Slashing Grace, Unarmed Strikes


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I've seen a lot of threads asking this question, all saying no because slashing grace doesnt affect light weapons. (See Here,Here, and Here for examples of such threads.)

But these were a fair time ago and looking at Slashing Grace in the pfsrd it now says:

Slashing Grace wrote:
Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage.
Which differs from the ACG's
Slashing Grace wrote:
Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon

So i'm assuming that it's been errata'd and you can now use boar style with slashing grace for unarmed?


I don't see how you apply slashing grace to unarmed attacks through boar style for your normal feats.
Boar style is not a passive ability (style feats are activated in combat only as a swift action), so unarmed strikes fail to be a light slashing weapon choice for when you take slashing grace.
(Assuming that slashing unarmed strike is not a valid choice by default)

If you gain a feat in combat, after boar style is active, then slashing grace for unarmed strikes might? be a valid choice.
(I do not know if it qualifies as a slashing weapon)

So something like martial flexibility would work if boar style qualifies your unarmed strike as a slashing weapon.


oneyou wrote:

I don't see how you apply slashing grace to unarmed attacks through boar style for your normal feats.

Boar style is not a passive ability (style feats are activated in combat only as a swift action), so unarmed strikes fail to be a light slashing weapon choice for when you take slashing grace.

If you gain a feat in combat, after boar style is active, then slashing grace for unarmed strikes might? be a valid choice.
(I do not know if it qualifies as a slashing weapon)

So something like martial flexibility would work if boar style qualifies your unarmed strike as a slashing weapon.

I think its generally accepted that the "You can deal bludgeoning damage or slashing damage with your unarmed strikes—changing damage type is a free action." is a passive effect thats always active once you pick up the feat, whereas "While using this style, once per round when you hit a single foe with two or more unarmed strikes, you can tear flesh. When you do, you deal 2d6 extra points of damage with the attack." is what you get while using the style, as per the wording, hope that helps.

Given that a weapon capable of dealing slashing damage is also considered a slashing weapon, that's where the logic comes from. I'm just here checking to see if the pfsrd has got it wrong or if there really has been errata on the subject.

So anyway, back to the question, can anyone confirm (or even better post a link to) this errata?


SillyString wrote:


Given that a weapon capable of dealing slashing damage is also considered a slashing weapon, that's where the logic comes from.

Do you have a rules citation on this? Unfortunately this might seem like it is intuitive (and I wouldn't have an issue with it) but I would wager a great deal of GMs would disagree with the logical flow here.


Blakmane wrote:
SillyString wrote:


Given that a weapon capable of dealing slashing damage is also considered a slashing weapon, that's where the logic comes from.
Do you have a rules citation on this? Unfortunately this might seem like it is intuitive (and I wouldn't have an issue with it) but I would wager a great deal of GMs would disagree with the logical flow here.

Its one of those grey areas of the rules that's not really defined anywhere.

And that's not getting into the second grey area of if you can use a non-permanent effect to qualify for feats, because that's the case here too. I don't know who told the OP that the damage type change was always active, but that is most certainly wrong by the style feat rules. You get no benefit from a style feat if you aren't using that style.

And the errata is available from the ACG page of the webstore.


Ah thanks, I think seeing as I'm not able to quote anything (and too lazy to try to find anything) that specifically clarifies this issue, i'll err on the side of not even thinking about trying it until someone posts something more concrete.

Thanks for letting me know where the errata was though, that'll be useful for dagger builds and what-not!

Liberty's Edge

I see no reason that slashing grace would not work with unarmed strikes that do slashing damage. The fact that the character is able to do slashing OR bludgeoning damage with their unarmed strikes is no different than various weapons which have two damage types (e.g. dagger or kusarigama)... the fact that you have the option to do a different damage type doesn't prevent you from taking the feat (you are ALWAYS capable of doing slashing damage), but the benefits of the feat only apply when you are doing slashing damage.

Basically, this is the same situation as a Snake Style Swashbuckler... which was an option the developers specifically recommended in the Swashbuckler preview.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Basically, this is the same situation as a Snake Style Swashbuckler... which was an option the developers specifically recommended in the Swashbuckler preview.

