAGICAL EFFECT OF THE SPELL IS THE GRANTING OF THE EX FAST HEALING ABILITY.
GRANTING EX FAST HEALING IS ONE OF THE MAGICAL EFFECTS OF THE SPELL. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT I AM IN NO WAY ALLUDING TO OR IMPLYING THAT THE GRANTING OF THE FAST HEALING IS A SEPARATE EFFECT AND NOT PART OF THE SPELL?
you are saying that 2 parts of the Spell are Magical and 1 is not your ignoring that the person Cast on can "Feel the Evil of the Magic" (says it Right there in the Spell description that its Magical)
So I guess no one noted the part where I pointed out that Fast Healing works like Natural Healing, which is healing from Rest, which is also affected by the Fast Healer feat...
no I saw
sad as it is this is a PFS Argument and as much as I hate to say it the Spell Specifically calls out Rest ... not Natural healing and all Natural healing says in the crb is Rest ... then we have the lineExcept where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing which really does nothing
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$!@#$%!@ Lost my edit ... ugh what a pisser
as for Flight -
Technically Flight Doesn't care how you got it Since SU Flight ends in an AMF
it also doesn't care how it ends
so as for your pigeon hole TECHNICALLY (Sure its a stretch)any Flight that ends in an AMF would be Su
THE SPELL IS MAGICALLY GRANTING THE FAST HEALING EX ABILITY.
A MAGICAL EFFECT OF THE SPELL IS THE GRANTING OF THE EX FAST HEALING ABILITY.
GRANTING EX FAST HEALING IS ONE OF THE MAGICAL EFFECTS OF THE SPELL.DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT I AM IN NO WAY ALLUDING TO OR IMPLYING THAT THE GRANTING OF THE FAST HEALING IS A SEPARATE EFFECT AND NOT PART OF THE SPELL?
YES THE SPELL HAS A ONE TIME MAGICAL EFFECT, WHICH IS THE GRANTING OF AN EX ABILITY ALONG WITH THE OTHER THINGS AND YOU CAN'T SEPARATE THEM FROM EACH OTHER.
Yes I understand that you are in no way alluding to the fast healing being a separate effect
But
Fast Healing (ex) Heals Damage from Silver or Good Aligned effects
Fast Healing (ex) does not make you feel the evil of the Magic
Fast Healing (ex) Does not make you detect as evil
the Spell Creates all 3 Effects Simultaneously, and as we have discussed you cannot end 1 piece without the others
Because of the Change in what it can / cannot heal it is Not Fast healing (ex) Since Fast Healing (ex) doesnt care what did the damage
Its been Modified to something that doesn't exist in the Universal Monster Rules regardless of how much you want it to Fit
the Spell also does not Say Fast Healing (ex) when all other instances of Fast healing that I have found so far (and there are probably many more) DO Clarify as an (ex) by RAW this one Does not
- interesting Note .. I'll have to check if there are any other abilities from this particular book that grant Fast healing ... that would Solve the soon to come Editing Error argument
Edit only thing I found was Red Shroud from the RMA which is an SU
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No, since the effect has a duration and is affected by SR. The fast healing itself would not be magical as it is an EX ability. But, the spell is what is giving you the EX ability.Fast healing is an EX ability, so the spell is giving you a short term EX ability and thus fast healer doesn't help.So the Fast Healing granted by Infernal Healing persists even if you enter an antimagic field?
That is some serious mental gymnastics to not make this work. If something is not magical enough to qualify for Fast Healer but is for a bloody antimagic zone, I call b@&%%%@!. This is a spell that is granting fast healing. That means the source is magical. That means Fast Healer ticks at least once. How many times is debatable but I would definitely consider it a instance of magical healing.
And, as pointed out elsewhere, not all souces of Fast Healing are (Ex), so the argument is pointless. While most creatures that possess it do so as a (Ex) ability, this doesn't mean every instantance of it has to be, or else the eidolon's fast healing is a (Sp) ability granting a (Ex) ability, and that is just...very silly.
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Wow. EX is able to work in AMF but SU does not. That is good to know. Thank you, Wraith
Simple things here from my point of view.
- the EX ability "Fast Healing" that one would already have (monster ability) would work in AMF.
- The Su ability of the Eidolon Evolution would not work in AMF.
