I am building an archer that harm channels (daze) as a move action, cast divine favor (standard action) and boost his AC +4 (swift) the first round. Afterwards he focuses his attention on attacking dazed/intimidated foe.
Looking for suggestion on improving the build (equipment, feats, etc...)
Race: Human
Alignment: Neutral
Traits: Sacred Conduit, Fate’s Favored
Class (Archetype): Monk (Zen Archer) 4 / Cleric (Pilgrim) 9
Favorite Class Ability: +1 Skill Points or Hitpoint
Stats (20pt): Str (12), Dex (14), Con (10), Int (7), Wis (17), Cha (16) – Add level stats to Wis at all levels.
Monk Favor – Well he is a Zen Archer, so…
C1) Selective Channeling, Improved Channel, Deity Abadar, Domains: Luck (Bit of Luck) & Travel, (Agile Feet), Channel (1d3), Fortunate Road, Caravan Bond (Su), Variant Channel (Rulership / Harm)
C2)
C3) Deadly Aim, Channel (2d3)
M4) Point Blank Shot
M5) Quick Channel, Precise Shot
M6)
M7) Shatter Resolve
C8)
C9) Clustered Shots, Channel (3d3)
C10)
C11) Extra Channel, Channel (4d3)
C12)
C13) Whatever, Channel (5d3)
13th level: Daze DC (22); Flurry Attack +8FA +7Wis +5DF +3WE -3DA +1Bracers +1Weapon Focus +1PBS = +22(ki) / +22 / +22 / +17 / +12. Perfect Strike will help accuracy. Goes after dazed and/or shaken enemies with compromised AC.
7th level: Daze DC (17); Flurry Attack +13(ki) / +13 / +13 / +8.
4th level: Daze DC (17); Flurry Attack +9(ki) / +9/ +9
3rd level: Daze DC (16); Does not attack with a bow.
You stink at combat till lv6 when you finally will get wis to your attack rolls. I'm not sure where you're getting +9(ki) / +9/ +9 at lv4.
You're at bab3+dex2+DF2-2flurry-1DA = +4/+4 for 1d8+3 damage. At lv4 you don't have a ki point. And you don't have precise shot so you're taking a -8 to a lot of attacks and at least -4 for good shots. Very rarely are you able to get a completely clear shot.
DF only goes up to +4 max with the trait, so not +5.
You better hope you only have three companions or some fortunate positioning to get your channels off. You're going to need to move into position to use your channel and that means you can't buff the first round. Plus you can only quick channel 3 times a day till lv11, Maybe that's enough, but it doesn't leave you much flexibility.
I don't really see this working out well in actual play.
EDIT:Plus you're only a 9th level caster at lv13 with only 5th level spells. A warpriest would be a 13th level caster and also have 5th level spells, but would be much better of a combatant and be able to attack round 1 instead of round 2.
I am making a particular build concept. If you can show me how to build a warpriest that dazes round 1 and attacks round 2 and beyond, then I am all ears.
I don't want to debate the viability of the build. I just want to know if there are feats / equipment or even a different class that can make the concept of the build better.
Level 1-3 he is a Cleric, so I am cool with that. It's not sub-optimal to be a Cleric.
Level 4-5 are his down levels.
Level 6 he takes on his new role.
You are correct about level four, don't know where I got those numbers from. Though you forgot Point Blank shot and your damage calculation is incorrect. (+5/+5) 1d8 +8 (1d8 +2str +1we +2DA +2DF+1PBS).
Alternatively, without deadly aim, which he likely would not use until level seven, +7/+7 (1d8+6). Pretty respectable during his down levels.
How do you plan on getting into position round 1 without moving to get your plan to work?
Plus, Warpriest, worship same god. Use variant channel to daze same as you. Still get all the benefits of being a single class.
Stats 14/17+2/10/7/16/7
Same channel DC as you, better or equal accuracy all the time and more damage. Also now my stats are split between mental and physical making it cheaper to boost accuracy and channel DC.
now you can move, channel as a standard and still get your buff as a swift, then swift buff again if you'd like.
1)Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, weapon focus
2)
3)Deadly Aim, rapid shot
4)
5)Selective Channeling
6)
7)Improved Channel
Problem with Warpriest is that Channel is very expensive. Have to use two fervor to channel. Have to use two channels to quick channel. That is four fervor.