Oh hey that's true, AND the "You gain a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks, and you can deal piercing damage with your unarmed strikes." sentence is the same as the "You can deal bludgeoning damage or slashing damage with your unarmed strikes—changing damage type is a free action." sentence that I thought was an always active effect. And if the developers not only say its allowed but recommend it, well i think you've convinced me, unless anyone can give a reason with snake style and boar style would vary so drastically despite functioning the same...

If its a different reason why I can't do what is suggested in the original post then let me know too, present me with ALL THE FACTS. :P

Thanks CBDunkerson for the information.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think there is a difference between the two; not because of the feats themselves, but because of the ability that makes use of them.

Swashbuckler's Finesse is an automatic ability, you can use it on anything that's a light or one-handed piercing weapon for you at that precise moment, like an unarmed strike when in Snake Style. But Slashing Grace doesn't work like that, it requires you to choose a weapon when you take the feat, and the weapon has to qualify for the feat on its own merits. At the time you're taking Slashing Grace, Boar Style is not active, so you can't use its benefits to alter the nature of an unarmed strike for the purpose of qualifying for the feat.

For example, a swashbuckler/phalanx fighter can use Swashbuckler's Finesse with a longspear they're wielding in one hand, because it's considered a one-handed weapon while they're wielding it. But they cannot pick Slashing Grace with a greatsword, because it is not considered a one-handed weapon for the purpose of feat selection during character creation or leveling up.


Avoron wrote:

I think there is a difference between the two; not because of the feats themselves, but because of the ability that makes use of them.

Swashbuckler's Finesse is an automatic ability, you can use it on anything that's a light or one-handed piercing weapon for you at that precise moment, like an unarmed strike when in Snake Style. But Slashing Grace doesn't work like that, it requires you to choose a weapon when you take the feat, and the weapon has to qualify for the feat on its own merits. At the time you're taking Slashing Grace, Boar Style is not active, so you can't use its benefits to alter the nature of an unarmed strike for the purpose of qualifying for the feat.

For example, a swashbuckler/phalanx fighter can use Swashbuckler's Finesse with a longspear they're wielding in one hand, because it's considered a one-handed weapon while they're wielding it. But they cannot pick Slashing Grace with a greatsword, because it is not considered a one-handed weapon for the purpose of feat selection during character creation or leveling up.

That's a fair point, the feat has to select something when you pick it, but a class ability is gained regardless then applies to things as they happen. Good catch.

I guess it depends on whether the "You gain a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks, and you can deal piercing damage with your unarmed strikes." part of snake style effect (and thereby boar's too) is always active AND whether or not being capable dealing slashing damage with a weapon makes it a slashing weapon.

---

Lets start breaking it down:
1) Do you think the +2 to Sense Motive is only active during combat?
2) Do you think the piercing ability is only active during combat? (same goes for boars/slashing)
3) Do you think that the piercing ability qualifies it as a piercing weapon? (some goes for boars/slashing)

See for me I'd answer as follows, though i could be wrong:
1) Not sure, it makes more sense (To me, don't bite my head off) for it to be always active.
2) If the last one is always active, and this is in the same sentence, then this is always active. (So boar's slashing is too, because they function the same) And from my interpretation, anything before the "While using the Snake Style feat, ..." qualifier is active without USING snake style, just by HAVING the feat, they could have easily worded it differently if they wished, but they didnt.

For instance, they could have said: "While using the Snake Style feat, you gain a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks, and you can deal piercing damage with your unarmed strikes. In addition... etc" but they didnt, they chose to use wording differently.

3) Judging from the developer directly confirming snake style works with swashbuckler, this is a FIRM yes, it is a piercing weapon, but depending on the answer to 1 and 2, it might not ALWAYS be a piercing weapon. (same goes for slashing)

So what do we think, are things like the +2 to sense motive, and thus the damage modification always active?

---

(Sorry for my last post's hurriedness, I was a bit distracted. Would you believe when I posted my last message I had just spent the last half an hour outside trying to crowbar off a drain cover to save some baby ducks?)

---

PS: If anyone can link us all to something definitive, that'd be even better. I'd love to get this settled. Again, I dont care either way how this goes, if it gets ruled no, there are other ways to get dex to damage, i'd just like to slay the mighty beast that we call ignorance.

