Confusion over Improved Familiar


Rules Questions


I'm looking at the Improved Familiar feat and it says that:

Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: if the creature's type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate).

That seems to say that you would follow the normal rules for familiar advancement, i.e. they effectively have your number of HD, they grant bonus feats like Alertness, their natural armor bonus increases, etc. Looking at it, however, I'm not sure that makes sense. Let's say that I select a Faerie Dragon - if his effective Hit Dice go up, does that mean his ability to cast spells as a Sorcerer progresses as well? Does he gain additional skill ranks and/or feats? What about the DC for his breath weapon? A Faerie Dragon has an Intelligence score of 16, but the 'rules for regular familiars' dictates that at 7th level he would have an Intelligence score of 9 - did he suddenly get much dumber through association with me? If so, does he lose skill ranks, and if not, then does he gain the increase in natural armor that's universally shown on the exact same table? If they don't gain those abilities of 'regular familiars', then can they still somehow qualify for familiar archetypes that alter or replace those abilities?

I've got two PC's in my group who just took improved familiars and I could really use some help in clarifying the rules so that any potential arguments could be settled beforehand.


Familiars do not get your HD, they are merely treated as such for effects that depend on HD. That means things like sleep spells that affect some HD of creatures, not their own powers. The faerie dragon's sorcerer levels, skill ranks, feats, and breath weapon DC are all static.

I believe the general consensus on Int is that the regular table is meant to be an "at least" and not an "exactly," so that you get whichever is better. RAW are ambiguous, but frankly a GM would have to be kind of a dick to make an improved familiar get dumber like that.


The most important miss-able thing about Improved Familiars is that, under RAW, they do not qualify for most familiar archetypes since those mostly trade away "speak with animals of its own kind," which Improved Familiars don't get (as you quoted). They can still be Sages and Emissaries; offhand I think that's it. (I believe a lot of GMs hand-wave away that requirement, though.)


I am not a great authority on Familiars but here is how i understand it.

An improved familiar still grants alertness but not any familiar specific boost, such as +4 Initiative or +3 Perception as so many popular baseline familiars do.

Spell casting progression for many monsters is not exactly tied to HD, a 3 HD monster may cast as a 6th level sorcerer but only have 3/day abilities. Saves will be dependent on the familiar stats however and those do change based on the PC's level.

Familiars gain no skills per level without a special exception such as the Sage Archetype. They have starting skills as per their creature entry and gain bonus skill ranks for their Int Mod which does go up by PC level.

Assume Familiar is a template that you apply to a base creature, Yes the Faerie Dragon normally has a higher intelligence score but when you apply the Familiar "template" to it, it instead changes to the normal progression for Familiar. It would use the new ability modifier for int based skills.


1-Only his HD increases, not his caster level

2-Familiars have either your skill ranks or their base skill ranks in each individual skill, whichever is better, and do not gain skill ranks per HD. They always use their ability scores no matter what.

3-The DC for his special abilities based on HD improve such as for his breath weapon

4-This I'm actually not sure about. I'd imagine that there's a rule somewhere that says it either goes off the table or it takes its base whichever is higher but I can't find it right now.

5-He'll get the natural armor bonus no matter what

6-Improved Familiars don't qualify for most archetypes because they lose Speak with Animals of their Kind. Improved Familiars can still be School Familiars, Sage Familiars, Emissaries, Bloodline Familiars, or Patron Familiars.

Liberty's Edge

Story Archer wrote:
Let's say that I select a Faerie Dragon - if his effective Hit Dice go up, does that mean his ability to cast spells as a Sorcerer progresses as well?

No. Basically this is the familiar's HD for spells that affect up to a certain number of HD and similar effects. Most GMs allow the familiar to use actual HD if it is higher.

Quote:
Does he gain additional skill ranks and/or feats?

No, but if the bonded character's skill points (which DO go up) in a particular skill are higher he can use those.

Quote:
What about the DC for his breath weapon?

No change.

Quote:
A Faerie Dragon has an Intelligence score of 16, but the 'rules for regular familiars' dictates that at 7th level he would have an Intelligence score of 9 - did he suddenly get much dumber through association with me?

There is some dispute on this, but in my experience most GMs give you whichever of the two values is higher.

Quote:
If so, does he lose skill ranks, and if not, then does he gain the increase in natural armor that's universally shown on the exact same table?

A GM who ruled intelligence drops may or may not also rule that skills decrease. Natural Armor bonus is gained by all familiars.

Quote:
If they don't gain those abilities of 'regular familiars', then can they still somehow qualify for familiar archetypes that alter or replace those abilities?

Most GMs do not allow them to use familiar archetypes that trade out an ability the improved familiar does not have. Indeed, most of the familiar archetypes swap out 'speak with animals of kind'... and thus are unavailable to improved familiars because they don't get that ability.

Quote:
I've got two PC's in my group who just took improved familiars and I could really use some help in clarifying the rules so that any potential arguments could be settled beforehand.

A lot of this is left to the GM... so it is really your call.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

My group has always taken "effects related to HD" to include save DCs of special abilities - in general they are still never going to be "good" save DCs.

We also take the higher of the base creature's Int and what the table gives.

You definitely get the natural armor bonus and other abilities listed on the table.

The Concordance

A special ability's save DC (like a Breath Weapon) is an effect that depends on HD no? So it should increase as the familiar advances.

Liberty's Edge

ShieldLawrence wrote:
A special ability's save DC (like a Breath Weapon) is an effect that depends on HD no? So it should increase as the familiar advances.

Hit points, skills, feats, spells, creature size, creature BAB, and a hundred other things 'depend on HD'.

However, that isn't what the line in the familiar description is referring to. Rather, it is saying that this is the familiar's HD for the purposes of RESISTING effects that depend on HD which are targeted at it.

