General Swashbuckler advice?


Advice


Plotting out the future development of a swashbuckler, and wondering about some feat choices.

To start, Superior Feint versus the Greater Feint feat tree. The former is class ability, and thus no-cost, but requires a standard action. That means no attack for that round, though I can still gain the benefit when using OPaR or AoOs that round. The latter is move action (which can be further paid off with one magic item), so I still get my attack that round. But the cost is three feats (and a level dip to get two of them, at that) and that's kind of stiff, even if I don't consider the required Combat Expertise feat to be a tax.

Seriously considering Superior Feint at the best choice here, but I'd like an experienced opinion (or five) before finalizing.

Next, Vital Strike. The party is very light on heavy hitters (seriously, my Fencing Grace swashbuckler is currently second in potential non-spell DPR right now, not counting situational boosts like sneak attack). And I'm going to try my best to stick and move, and so will usually have just a single attack available each round. So Vital Strike holds some appeal. But I see lots of stuff about it being a trap feat that looks better than it really is. The flip side of those arguments, however, is that virtually all of them are made in the context of a Power Attacking, two-handed (or two-weapon) wielding meat wall standing there and trading full-attack chops with the target until someone dies.

But even so, if there is a viable alternative to Vital Strike for a full Dex-based, single weapon melee type, I'd love to know about it. More options are never a bad thing.


Feinting isn't super useful for a swashbuckler. I mean I guess if you're going at it to be a team buff, but seems like a lot of work for not a ton of benefits.

Your swash should be near the top of the DPR. You're a full-bab martial class, damage is your thing.

Vital strike is 1 feat that is adding 1d6 damage, that's an average of 3.5 damage per hit. And it's only if you move and attack. most of the time there are better feats than getting 3.5 damage.

How are you planning on doing your stick and move? You move in and attack and then you're sitting next to the guy. Why would you be regularly leaving your next round if he's still alive?

What feats do you have now?

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So the simple truth of the swashbuckler class (as well as the gunslinger class) is that roughly 2/3s of the deeds aren't worth the action economy cost of using them, and the nearly all of the deeds that are strong options either come online too late or require tons of feats (which the swashbuckler really doesn't have many of) in order to make useful. The only exception to those statements are opportune parry and riposte and precise strike, and precise strike makes it impossible to deal competitive damage by practically forbidding two weapon fighting with the class.

As someone who's played swashbuckler to 5th level, your best bet is to just not play the swashbuckler class. The unchained rogue can do just about everything the swashbuckler can do but better, and does it while dealing a massive amount of damage. The only place where the swashbuckler wins is in base attack bonus, and that's arguably not important for a character class that's built around catching foes flat-footed or otherwise surprised.

If you insist on being a swashbuckler, the class loses all luster beyond 5th level, when it gains swashbuckler weapon training. Improved Critical with every weapon in your arsenal is a powerful tool, but once you get that there isn't a compelling reasons to stay in the class (and you can arguably do the same thing earlier by taking one levels of swashbuckler and going all-in with the occultist class, since the transmutation focus power will eventually let you put keen on your weapon whenever you want it).

Currently, the best swashbuckler builds do swashbuckler 5 / anything else X. Fighter (weapon master) is a common choice because it gives you attack bonuses quickly and nets you early access into Advanced Weapon Training abilities, but unchained rogue is a compelling choice because it'll actually get you Dexterity to damage. (The swashbuckler can't do that without a feat, and the swashbuckler gets fewer feats over its levels than the warpriest or brawler, meaning that what you have is sacred.)

But in all honesty, I wouldn't recommend the swashbuckler class to anyone.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Feinting isn't super useful for a swashbuckler. I mean I guess if you're going at it to be a team buff, but seems like a lot of work for not a ton of benefits.

Your swash should be near the top of the DPR. You're a full-bab martial class, damage is your thing.

Vital strike is 1 feat that is adding 1d6 damage, that's an average of 3.5 damage per hit. And it's only if you move and attack. most of the time there are better feats than getting 3.5 damage.

How are you planning on doing your stick and move? You move in and attack and then you're sitting next to the guy. Why would you be regularly leaving your next round if he's still alive?

What feats do you have now?

Feinting for party benefit is precisely the reason. If my swashbuckler can strip targets of their Dex bonus to AC for a bit, the party rogue is going to be very happy, not to mention letting the others with melee capability improve their chances of landing a good hit. I'm willing to eat the feat cost to provide that benefit, if I have to, unless Superior Feint is the better choice.