Liberty's Edge

Avoron wrote:
Slashing Grace doesn't work like that, it requires you to choose a weapon when you take the feat, and the weapon has to qualify for the feat on its own merits.

Sure. Unarmed strikes are a weapon. If those strikes do slashing damage then they qualify for Slashing Grace.

Quote:
At the time you're taking Slashing Grace, Boar Style is not active

Why not?

Boar Style can be activated at any time. Someone with the feat could use it to deal slashing damage in every actual combat and every 'off screen practice session'. If all the training and experience someone undertook to learn the Slashing Grace feat came from using Boar Style to do slashing damage then how would it have not been active when they learned the feat?

Quote:
But they cannot pick Slashing Grace with a greatsword, because it is not considered a one-handed weapon for the purpose of feat selection during character creation or leveling up.

A greatsword cannot be used with slashing grace because it is a two-handed weapon. Even if someone has an ability allowing them to use it one-handed (or just using a small greatsword) that doesn't stop it BEING a two-handed weapon.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
SillyString wrote:


I guess it depends on whether the "You gain a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks, and you can deal piercing damage with your unarmed strikes." part of snake style effect (and thereby boar's too) is always active AND whether or not being capable dealing slashing damage with a weapon makes it a slashing weapon.

"You can deal slashing damage with it" don't make something a slashing weapon. To be a slashing weapon it should that in the hands of everyone.

CBDunkerson wrote:
Avoron wrote:
Slashing Grace doesn't work like that, it requires you to choose a weapon when you take the feat, and the weapon has to qualify for the feat on its own merits.

Sure. Unarmed strikes are a weapon. If those strikes do slashing damage then they qualify for Slashing Grace.

Quote:
At the time you're taking Slashing Grace, Boar Style is not active

Why not?

Boar Style can be activated at any time. Someone with the feat could use it to deal slashing damage in every actual combat and every 'off screen practice session'. If all the training and experience someone undertook to learn the Slashing Grace feat came from using Boar Style to do slashing damage then how would it have not been active when they learned the feat?

Quote:
But they cannot pick Slashing Grace with a greatsword, because it is not considered a one-handed weapon for the purpose of feat selection during character creation or leveling up.
A greatsword cannot be used with slashing grace because it is a two-handed weapon. Even if someone has an ability allowing them to use it one-handed (or just using a small greatsword) that doesn't stop it BEING a two-handed weapon.

Slashing grace requirement point to the weapon, not your other abilities. The weapon is a slashing weapon? No. Test failed, don't work.


I think its safe to say if a weapon gains the ability to deal piercing or slashing damage, then it becomes a piercing or slashing weapon, otherwise unarmed strikes wouldnt be specifically recommended as an option for a snake style swashbuckler by the developers.
Thats not up for discussion anymore, thanks to developers supporting and even recommending the idea:

CBDunkerson wrote:
"Basically, this is the same situation as a Snake Style Swashbuckler... which was an option the developers specifically recommended in the Swashbuckler preview.”

---

Moving on from this because we seem to have clear developer support to do so:

The only question left up for debate as far as I can see is:

SillyString wrote:
whether the "You gain a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks, and you can deal piercing damage with your unarmed strikes." part of snake style effect (and thereby boar's too) is always active or only when using the style.

(For the swashbuckler this point is moot because its an encompasing class feature, but for slashing grace you actually need to specifically select a weapon, so that weapon HAS to have the appropriate property when you select the feat. Given that the active side of fighting style feats arent ALWAYS active (thus not permanent)(during sleeping etc) that means it is important to decide how much of the feat is active permanently (like any other feat) and how much is only active during rounds you take up the stance. Because as we all know, non-permanent effects can't be considered when leveling up or selecting feats)

To me it makes sense that the sense motive bonus would be always active, thus the damage mod (as part of the same sentence) is also always active. This is primarily due to the common uses of the skill alongside the wording of Snake Style being what it is, instead of saying "While using the Snake Style feat, you gain a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks, and you can deal piercing damage with your unarmed strikes. In addition… etc etc” They deliberately chose to have the “while using snake style” section AFTER the sense motive and damage modification section.

