dirty melee


Advice


i want to play a fun character than will be able to do the follwing :

1. have "some" skills or spells or way to be useful in non-combat play-time. not a "face" , but... something to do.
2. be OK++ at damage, when no maneuver is optinal.
3. master dirty tricks and maybe grapple (dirty is s must). meaning, i want to able to use dirty tricks in most combats , so decent progressing CMB is needed.
4. am considering to take 2 level in low templar - that add both +2 to CMB and amazing crit effects.

rules:
1. ofc the game has magical items, but we cant create or buy - only what DM "give" or we find .
2. 22 point by.
3. core books (combat, magic, advance, player) are ok. class guide is partly, other need DM saying ok.
4. no slayer or unchained allowed.
5. DM allow most dirty tricks to work with a weapon.
6. Skulking Slayer is allowed, so is lore wardens.

the game start at low level and expected to reach high levels.

so.... here are several decent options that can also do other stuff...

The Magus:

Int based offer very nice skills.
spells offer a nice "plan B".
dex based offer good defence - but cost load of feats to work.
the options of True strike and attack at same round is lovey.
full build will have to wait until level 9 for BAB 6, quick dirty tricks at full bab "worth".
magics tend to have VERY high weapon bonus, decent defences and options.

The Ranger X \ Skulking Slayer 1:

1/2 orc
STR based, so decent damage.
2 weapon style, Boon companion make a full pet.
each attack can be a dirty trick.
bonus feats help a lot.
LOAD of skills. (int 14 can be 9 per level) - leaving room for knowledge and information gathering.
+2 to all saves (with trait) .
team feats can add more bonuses.

Lore warden X \ Skulking Slayer 1:

seem a bit weaker than the options of the ranger,
but best CMB AND CMD
weapon training.
fighter only feats.
however... since you got load of feats, one can even learn spring attack and dip 1 into shadow dancer. since sneak = dirty trick, you can skirmish in and out - vanishing leaving the foe blind and helpless.

The Swashbuckler:

dex based ofc.
swash offer no real maneuver bonuses, but the parry and style is nice.
best critical build - at level 5 +.
can work nicely with intimidate as extra debuf.

The Oracle :

Battle mastery offer full dirty trick progression.
the elf archetype, taken with a 1/2 elf, offer good saves and wizard spells.
very MAD build, poor saves.
full 9 level caster is a great plan B...

The Cavalier - Huntmaster :

either a 1/2 orc for a skulking slayer dip or halfling for riding the dog.
the dog add yet another dirty trick with decent enough chance to land.
coordinate maneuvers will add you both +2.
halfling can ride the dog .
Plan B when no dirty tricks, can be either charging or defending allies with bodyguard feats and aid another.

order of the Dragon for party defenses.
order of the Sword for feats, will saves, and a killing charges. (halfling only).
order of the Paw if dog learn bull rush.
Order of the Eastern Star for RP and using the useless expertise.
order of the cockatrice if adding intimidate to the combo. (more 1/2 orc).


Apologies if you would have preferred not to know, but the Elven FCB for Oracle is now 1/6. It's still potentially useful for CMB since every point helps but... yeah.

I would actually suggest looking at a Wizard/Eldrtich Knight or just Wizard/Martial if you can get your DM to approve the use of a certain Wizard Discovery...

"Knowledge is Power".

You could go Urban Barbarian 1 with a couple Extra Rage for 18/day, so that you can boost attack bonus with rage and furious weapon; then Wizard for a ton of buffing options and Knowledge is Power; then EK to maintain BAB and get even more buffing options. Or, just work a bit of Wizard into a more purely martial build.


Eldritch guardian fighter (with maybe mutagenic warrior on top for flight and extra strength fro attacks/maneuvers).