Given that a Warpriest has far better uses for fervor, it is just too expensive.
I guess you have him going without quick channel, but that still uses two fervor to channel and two to swift cast a spell. Still very expensive.
Driver 325 yards wrote: You are correct about level four, don't know where I got those numbers from. Though you forgot Point Blank shot and your damage calculation is incorrect. (+5/+5) 1d8 +8 (1d8 +2str +1we +2DA +2DF+1PBS).
Alternatively, without deadly aim, which he likely would not use until level seven, +7/+7 (1d8+6). Pretty respectable during his down levels.
Your str is only a 12, so not +1, but I did forget to include the DA damage, but PBS or WE are not a given all the time so it's fine to say the stats and know that you add more if those apply.
But a +7/+7 (if the enemy isn't in melee combat or behind your ally) for (1d8+6) and needing a round to buff is to me, quite awful. At lv4 a fighter is doing +9/+9 (rapid shot, pbs, precise, WF, DA, WS and +1weapon) for(1d8+6) or +7/+7 for 1d8+10 with DA.
That's a lv4 fighter, not even optimized, doing considerably better without needing a round to buff and you can only do DF 2 times a day at lv4-8, so you can't always be at effective values all day.
Driver 325 yards wrote: Problem with Warpriest is that Channel is very expensive. Have to use two fervor to channel. Have to use two channels to quick channel. That is four fervor.
Given that a Warpriest has far better uses for fervor, it is just too expensive.
I guess you have him going without quick channel, but that still uses two fervor to channel and two to swift cast a spell. Still very expensive.
You asked for a build that does the same thing but better, I delivered. He's able to do his special deal about as often as your guy so I don't see the problem.
And it's only 3 fervor to accomplish the channel and the buff, not 4.
Again, don't want to debate the viability. But you seem to overlook that you are dazing the opponent(s) the first round while you are buffing.
Furthermore, at level four, he does not have to attack with the bow if the opponent seems hard to hit. He could daze enemies (move action) and bit of luck an ally (standard action). He has options even during his admittedly lean levels (4-5).
Last, the build is not optimized for a series of combats throughout the day. The combo works about 3 to 4 (later levels) times a day. If there are more encounters than that, then the build suffers.
Chess Pwn wrote: Driver 325 yards wrote: Problem with Warpriest is that Channel is very expensive. Have to use two fervor to channel. Have to use two channels to quick channel. That is four fervor.
Given that a Warpriest has far better uses for fervor, it is just too expensive.
I guess you have him going without quick channel, but that still uses two fervor to channel and two to swift cast a spell. Still very expensive.
You asked for a build that does the same thing but better, I delivered. He's able to do his special deal about as often as your guy so I don't see the problem.
And it's only 3 fervor to accomplish the channel and the buff, not 4. in fairness, your build can only do it twice per day. Further, it is not better because you don't have Shatter Resolve.
Also, the saving throws for the ZA/Cleric leave the Warpriest wanting. +5/+2/+5 (Warpriest) before stats verses +7/+5/+7 (ZA Cleric).
How do you plan on getting into position round 1 without moving to get your plan to work?
And I'm not overlooking. You're spending the first round to have a chance of dazing a few of the enemies. If you have to move to get into position to daze though then you can't buff that round. Now it's either be worse at combat r2 or buff r2 and not be doing combat till r3, or you're not dazing anyone.
Chess Pwn wrote: How do you plan on getting into position round 1 without moving to get your plan to work?
And I'm not overlooking. You're spending the first round to have a chance of dazing a few of the enemies. If you have to move to get into position to daze though then you can't buff that round. Now it's either be worse at combat r2 or buff r2 and not be doing combat till r3, or you're not dazing anyone.
Channel has a thirty foot radius. I don't think you have to move at all. Absent being in a outdoor all ranged fight, I don't think your issue is something that gives me concern.
The enemy closes in on your group or, even more likely, is within 30 foot at the time that the GM says "give me initiative," and then you burst.
Last, I don't think you appreciate how effective dazing/intimidating one or more enemies can be. In some circumstances it is far more impressive that attacking.