---

But, that’s just using my logic to unravel the RAI based on how it's written, what I’d like to see is less unsourced conjecture derailing the thread on tangents we’ve already covered and more actual quotes, FAQs and facts relating to whether or not the bonuses prior to the qualifier text are permanently active or only active while the fighting style is active.

Post that and lets finally put this to rest. As I say, i don't mind either way, this is for the pursuit of truth and facts and squishy unicorn butts.

Liberty's Edge

SillyString, you are treating two different things like they were the same.

PRD wrote:


Precise Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not a natural weapon), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her off hand or use a shield other than a buckler. She can use this ability even with thrown light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, so long as the target is within 30 feet of her. Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from the additional damage of a precise strike. This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit.

That check what weapon are you using, so your feat apply.

PRD wrote:


Slashing Grace (Combat)

You can stab your enemies with slashing weapons.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

Benefit: When you take this feat, choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike), and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size. You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.

That feat target a specific category of weapons, not something that you are using at that time.

It is like saying "I take weapon versatility and can use slashing grace with any kind of weapon".


Diego Rossi wrote:

That feat target a specific category of weapons, not something that you are using at that time.

It is like saying "I take weapon versatility and can use slashing grace with any kind of weapon".

The catagory of weapons its targeting to select one weapon from is light or one-handed, there is no "slashing" catagory, only weapons from the light and one-handed that also happen to have the slashing property that is required to select the feat.

To clarify for you:
1) Unarmed strike is treated as a light melee weapon, we all know this. (but no slashing property normally)
2) If a feat were to give unarmed strike the slashing property, it would gain the slashing weapon property. (which we know from the swashbuckler & snake style being developer confirmed, this would qualify it for other effects)

It makes 0 difference that one is a feat and one is a class ability, PROVIDED we can clarify if the unarmed slashing modification from boar style is part of a temporary or permanent effect.

All you're doing is misunderstanding statements and frustratingly arguing what seem to be defunct points, you may actually be trying to make a relevant point, but if you are it's getting completely lost in translation.

And by the way, It is nothing even remotely like saying like saying "I take weapon versatility and can use slashing grace with any kind of weapon", but I dont think you're even reading the questions I'm asking, so whatever.

---

To reiterate, again, I'm trying to find out which part of a style feat (using the example of snake style's +2 to sense motive, Piercing damage mod, and the (clearly defined as when using the style) sense motive to AC), if any, is applied to a character permanently (like every other feat), and not just in the event of combat. (see my last post for expanded information as to why it's likely this is the case)

PLEASE stop posting because you still stubbornly believe anything up until now is wrong, the above question is what i am attempting to ask, and I dont want to have to re-ask it for the fourth time.

Scarab Sages

You're missing something very important. Much like how spells have extra text beyond the spell itself(such as polymorph spells have special extra rules found in the Magic section of the CRB), style feats also have special rules not found in the feat itself that answers your question.

"As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style. You can use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style. "

Style feats may only be used while you are in the stance of the style feat, and you may only enter a stance during combat.

Thus, boar style and snake style are not permanent effects, only effects that can be gained during combat after you enter the stance.


There's a big potential difference between "My unarmed strike is a slashing weapon", and "unarmed strike is a slashing weapon". It's grey-area at best. Anyhow...

The wording of a feat like Boar Style heavily implies that you don't need to be in Boar Style to have your unarmed strike deal slashing damage. However, the rules on style feats say "...you cannot use a style feat before combat begins...". So oddly enough, the most straightforward reading is that your unarmed strikes are slashing weapons only when in combat, but you don't need to actually be in the style.

What's really odd is that you can't use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite without being in that style, but there's no such limitation on a style feat itself...

Scarab Sages

BadBird wrote:

There's a big potential difference between "My unarmed strike is a slashing weapon", and "unarmed strike is a slashing weapon". It's grey-area at best. Anyhow...

The wording of a feat like Boar Style heavily implies that you don't need to be in Boar Style to have your unarmed strike deal slashing damage. However, the rules on style feats say "...you cannot use a style feat before combat begins...". So oddly enough, the most straightforward reading is that your unarmed strikes are slashing weapons only when in combat, but you don't need to actually be in the style.