- The Spell effect of Infernal Healing would not work in AMF.
that is my take.
So I guess no one noted the part where I pointed out that Fast Healing works like Natural Healing, which is healing from Rest, which is also affected by the Fast Healer feat...no I saw
sad as it is this is a PFS Argument and as much as I hate to say it the Spell Specifically calls out Rest ... not Natural healing and all Natural healing says in the crb is Rest ... then we have the line
Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing which really does nothing
I see your reasoning here, but I would respectfully point out that if Fast Healing says it works like Natural Healing, and Natural Healing contains only information concerning Rest, then it isn't all that far a leap to assume that Fast Healing directly relates to Rest.
As a side note, as far as I know this is not a PFS Argument as this thread is located in Rules Questions, not in Pathfinder Society.
I do get what you are saying though. It would be nice if we could get a FAQ on what, exactly, constitutes Natural Healing.
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ya know, if you have to resort to all caps or interesting symbols it might be time to take a step back from posting. It's just people's opinions and posting it doesn't make it correct.
sorry for the use of interesting Symbols ... those were aimed at myself since I lost an edit I had been working on for a while ... didnt know the site had an hour limit on edit
I see your reasoning here, but I would respectfully point out that if Fast Healing says it works like Natural Healing, and Natural Healing contains only information concerning Rest, then it isn't all that far a leap to assume that Fast Healing directly relates to Rest.
As a side note, as far as I know this is not a PFS Argument as this thread is located in Rules Questions, not in Pathfinder Society.
I do get what you are saying though. It would be nice if we could get a FAQ on what, exactly, constitutes Natural Healing.
Forgive me I and allow me to Reclarify
Mine and chess's involvement in this is Seeded in PFS is what I Should have said - it is a rules issue to be sure and due to the involvement of PFS requires a different type of diligence in debate since we should all be using the same Rules
and yes .. it should be that simple .. but the argument that would be used against it is "Thats 1 way of getting natural healing" but yes - I agree with you
I'm dropping out after this unless I see a productive response, in which case I may respond to that post. Because if people are going to continue to misrepresent my view and continue refusing to answer my questions and are just posting random stuff that they believe in as a response to my direct questions then there's no point for me to continue, as it's no longer a discussion.
@Garbage-Tier Waifu
Yes, all SP and SU abilities are granting EX fast healing, as they all say they are giving/granting/etc fasting healing.
Draconic bloodline wings are a SU ability giving EX winged flight.
Dragon wings totem rage power is a SU ability giving EX winged flight.
Greater beast totem rage power is a SU ability giving EX pounce.
Animal shape is a SP ability giving out EX flight, burrow, earth-glide etc.
Wild shape is a SU ability giving out EX flight, burrow, earth-glide, Regeneration*
So while Yes, you can't do any of those things in an AMF, it's not because the abilities themselves would be turned off, but the source granting these abilities has been turned off.
I feel this is the correct way because I don't believe that the universal monster rules would have such a big list and list if everything is EX or SU and then have many abilities reference that list but but be a different type. If pounce and fast healing and etc. were meant to be possible to have as SU abilities that they would have listed it as such.
Because otherwise one is creating new abilities of SU pounce, SU burrow, SU earth-glide. That many abilities, dragon wings, rage wings, polymorph spells, are granting magical flight, so they don't have to make the fly checks that winged flight needs to make. Yes there are fly checks that both kinds need to make, but I quoted 3 different times a winged flier would need to make a check while a magical flier wouldn't. And having a simple yes no question about this confirming that this is what certain posters mean, seems to be beyond some peoples capacity or willingness to answer.
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this is a thread about infernal healing and fast healing
not Flight,Pounce, Wildshape, Beast Shape, Plant Shape, Form of the Dragon, Barbarians, Sorcerers, or any other Straw-Man you Want to introduce
the problem Chess is 95%+ of your entire argument is a Straw-man and Im ashamed with myself for falling for it .. I should have realized much Sooner that that is what you were doing
by RAW Infernal healing Meets All Critera for being a Magical Healing
as has been pointed out many times ..
as I noted in my last Response the fast healing granted by the spell does NOT meet the Criteria for an (Ex) because there are certain Wounds it Wont heal - that is a Fundamental Difference that does not meet with Fast healing as presented in the Universal Monster Rules