Stick and move is going to be via the Lunge feat, 5-foot steps, Dodging Panache, and whatever else I can finagle. If I have to stay close, though, then so be it; this is why I ask about that Vital Strike.

Current feats are Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw, and Fencing Grace, with Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus as bonus feats from the Inspired Blade archetype. Quick Draw is in there because he'll eventually spend 3-4 feats on Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot (and possbly Rapid Shot) and whip daggers at targets while he closes to melee range (with Opening Volley to make it just a bit better).

Scarab Sages

Sam C. wrote:


Feinting for party benefit is precisely the reason. If my swashbuckler can strip targets of their Dex bonus to AC for a bit, the party rogue is going to be very happy, not to mention letting the others with melee capability improve their chances of landing a good hit. I'm willing to eat the feat cost to provide that benefit, if I have to, unless Superior Feint is the better choice.

Feinting does nothing for the party, it only effect attacks made by you.

Feint wrote:
If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

The only way your team benefits is if you all have the Feint Partner teamwork feat.


eventually spending 3-4 feats and thinking of taking 3 more feats? This wont all come together till very high levels, and sounds painful getting there. Out of your suggested ideas, superior feint is the better choice.

You have proficiency with a bow, use that as your ranged option. It'll cost you 0 feats and it'll be your good backup ranged weapon.
Cause a dagger has range 10ft, max is 50ft with major penalties. You can charge that far. A dagger build that isn't planning it from lv1 isn't going to work. Bow will shoot 100ft no penalties. Since they are at ranged there wont be anyone near them to give cover or in combat bonus so you don't need any feat support for it.

All the things you listed for your "stick and move" are all things that let you full attack. Lunge wont be super useful as you'll only be using it when full attacking and you drop someone and want to try and 5ft and lunge to reach someone else. Otherwise lunge is just lowering your AC for basically nothing. As if you move and lunge then they 5ft step into you and full attack you and now you're next to them.

I agree with Alexander that another class would probably do better at what you're trying to do.


Imbicatus wrote:
Sam C. wrote:


Feinting for party benefit is precisely the reason. If my swashbuckler can strip targets of their Dex bonus to AC for a bit, the party rogue is going to be very happy, not to mention letting the others with melee capability improve their chances of landing a good hit. I'm willing to eat the feat cost to provide that benefit, if I have to, unless Superior Feint is the better choice.

Feinting does nothing for the party, it only effect attacks made by you.

Feint wrote:
If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
The only way your team benefits is if you all have the Feint Partner teamwork feat.

If I was referring to feint via Bluff alone, you would be correct. However, I am referring to this. The Superior Feint class ability is similar, barring a few mechanical details, and the ability does not make any mention at all that the benefits apply only to the swashbuckler alone.


@Alexander Augunas: I know the pure swashbuckler isn't the best class, I have seen the various optimization builds while googling in search of answers to my assorted questions.

My response is as follows; I'm playing it because it seems fun, not because of the numbers that it does or doesn't grant. While I have no objection to optimizing a class, or even dipping a couple of levels elsewhere for that one little thing, part of the entertainment I derive is working with, or creatively around, the disadvantages a class comes with. If I want some ruthlessly tweaked killer that drops a bucket worth of dice on the table with every action, I can fire up a console or PC game, slap on a god-mode cheat, and be bored in 10 minutes. Sure as hell be cheaper and faster than this, yeah?

So while swashbuckler 5/anything else X, or anything else X alone, may be what the numbers recommend, my desire to have fun shudders in revulsion at the prospect. That's not to say I won't give it a go in the future, outlooks change and variety is the spice of life and all that, but today? Well today, I'd like to know if Vital Strike is a good choice for a swashbuckler. I'll put you down for a 'no.'

@Chess Pwn: Bows are an issue. The campaign world is a post-apolyptic setting, and one of the conceits is the ragged chunks of what's left don't get a lot (read: none at all) of sunlight anymore. My human character had damn good reason to celebrate getting Darkvision, 60 ft. as a randomly-rolled campaign benefit. So yes, bow have better range increments, and more of them, but he can't really use them to full advantage as it stands. The other issue is weight and supply. No more stores (or much of anything else either, for that matter) means we have to haul everything we need, and arrows get heavy. Bolts aren't much better in that regard. And daggers are compatible with Weapon Finesse, less likely to break or get lost, and possible easier to replace as well, depending on what metal scrap the party finds.

Believe me, I thought long and hard on the merits of daggers versus any other ranged weapon at all, and daggers eventually came up as the best choice, in light of the campaign. That being the case, might as well be some good with them, so feats.