What's really odd is that you can't use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite without being in that style, but there's no such limitation on a style feat itself...

You can't use any style feat or feat that has a style feat as a prereq unless you are in combat. They are both specifically limited.


What I said was that apparently you don't need to be in a style to use the original style feat. I said nothing about not needing to be in combat.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BadBird wrote:
What I said was that apparently you don't need to be in a style to use the original style feat. I said nothing about not needing to be in combat.

Ah, then yes. That is the most straightforward reading. The only in combat thing is weird, of course, but so are many rules in pathfinder.

Player : "I'd like to cut this rope but I've lost all my gear. Can I use my fist to cut it, GM?"

GM : "You can only use Boar style in combat, so your fist currently only deals bludgeoning, and bludgeoning damage will not hurt the rope"

Player : "Cleric, can you please animate this rope so I can treat it as an enemy and initiate combat?"


Ok, so on a somewhat related question, the crane style states...

"You take only a –2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. While using this style and fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you gain an additional +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class."

So lets say I have the crane style feat, am not a Master of Many Styles, am in the stance for another style, and am fighting defensively? The "only take a -2 penalty on attack..." is before the when using the style, so am I -2 or -4 to hit?

Scarab Sages

JustABill wrote:

Ok, so on a somewhat related question, the crane style states...

"You take only a –2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. While using this style and fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you gain an additional +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class."

So lets say I have the crane style feat, am not a Master of Many Styles, am in the stance for another style, and am fighting defensively? The "only take a -2 penalty on attack..." is before the when using the style, so am I -2 or -4 to hit?

It seems off to only be able to apply part of the feat. So my guess is that you are meant to be in the stance to apply any part of the feat. But this is one case where we need dev confirmation to be sure.

But just from straight reading and assuming what is written is what is meant, the -2 instead of -4 would apply even if you are not in the stance. But you would need to be in the stance to get the dodge bonus to AC.


It's not all that odd conceptually anyhow. You're efficient at fighting defensively; additionally, if you're in the style, then you get more out of it.


BadBird wrote:
It's not all that odd conceptually anyhow. You're efficient at fighting defensively; additionally, if you're in the style, then you get more out of it.

Yes, that's my reading of the feat, sorry I didnt reply to lorewalker's post 7 hours and 45 mins ago, i've only just woken up.

lorewalker wrote:
But just from straight reading and assuming what is written is what is meant, the -2 instead of -4 would apply even if you are not in the stance. But you would need to be in the stance to get the dodge bonus to AC.

This is exactly the point, crane style, snake style, boar style, they're all written the exact same way:

Crane style mentions -2 instead of -4, THEN says "while using the crane style feat, when..."
Snake style mentions the +2 sense motive & damage mod, THEN says "while using the snake style feat, when..."
Boar style mentions the damage mod, THEN says "while using the boar style feat, when..."

We could really do with something that addresses this, because as all the examples (cutting a rope, heh) mention, its silly to have them active only some of the time, im sure something concrete must be out there somewhere, right?

Liberty's Edge

I'm sure the intent of the 'cannot use before combat begins' clause was to make people actually SPEND the swift action to initiate the style rather than saying, 'Oh I have been in Crane Style for the last three days... really comfortable sleeping that way'. It's purely an action economy thing.

That said, I don't think there should be anything preventing you from engaging in 'combat' against a rope. If you attack the thing then you are engaging in combat.

Basically, you should be able to turn it on at ANY time, but the only way to keep it on ALL the time would be to be in a constant state of combat readiness... which should quickly lead to fatigue / exhaustion / delirium.


CBDunkerson wrote:

I'm sure the intent of the 'cannot use before combat begins' clause was to make people actually SPEND the swift action to initiate the style rather than saying, 'Oh I have been in Crane Style for the last three days... really comfortable sleeping that way'. It's purely an action economy thing.

That said, I don't think there should be anything preventing you from engaging in 'combat' against a rope. If you attack the thing then you are engaging in combat.

Basically, you should be able to turn it on at ANY time, but the only way to keep it on ALL the time would be to be in a constant state of combat readiness... which should quickly lead to fatigue / exhaustion / delirium.