I don't think he's questioning how useful the dazed condition can be, just how effective the build is. At higher levels the game usually goes more mobile, and having every enemy start within 30 feet is by no means a guarantee. Even when moving to melee range a huge or gargantuan enemy can still be 10-15 feet away from your closest ally, which probably means you're going to have to move to get your channel to affect multiple/all enemies. Which still isn't a bad thing, buffing round 1, channeling round 2 to daze enemies, and then finishing them off in subsequent rounds is still a pretty decent combat, but to say that you're going to get the first round combo of buffing and channeling off all the time doesn't seem realistic.
Overall I think it's a fine build, and both ZA/cleric and warpriest both have their advantages. A couple things I would note is that using a domain power to show that the ZA/cleric is the superior build isn't a great argument, because the warpriest also gets blessings, which, while not always as powerful as domain powers (travel, I'm looking at you), are still quite useful. Also blessings scale with level, not wisdom, which means you don't need to focus as much on wisdom to benefit, and because of multiclassing, the warpriest will get it's major blessing before most high level domain powers. Quicken blessing is also quite useful.
Second thing I would mention is that shatter resolve requires you to worship an evil god, which Abadar is not.
I think our discussion has lead me to the conclusion that there are two different ways to achieve the concept by 7th level. The first way is to start off as an Archer Warpriest who later evolves into a harm variant channeler. The second way is to start off as a Cleric harm channeler and to evolve into an archer via ZA. Comparing both at seventh level and I get.
Warpriest Channel DC at 7th (19), no intimidate effect, buff/channel combo twice per day.
ZA/Cleric Channel DC at 7th (17), intimidate effect, buff/channel combo three times per day
Warpriest Archery at 7th: +5BAB -2RS -2DA +1PBS +1WF +2WE +3DF +6Dex = +14/+14/+9 for 1d8 + 12 (1PBS +3DF +2Str +4DA +2WE)
ZA/Cleric Archery at 7th +4flurry -2DA +1PBS +1WF +2WE +2DF +5Wis = +13(ki)/+13/+13/+8 for 1d8 + 10; Relevant extras - Precise Strike, Point Blank Master
others: Save (Adv ZA/C); Hitpoint (Adv WP); CMB (Adv WP); AC (Adv ZA/C); Spells (Warpriest); Blessing v. Domain abilities (Adv ZA/C); Skills (ZA/C)
Deighton Thrane wrote:
Second thing I would mention is that shatter resolve requires you to worship an evil god, which Abadar is not.
Good catch. Is there a god that is evil and can still get me the luck and travel domain?
Shatter Resolve is Urgathoa specific.
Imbicatus wrote: Shatter Resolve is Urgathoa specific. That is just horrible, but it does say that plain as day and I miss it.
I guess no shatter resolve. Urgathoa has horrible domains and blessings.
Maybe the Warpriest is the way to go.
Can a Warpriest take extra channel? If so, does that give him extra fervor by default since his channeling ability is based on fervor?
Driver 325 yards wrote: Urgathoa has horrible domains and blessings.
War, Strength, Death, and Magic are all decent.
I don't want to debate the viability of the build. I just want to know if there are feats / equipment or even a different class that can make the concept of the build better.
With the right feats a straight Warpriest is possible to make this build work. Have seen Warpriests played and everyone that played them was impressed by the class save one issue low BAB.
However in this case I'd suggest a Fighter Cleric combination. Fighter gives you Combat feats at the first two levels giving you Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. If channeling and buffing is what you want go up as Cleric. Take a look at Vindicator Prestige class. A few levels of that add to your cleric's abilities.
In both cases skip archtypes sticking with the base class.
The warpriest has the same bab as a cleric. The only way you're getting higher bab is if you take 4 levels of a full bab class, then they get to be 1 bab higher. So if 1 bab is worth 4 levels of not upgrading spells then go for it.
Derek Dalton wrote: I don't want to debate the viability of the build. I just want to know if there are feats / equipment or even a different class that can make the concept of the build better.
With the right feats a straight Warpriest is possible to make this build work. Have seen Warpriests played and everyone that played them was impressed by the class save one issue low BAB.
However in this case I'd suggest a Fighter Cleric combination. Fighter gives you Combat feats at the first two levels giving you Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. If channeling and buffing is what you want go up as Cleric. Take a look at Vindicator Prestige class. A few levels of that add to your cleric's abilities.
In both cases skip archtypes sticking with the base class.
Interesting. Looks like I have to plot this Vindicator build out. Thanks
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