Liberty's Edge

Don't want to be super negative or anything, but it is helpful when asking for advice to mention if the campaign differs highly from the standard pathfinder assumption, which it seems like your campaign does. So, being a post-apocalyptic game, should we assume that it's also a low magic campaign, with very little access to magic items? Because I've found swordmaster's flair to be an almost mandatory item for swashbucklers, but if you don't have access you'll likely have to make due with lunge.

Scarab Sages

On the other hand, lunge is a pretty good feat to take, and a swashbuckler can really benefit from outslug style to make lunge better.


outslug needs to be a close weapon, which is not what a rapier is.
If the range is 60ft then you never need a ranged weapon as you can get into melee at that range.

Scarab Sages

No, but a cestus is, and is almost as good as a rapier to a swashbuckler.


Deighton Thrane wrote:
Don't want to be super negative or anything, but it is helpful when asking for advice to mention if the campaign differs highly from the standard pathfinder assumption, which it seems like your campaign does. So, being a post-apocalyptic game, should we assume that it's also a low magic campaign, with very little access to magic items? Because I've found swordmaster's flair to be an almost mandatory item for swashbucklers, but if you don't have access you'll likely have to make due with lunge.

Yeah, that was my fault for not mentioning, feel kind of silly for not specifying from the start that I didn't just choose daggers over bows with a slip of paper out of a hat :D. In regards to the Feint and Vital Strike, however, I didn't think it mattered. Apologies.

And magic is low to moderate. No corner stores, and even a humble wand meant something, but there are two 0-level campaign spells that allow the party to cannabalize a specific type of magical handwavium from select enemies and use said handwavium to improve our own gear. The basics are that each party member starts with one piece of gear of suitable quality to accept enhancement, and other gear may be found in the rubble, looted, or made. The actual enhancement result, by player-decide vote beforehand, is a set +1 increase to a relevant statistic (save, ability, etc.) and a GM-selected secondary benefit. (We got offered the standard PF magic item creation rules, but the other choice was considered by all to be more interesting.)

So things like those flairs may not be doable, and that's also why I got Fencing Grace as well; the Agile property may not be available either.


Imbicatus wrote:
No, but a cestus is, and is almost as good as a rapier to a swashbuckler.

not if you're an Inspired Blade with Fencing Grace.


The Outslug Style is pretty neat, thanks for the mentioning it, even if it can't be used with a rapier.


I think someone could still make a very strong flying blade. Even better with starry grace.


A bit of reading leads me to the Critical feats as one possible alternative for the Vital Strike set of feats.

Critical Focus and Bleeding Critical to start. Then Weapon Specialization for the rapier, followed by Impaling Critical and--if Impaling Critical meets the requirements as I think it does--Critical Mastery. Same number of feats as the Vital Strike set and stacks nicely with the Improved Critical granted by the swashbuckler's (inspired blade's) weapon training. Once the rapier is stuck in good and proper, there are two ways to go.

1) Pick up Dodge, Weapon Focus (dagger), and Close-Quarters Thrower, then start pegging the target with thrown daggers at basically no range while holding on to the rapier for extra damage. Add a blinkback belt for more fun. Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot are all still of value here, but Far Shot can maybe go away. Fencing Grace is obviously suppressed while then daggers are in use, but would merely holding the rapier while using the daggers qualify as TWF?

2) Release the rapier (this very much mandates the Called property, and wouldn't be an option without it), step back a bit, then start flinging daggers at a range of 10 feet (with the blinkback belt, of course). Doesn't need Dodge, Weapon Focus, or Close-Quarters Thrower, but the ranged feats mentioned above are still good (and Far Shot is, again, maybe a choice for replacement). When the rapier gets pulled out by the victim, Call it back to hand, toss a dagger for Opening Volley, and start the carousel of pain all over again as soon as I can peg another rapier critical.

Whether 1 or 2, target gets stuck for extra damage, bled for more, and hit with a steady stream of daggers in the bargain. Sure, daggers are nickle-and-dime damage at best, but they'll add up over a round's worth of attacks.


I don't understand you. I really don't get what you're seeing about throwing daggers

You're either melee attacking with your rapier that is really good.
OR
You're do ranged attacks that are really poor.

And you're wanting to focus on doing the second one now?
If you're stepping back 10ft then you could have stepped forwards and used your rapier. And likely the enemy will be next to you so you can't get out to 10ft.
And are you going to be able to get a blinkback belt with your magic item rules?