If we treat it as HD for BENEFITS the familiar gains then familiars become vastly more powerful. Potentially more so than animal companions.

This was not the intent.


Torbyne wrote:
An improved familiar still grants alertness but not any familiar specific boost, such as +4 Initiative or +3 Perception as so many popular baseline familiars do.

(emphasis added)

Actually, whether the templated (celestial/infernal/resolute/entropic) versions of normal familiars still grant the latter's skill/whatever bonus is hotly debated. (I say Yes but I don't feel that strongly about it.)


CBDunkerson wrote:
ShieldLawrence wrote:
A special ability's save DC (like a Breath Weapon) is an effect that depends on HD no? So it should increase as the familiar advances.

Hit points, skills, feats, spells, creature size, creature BAB, and a hundred other things 'depend on HD'.

However, that isn't what the line in the familiar description is referring to. Rather, it is saying that this is the familiar's HD for the purposes of RESISTING effects that depend on HD which are targeted at it.

If we treat it as HD for BENEFITS the familiar gains then familiars become vastly more powerful. Potentially more so than animal companions.

This was not the intent.

To the best of my knowledge, this has never been settled with even the developers disagreeing on the rule. Has anyone seen a definitive answer? Otherwise it comes down to a GM call.

Liberty's Edge

Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, this has never been settled with even the developers disagreeing on the rule. Has anyone seen a definitive answer? Otherwise it comes down to a GM call.

It ALWAYS comes down to a GM call.

That said, we know that many things (e.g. skills, feats, size, BAB) which depend on HD do NOT increase as a familiar's 'effective HD' increases. To assume that there is some undefined subset of benefits which DO increase thus seems illogical to me. These benefits would have to be spelled out. Instead, we have;

"A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, hit dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was..."

Familiars retain their normal HD. The separate HD entry pertains only to their resistance to effects based on HD... so that a 20th level Wizard's familiar can't be automatically taken out by a low level spell. For everything else you use the real (very low) HD.


It's quite easy:

Every improved familiar stays as it is, except that it may change:

- its base Save if yours or his is better + its Ability Modifiers
- Natural Armor Bonuses
- Intelligence for me at least, it's pretty clear, it should be the Imp Familiar one, if it's higher
- Ranks, if you have more, use that, if you don't, use its. You do have to consider the familiar Class Skills. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills. Imp Familiar might get new ones as well.
I think it's assumed that if you have 1 rank in acrobatics, your familiar will get 1 Rank + 3 Class Skill + DEX.
- BAB user yours

Side Note = most familiar can use Wands through UMD. In the case of Faerie Dragon. It is treated as a Sorcerer of X level (can't rembember), so it's possible to cast some spells without any need of UMD checks.

Archetypes= Only 2, Emissary, Sage.

IMO Sage
Additionally, a sage gains 2 skill ranks at each level.
Gets 2 skill points each level you advance, ignoring its INT modifier. I consider it this way because familiar never gain new levels. It's always dependent on your own level. If you leave that familiar, and Slow, the stupid Wizard gets it as a level 1 Wizard, it will suddenly be a more stupid version of yours.
If familiars do no get levels they shouldn't benefit or be penalized by increased in INT. IE=if you give a familiar a Headband of Intellect it should only gain 1 rank, its level is only 1 after all.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder uses a standard 'whichever is better' rule unless the ability says otherwise. Such as the Sage Archetype...
"Dazzling Intellect (Ex): A sage’s Intelligence score is always equal to 5 + its level, but the sage gains the additional natural armor increases of a familiar only half its level. This ability alters the familiar’s Intelligence score and natural armor adjustment."
or the Mauler Archetype
"As a result of this ability, the familiar’s Intelligence score remains 6; a mauler can never have an Intelligence score higher than 6."

There are Dev posts out there that explain this. As well as the fact that the HD increase is only related to exterior effects(such as sleep) and does not affect interior effects(like breath weapons).

No where does it say that a celestial scorpion still gives you +4 init but it doesn't say anything against it either... but I don't think I'd sit twice at a GMs table who rules it does not. It is only adding a template which should not take away a separate ability, as is standard for templates. The scorpion base creature gives the ability. So a celestial should as well. Unless you would also rule a celestial rhino loses powerful charge. Same level of ridiculousness.

Familiars do not gain their own skill points or feats as their HD never actually changes. Though, some class archetypes (notably witch and fighter) do give familiars some feats. And skill ranks are shared from the master to the familiar, using the familiar's stats and racials.

You can not take an archetype that replaces or alters an ability you do not have, as is standard for archetyping in Pathfinder. So, an improved familiar is not allowed to take any archetype except sage or Emissary.


Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
ShieldLawrence wrote:
A special ability's save DC (like a Breath Weapon) is an effect that depends on HD no? So it should increase as the familiar advances.

Hit points, skills, feats, spells, creature size, creature BAB, and a hundred other things 'depend on HD'.

However, that isn't what the line in the familiar description is referring to. Rather, it is saying that this is the familiar's HD for the purposes of RESISTING effects that depend on HD which are targeted at it.

If we treat it as HD for BENEFITS the familiar gains then familiars become vastly more powerful. Potentially more so than animal companions.

This was not the intent.

To the best of my knowledge, this has never been settled with even the developers disagreeing on the rule. Has anyone seen a definitive answer? Otherwise it comes down to a GM call.

James Jacobs' unofficial opinion was that abilities didn't scale, but Sean K. Reynolds' unofficial opinion was the opposite. That the Paizo design team subsequently did decide to errata the silvanshee's lay on hands ability so that it would not increase, strongly suggests to me that they agreed with SKR that the rules do allow some HD based abilities to scale. If they believed otherwise then I don't see any reason for the errata.

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