Yeah, that does seem to be the case, but many people are of the double standard that things like the "+2 to sense motive" and the "only -2 when fighting defensively" are active 24/7 but are completely convinced that the unarmed damage modification, (despite appearing in the exact same sentence) arent active 24/7.

It'd be good to get to the bottom of it anyway.


SillyString wrote:

I think its safe to say if a weapon gains the ability to deal piercing or slashing damage, then it becomes a piercing or slashing weapon, otherwise unarmed strikes wouldnt be specifically recommended as an option for a snake style swashbuckler by the developers.

By this logic then, with Weapon Versatility, ANY one handed or light weapon can be used for Slashing Grace?

Just Curious.


LazGrizzle wrote:
SillyString wrote:

I think its safe to say if a weapon gains the ability to deal piercing or slashing damage, then it becomes a piercing or slashing weapon, otherwise unarmed strikes wouldnt be specifically recommended as an option for a snake style swashbuckler by the developers.

By this logic then, with Weapon Versatility, ANY one handed or light weapon can be used for Slashing Grace?

Just Curious.

I dont think so, it isnt phrased in the same potentially ambiguous way as the style feats, so there's not as much room for interpretation.

I'm sure the others would agree, but I'm not 100% on that so dont quote me on it. (It more likely to be a temporary-based bonus than the parts of a style feat that are "potentially permanent".)


I guess it bears repeating that Slashing Grace and Precise Strike are very different things. Precise Strike applies automatically any time you make an attack that fulfills the conditions, so it's good enough that a given attack you make is piercing. Slashing Grace requires you to choose a category of weapon that fulfills a certain condition, so the category of weapon must fulfill that condition.

You can't say: "if I use Weapon Versatility to alter a shortspear to do slashing damage then it's a slashing weapon. Therefore, shortspear is a slashing weapon! Hey, shortspear is a slashing weapon, I can take Slashing Grace with it!"

By the same token, many would consider it pretty dubious to say "if I use Boar Style to alter unarmed strike damage, then I can do slashing damage with an unarmed strike. Therefore, unarmed strike is a slashing weapon."


BadBird wrote:

I guess it bears repeating that Slashing Grace and Precise Strike are very different things. Precise Strike applies automatically any time you make an attack that fulfills the conditions, so it's good enough that a given attack you make is piercing. Slashing Grace requires you to choose a category of weapon that fulfills a certain condition, so the category of weapon must fulfill that condition.

You can't say: "if I use Weapon Versatility to alter a shortspear to do slashing damage then it's a slashing weapon. Therefore, shortspear is a slashing weapon! Hey, shortspear is a slashing weapon, I can take Slashing Grace with it!"

By the same token, many would consider it pretty dubious to say "if I use Boar Style to alter unarmed strike damage, then I can do slashing damage with an unarmed strike. Therefore, unarmed strike is a slashing weapon."

I agree, and in the case of style feats, it is entirely likely that no part of the style feat is active unless conscious at least. (which I believe would disqualify it as a permanent for the purpose of qualifying for slashing grace)


Fair enough...makes sense. Well done.


SillyString wrote:
I agree, and in the case of style feats, it is entirely likely that no part of the style feat is active unless conscious at least. (which I believe would disqualify it as a permanent for the purpose of qualifying for slashing grace)

What stops someone from being awake and conscious for 24 hours? For instance a Wyrwood could be conscious for years with no issues...


graystone wrote:
SillyString wrote:
I agree, and in the case of style feats, it is entirely likely that no part of the style feat is active unless conscious at least. (which I believe would disqualify it as a permanent for the purpose of qualifying for slashing grace)
What stops someone from being awake and conscious for 24 hours? For instance a Wyrwood could be conscious for years with no issues...

Hah, I havn't accounted for something like that. Generally the rule for things like level ups and feat selection function as if anything that isnt a permanent effect (such as temp stat penalties/bonuses) doesnt exist. (recently had a lengthy discussion about such effects in a different thread)

-Though its also true that these effects are treated as permanent after being active 24hours (enhancement bonuses for items, etc) -whether or not this qualifies for feats or not, I dont know.