Rule 1 of Swashbuckler: Pick an archetype and weapon(s) and dedicate to them.

Seriously, Alex has good advise, but more than that I think you have to pick an archetype and weapon that go together. The price of specializing is surprisingly low with several benefits depending on the combination. If you want to throw, then focus on daggers and Flying Blade. If you want to use a rapier, focus on Inspired Blade.

If you want to do both... a Duelist is better but requires a lot for an underwhelming PrC.

Unfortunately, dedicating to multiple weapons is not currently well supported. It either requires too much feat investment, or ignoring weapon focus and co. It would be nice if some designers changed that... *coughs in someone's general direction*1PFeatforgetting2-3weaponsoneachofthosefeats?*continues coughing*


So, basically, "screw fun, play the numbers" is the consensus here? That's the impression I'm getting as far as the swashbuckler goes. Dump stat anything that isn't Charisma and Dexterity, slap on Diplomacy and Perception, and away we go!

Well, that's a rather disappointing view of things, to be honest. Look, I know that my build isn't optimum. I am fully aware of this. I acknowledge that my desire to throw a damn knife, and do so with a measure of effectiveness, comes at the cost of swinging that rapier like a veritable god among swashbucklers. For good or ill in the campaign, that's my lookout. All I would like to know is, is Vital Strike and its associated feats a good choice for a swashbuckler? Now, since the answer to that is apparently "no," what would a good set of feats, that isn't TWF, to fill, roughly, 5-8 available slots?


You need critical feats at higher levels. And you can stack them because you're kinda fighter.
You can also focus on your opportunate parry and riposte deed since it's kinda the only good thing you have.

The worst thing about swashbuckler is that he has no apparent role. Dealing damage is the only thing he can. But he does it not so good. At least worse than other melee fighters.
To add insult to injury: Daring Champion archetype for Cavalier can have all the good things that Swashbuckler has, but still keep all his class features.


Sam C. wrote:

So, basically, "screw fun, play the numbers" is the consensus here? That's the impression I'm getting as far as the swashbuckler goes. Dump stat anything that isn't Charisma and Dexterity, slap on Diplomacy and Perception, and away we go!

Well, that's a rather disappointing view of things, to be honest. Look, I know that my build isn't optimum. I am fully aware of this. I acknowledge that my desire to throw a damn knife, and do so with a measure of effectiveness, comes at the cost of swinging that rapier like a veritable god among swashbucklers. For good or ill in the campaign, that's my lookout. All I would like to know is, is Vital Strike and its associated feats a good choice for a swashbuckler? Now, since the answer to that is apparently "no," what would a good set of feats, that isn't TWF, to fill, roughly, 5-8 available slots?

Some people find a lot of fun in making a build come together. Others find their fun diminished when they can't contribute meaningfully.

At the end of the day, you asked for "General Swashbuckler Advise" and that's the advise that exists. We can't quantify fun. The Swashbuckler as a class is built so that you can't have a "measure of effectiveness" while throwing a knife AND using a Rapier. There just doesn't currently exist an effective way to do what you want without house rules or GM intervention. (I.E. You could ask your GM if Swashbuckler Weapon Training lets you pull double time on feats like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.)

The Vigilante could probably pull off both dagger and rapier. For a Swashbuckler though, it's not so much about not being amazing at swinging a rapier as it is being rather terrible comparatively at swinging a rapier. Honestly, I would just drop the rapier and focus on the dagger. The rapier will just be a money and feat sink for a small crit range increase and average of 1 damage. Not really worth it.

In general, Vital Strike's feat chain is considered poor. However, for a throwing build Startoss Style is a godsend of friendly saving throw feats and the following feats in that chain do benefit from Vital Strike. If you go the Flying Blade route you will make for a decent thrower who can also strike from time to time in combat.

Some basic feats to consider:
Combat Reflexes
Deadly Aim/Piranha Strike
X Grace
Point Blank Master (If throwing)
Signature Deed

Personal nice things:
Quick Draw
Osyluth Guile
Equipment Trick (Cloak) (Fun, flavorful, and somewhat useful!)
Eldritch Heritage
Deific Obedience
Celestial Obedience

Grand Lodge

Strike from time to time in combat? As a flying blade? Mine intentionally provokes attacks of opportunity to do more damage, or did you not read disrupting counter? Mine uses startoss to injure a couple of enemies and with disrupting counter and a fortuitous weapon... Typically kills something and gets the panache back if they try to attack him.

And it's humorous to do d4 ... +30.


Thanks for the advice. I think I've figured out a build that works for me.

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