# Grapple Progression

I read somewhere that at level 8, your total trip CMB should be like +20. I'm trying to figure out if there is a similar milestone for grappling.

I am doing a tie-up build with a Cavalier of the Penitent. So, from the onset, any attempt to tie up my opponent is +7 higher than my attempt to grapple them (+5 circumstance bonus, -4 Dexterity penalty = -2 Dexterity modifier on their side). Tie Up renders them helpless and my mount interferes my opponents from cutting my enemies loose.

So, mathing things out a bit, provided that I have Greater Grappler and Rapid Grappler, my grapple should be about... +15...? For trip, the advantage is that you render an opponent prone and then you attack them until they die. So, you have to succeed as much as possible. For grappling, once you have succeed, you get a +7 to follow up compared to a trip's +4 and a successful follow-up is final.

With that in mind, it would seem to me like the numerical prerequisite for a successful tie-'m-upper is less harsh than trip. Which makes me think that my math must be off, since I hear of very little people playing it that way.

What do you guys think? What should my grapple CMB be at level 8?

+15 seems way for grapple CMB. Even before you factor in all of the magic equipment you should be using to jack it up. That said, seeing your math would help.

Grapple CMB might not need to be as high because creatures with more or less than two legs get bonuses to trip.

Remember that most weapons won't grant you a bonus to grapple checks.

And apparently you don't add the +5 circumstance bonus to the Tie Up check.

My current build idea.

Cavalier of the Hammer (replaced upon getting the right equipment trick) 2/Sohei Monk 6/Unarmed Fighter 1

+6 Strength
+9 BAB (Monk levels count as BAB for CMB)
+2 Improved Grapple (1st)
+2 Greater Grapple (3rd)
+4 Net Proficiency/Equipment Trick (Net) (5th, 7th)
+4 Kobold Style (situational) (Ftr)
+2 Coordinated Maneuvers (Cav)
+2 Animal Companion helping (trick)
+2 Serpentine Squeeze (trait)
+1 Weapon Focus (Grapple)

+2 Form-Fixing Gauntlets
+3 Anaconda's Coils Belt

Vanilla +39 to Grapple CMB, add effective +6 against entangled foe, add effective +7 when pinning foe, add +4 when tying up the foe.

Wonderstell wrote:

Remember that most weapons won't grant you a bonus to grapple checks.

And apparently you don't add the +5 circumstance bonus to the Tie Up check.

Tying up is a "maintain grapple" action, meaning that the +5 circumstance bonus applies. If you have Equipment Trick(Rope), you reduce your penalty for tying-up without pinning to -5, canceling the two out. I think that is how that myth came into the world.

Here's a basic estimate:

+8 from BAB
+5 from Strength (By level 8 in a grapple focused build you've probably got more than 20 strength, but I'm being conservative)
+2 from Improved Grapple
+2 from Greater Grapple

That's +17 already. That's before magic items, of which there are a few . So I'd say that +15 at level 8 is low.

Sacredless.. There is some discussion about this point.. It has been pointed out that there may be two separate rolls needed to tie someone up if they are not pinned.

In the rules it says to make a grapple check to maintain your hold and if successful you can then do one of the following as part of the action..

Move
Damage
Pin
Tie up..

Tie up states that if they are pinned restrained or unconscious you can tie them up.. It also says if you are grappling you can attempt to tie them up with the -10..

The Faq states grappled and pinned are two separate conditions, pinned being a more severe version and that pinned takes the place of grappled.

Yeah +15 is not at all high for 8th level. If you take Celestial Obedience for Falayna you can get another +4 to Grapple maneuver checks. Armbands of the Brawler add in another +1.

Part of the reason a lot of people don't want to go this route are the convoluted grappling rules and the fact that you're not dealing damage with this route. There are a lot of people who feel they are not contributing to combat unless they are dealing damage directly to their opponent.

Faelyn wrote:

Yeah +15 is not at all high for 8th level. If you take Celestial Obedience for Falayna you can get another +4 to Grapple maneuver checks. Armbands of the Brawler add in another +1.

Part of the reason a lot of people don't want to go this route are the convoluted grappling rules and the fact that you're not dealing damage with this route. There are a lot of people who feel they are not contributing to combat unless they are dealing damage directly to their opponent.

This is why I'll be a Sohei monk. You can wear spiked armor as one.

Yuri Sarreth wrote:

Sacredless.. There is some discussion about this point.. It has been pointed out that there may be two separate rolls needed to tie someone up if they are not pinned.

In the rules it says to make a grapple check to maintain your hold and if successful you can then do one of the following as part of the action..

Move
Damage
Pin
Tie up..

Tie up states that if they are pinned restrained or unconscious you can tie them up.. It also says if you are grappling you can attempt to tie them up with the -10..

The Faq states grappled and pinned are two separate conditions, pinned being a more severe version and that pinned takes the place of grappled.

I know that there are at least two rolls needed, which is why this is such a tricky question. I'm not asking how well optimized your character can be. I'm not looking to be breaking encounters.

I'm looking to be a good enough hammer, according to the Forge of Combat, that can also grapple people. I want to be able to take out 1/3rd to 2/3rds of the enemy hp-pool without using special resources or circumstances.

I want to be able to target enemy's CMD as well as their AC. I want be sufficient when I have to take out an enemy that is a bullet-sponge (through tying-up) as well as trash mobs.

I'm going to be playing a character that has a gimmick, but isn't reliant and therefore annoying about it.