Going by the assumption that the same is true of all effects, you might be right, but then again, maybe toggled things cant be considered permanent for whatever reason?

This does seem to be a good old can o worms doesnt it?

Chances are we should err on the side of assuming not to be able to do any of these things though. As that's the best policy 90% of the time.


See here perhaps?
Given the following (assuming the Lead Designer knows what they are talking about (can take as read, I'm sure)):

Quote:
A brawler can use the feats granted by brawler's flurry to qualify for other feats, but can only use those other feats when using brawler's flurry (as that's the only time she actually meets those prerequisites).

It is the case that if you meet a set of prerequisites under a certain set of conditions, you are able to operate as though you always meet them. Even if the benefit only applies when you actually are.

I.e:
X is a conditional version of Y.
Y is needed for Z.
X qualifies you to take Z.
However, you only benefit from Z under the conditions in which X gives you the benefit of Y.

SillyString wrote:
Chances are we should err on the side of assuming not to be able to do any of these things though. As that's the best policy 90% of the time.

Nah. Conservative reading for its own sake just encourages an attitude to read all things conservatively, as opposed to trying to read the text as unbiasedly as possible. :P


Physically Unfeasible wrote:

See here perhaps?

Given the following (assuming the Lead Designer knows what they are talking about (can take as read, I'm sure)):
Quote:
A brawler can use the feats granted by brawler's flurry to qualify for other feats, but can only use those other feats when using brawler's flurry (as that's the only time she actually meets those prerequisites).

It is the case that if you meet a set of prerequisites under a certain set of conditions, you are able to operate as though you always meet them. Even if the benefit only applies when you actually are.

I.e:
X is a conditional version of Y.
Y is needed for Z.
X qualifies you to take Z.
However, you only benefit from Z under the conditions in which X gives you the benefit of Y.

But the question here isn't whether a character meets the prerequisites for a feat, but rather which weapons are valid choices for a feat. I don't see those as identical situations, so I don't see Jason's statement to be relevant here.


It sure is a dooszy of a pickle!

Meanwhile it's 1 in the morning here, so i'm afraid i'll have to weigh in on this discussion when i wake up.


Gisher wrote:
But the question here isn't whether a character meets the prerequisites for a feat, but rather which weapons are valid choices for a feat. I don't see those as identical situations, so I don't see Jason's statement to be relevant here.

See, I don't see the cleavage you're pointing to here.

Under conditions of using a fighting style, the character is able to treat unarmed strikes as slashing.
Thus they can treat unarmed strikes as slashing, always.
Thus they can apply slashing grace to them.
However: They only benefit from this when in style.


Physically Unfeasible wrote:
Gisher wrote:
But the question here isn't whether a character meets the prerequisites for a feat, but rather which weapons are valid choices for a feat. I don't see those as identical situations, so I don't see Jason's statement to be relevant here.

See, I don't see the cleavage you're pointing to here.

Under conditions of using a fighting style, the character is able to treat unarmed strikes as slashing.
Thus they can treat unarmed strikes as slashing, always.
Thus they can apply slashing grace to them.
However: They only benefit from this when in style.

When you take the feat you pick 1 slashing weapon. Unarmed strikes are bludgeoning.

This is very similar to the Rime metamagic feat and the Wizard's ability to change the type on the fly. Rime can only go on cold spells. When you prepare your spells, Fireball isn't a cold spell, so you can't have a Rime Fireball, even though you could make the fireball be a cold spell when you cast it.

It would be like, for this feat select 1 sword. And you have an ability that lets you use an ax like a sword. You can't put this feat onto your ax because it's still an ax, and not a sword, even though you can use it like a sword.


^ This, although snake style and swashbuckler has been confirmed viable, the fact that when you select slashing grace you need to select the weapon at the time of picking up the feat makes it a significantly more "iffy" choice rules wise.

IF the weapon mod side of the style feat was permanently active as something seperate to the "active" effect, then it might be more possible, but thats a total of two bits of gymnastics to be able to reach that conclusion, and i've become increasingly convinced that this isnt the RAI.

Chess Pwn will be pleased that i'm agreeing with him! :P

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Slashing Grace, Unarmed Strikes All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.