Eldritch guardian gives you a familiar that shares in your combat feats. Since pretty much all the relevant dirty tricks feats count, this basically doubles your action economy. With it, you could cripple an opponent in a single round

Grab a mauler familiar (probably a fox- they have 16 str at level 3) and you will do fine. They get your full BAB and they get further str bonuses as you level (using their medium form at level 3 as the baseline, they basically get scaling barbarian rage). So it is likely fine. Grab dirty fighting to give further bonuses while flanking to both of you.

Obviously, the 'some skills' bit has to come from advanced weapon training and the usual ways to build up skill points (human and int)

It has the advantage of giving you a pseudo pounce option though. Coordinated charge is a teamwork feat AND a combat feat. It allows you to use an immediate action to charge when an ally with the feat charges. So send your fuzzy friend first, and then move off turn to get next to your target. At that point, you will likely start your next turn next to your enemy, allowing you to immediately full attack.


Thanks.
Oracle I meant the archtype that add wizard spells to the list, adding super nice spells.

The familiar is nice but low ac low hp.... It will die if in melee a lot more than a mount.

I still think a 1 level dip of skulking slayer is amazing.

Ain't a magus better then a wizard and fighter combo?

Which will be a better base melee here ? More warden, ranger with a wolf, cavalier with a dirty trick dog? Or a swashbuckler that sadly has low saves ?


666bender wrote:
The familiar is nice but low ac low hp.... It will die if in melee a lot more than a mount.

For HP, a mauler familiar can end up with a lot of hp if you use a mauler, since the owner can take a feat to give it +2 hp per level. That should be enough to get around d8 when you have d10 yourself.

For AC... not sure where that idea is coming from. You can put 0 ACP light armor on anything, and familiars get a scaling +1-+10 bonus to natural armor. So give them proper equipment, and they can do fine.


666bender wrote:
Ain't a magus better then a wizard and fighter combo?

That depends on a lot of different things. For your dirty trick purposes, a Magus can't take Knowledge is Power to add INT to CMB. Anyhow, even just using one level of Wizard qualifies you for Knowledge is Power.

666bender wrote:
I still think a 1 level dip of skulking slayer is amazing.

One level of Skulking Slayer is great for the ability to replace a Sneak Attack with a dirty trick, but it does still mean that you need to be able to make a Sneak Attack to do it. Getting Quick Dirty Trick lets you replace any one melee attack per round with a dirty trick, which will then make that Skulking Slayer dip mostly pointless. I'd say Skulking Slayer is only really useful if you're going to actually go mostly Rogue and use the Scout Archetype with it.

Going with a rage-cycle Barbarian - either Barbarian/Oracle for fatigue immunity or Scarred Rager so that 1 round of rage only fatigues you until the start of your next turn - will let you use Strength Surge and Reckless Abandon to make your CMB unstoppable for one Quick Dirty Trick per round. And if you can get the Rage Power Savage Dirty Trick...


lemeres wrote:
666bender wrote:
The familiar is nice but low ac low hp.... It will die if in melee a lot more than a mount.
For HP, a mauler familiar can end up with a lot of hp if you use a mauler, since the owner can take a feat to give it +2 hp per level.

what feat is that?


quick dirty trick indeed is a nice one. but. it will allow 1 dirty a round. the idea is to stack many effects so the opponent get rid them out.


So I believe it only takes 1 standard action to remove ALL dirty tricks they have on them.


666bender wrote:
lemeres wrote:
666bender wrote:
The familiar is nice but low ac low hp.... It will die if in melee a lot more than a mount.
For HP, a mauler familiar can end up with a lot of hp if you use a mauler, since the owner can take a feat to give it +2 hp per level.

what feat is that?

Mauler's Endurance. note again- a feat taken by the master, not the familiar. Still, it can be rather worth it, since it does bring it up to melee snuff.


666bender wrote:

quick dirty trick indeed is a nice one. but. it will allow 1 dirty a round. the idea is to stack many effects so the opponent get rid them out.

It's probably a lot more efficient to focus on blind with entangle as a possible second, and then beat your blinded targets down. But if you really want to stack short conditions like crazy, sure. You can inflict the shaken condition with attacks, as well.


Cavalier huntmaster 3, boon companion
Than 1 skulking slayer then either 3 more warden or 2 low templar.
Rest are cavalier.

Cmb is +2 from low templar , +2 from coordinate maneuvers.
Pet can dirty for entangle with +2 or flank for +4. Or it can aid another master.
Every critical add effect freely.
Every sneak (flanks) can be dirty trick .
Add enforcer and you can really stack effects.

The mailer is also a really nice deal also. Especially for a small fighter ...


I know your DM said no Slayer, but they also approved the skulker, so you have precedent for checking in for another archetype.

Bounty Hunter slayer fits almost perfectly for what you described.

Good skills, full BAB and d10 HD. Bonuses to dirty tricks and grappling, SA.

Check with your DM, and consider a dip into Order of the Penitent Cavalier for grappling if you want to truss people up.

Edit: Realized skulking slayer is a rogue archetype. This is what I get for skipping sleep.

Look into Maneuver Master monk, possibly with bloodrager or urban rager.


Personal question here, sorry op,
If you've put on 3 dirty tricks on someone how long does it take them to get rid of all three?


Chess Pwn wrote:

Personal question here, sorry op,

If you've put on 3 dirty tricks on someone how long does it take them to get rid of all three?

why sorry? open debate is the best.

3 move or 3 standards.... thats why the skulking slayer, with 2 weapon style and a dog adding one more? is... wow.
you win a fight without a single blow.

the familiar with lorewarden , when the famiiar share your feats is also amazig


Are you sure? Do you have a rule? cause I've heard that only one action is needed to remove any conditions you have. I'll try and find rules for this idea later when I have time to search the rules.


Chess Pwn wrote:

So I believe it only takes 1 standard action to remove ALL dirty tricks they have on them. [/QUOTE

]
Why is that? Is says removing the condition...not conditions...


So far as removing Dirty Tricks, each condition is separate, so you would take a different action to remove each.

For reference, I have a Skulking Slayer 7/Lore Warden 5 in PFS play.
Stats started at Str 17, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8

Lore Warden 5 give +2 static CMB/CMD, and Weapon Training to use Gloves of Dueling for a total +3 (Use Flails, Heavy Flail is d10 19-20x2 weapon, close to greatsword damage, and whip/scorpion whip is in the same group for later).

Dusty Rose Ioun Stone in a wayfinder gives another +2.

PFSFG Dueling enchantment (+1, grants a Luck Bonus on all CMB with the chosen weapon equal to double the enhancement bonus) so a +1 weapon give +3 total to CMB with the weapon, +2 gives +6 total, etc.

He has full capabilities for Dirty Trick, Trip, and decent Steal, Reposition, Drag (Drag and Reposition can be done using a weapon with the trip property, and Steal can be done with Whip at -4, notably his +3 Dueling Scorpion Whip to do them at range so they don't provoke)( +9).

Skulking Slayer adds +1 to Dirty trick for each sneak die(+4), and +1 1/2 for Steal(+6). Stacks with Scout, so when you charge, you get to sneak attack.

There is a Feat that adds sneak dice to CMB if you are flanking or denied dex. (+4)

UnRogue Debilitating Strike lowers AC, so also lowers CMD. (-4)

Surprise Follow Thru and Imp Surprise Follow thru are wonderful. Since they are denied dex, their CMD is lowered.(-Dex Mod)

Power attack the first guy, then cleave into his friends and blind them.

Also, Cleave doesn't require you doing damage, just a melee attack on each target. So, you can technically trip them all, and proc a free attack from GR Trip, to make the secondary targets both prone and blind on a cleave since surprise follow thru denies them dex. Requires Combat reflexes and a decent dex. (-4 CMD from prone)

Power Attack is your damage dealing win button for plain old hitting things, with a 2 handed weapon. And being Str Based, x1.5.

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