Zendikar (MtG) as a 5e Setting


5th Edition (And Beyond)

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White and Blue have some use of teleportation, but more often than not White has it as a "go away", while Blue uses it for whatever else.

That would probably be the only iffy and interesting thing about the colored spell lists, is what spells go in each of these colors lists, and what spells are only accessible to a character with access to 2 specific colors?

I probably wouldn't go so deep as to try and mix spell slots with mana points, nor mess around with variable "mana costs". Tbh if your alignment is a color(s), your spell list is color-specific, etc I don't think there's really a point to counting different types of mana points. Though I did earlier suggest communicating with grasslands/coasts/swamps/mountains/forests (a la cleric prayers, wizard studying, etc) would give you back a mana point or something. Perhaps you can do that once a day and you get 2 points back for doing that in a forest if your alignment is Green, or get 1 point back when doing it in a forest and 1 point back from doing it in some grasslands if your alignment is White/Green.


I have never read the novels but I'm curious; are planeswalkers tied to the land like the game suggests, or are they just magic-users with a theme?


Laurefindel wrote:
I have never read the novels but I'm curious; are planeswalkers tied to the land like the game suggests, or are they just magic-users with a theme?

All magic except for colorless is tied to the land. I'd assume that includes planeswalkers. Unfortunately in the novels that I read people only ever became planeswalkers in the final chapter, so they didn't really reveal much about the nature of planeswalker abilities.


Even colorless is tied to the land. The relationship between planeswalkers and the land is that even the MOST resourceful Zendikari White Mage (or Alabaster Mage as I prefer to call all White Mages collectively, to distinguish them flavorfully from Final Fantasy's White Mages) will have formed a spiritual and mental bond with every single Plains or equivalent source of White Mana on Zendikar, allowing them to tap into those sources of magic. A planeswalker on the other hand, may very well have formed a multitude of said mana bonds with various sources of white mana all over the multiverse.


Interesting

How could this translate into roleplay?


I'm kinda glad the spells aren't sorted by color. I mean: would it be cool to flavor a fireball as red? Yes. Do I want to restrict access to it based on color? I personally don't. I'd keep the same magic system but maybe describe it a little more appropriate to the color.

Magic was inspired by D&D. D&D is eating its own tail at this point.

(I'm prepping a Zendikar campaign, too!)


Personally, I would love to see a game set in Rath or Homelands. Also I miss the days when MtG cared about the story and would put novels in the fat packs. The story was the best part of magic but now, ech.

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Magic definitely still cares about the story. There's a lot of flavorful planes represented by the neowalkers. You can still find the books if you want, but I mostly catch up by reading the mtgsalvation wiki entries (which links related cards as well).


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2097 wrote:

I'm kinda glad the spells aren't sorted by color. I mean: would it be cool to flavor a fireball as red? Yes. Do I want to restrict access to it based on color? I personally don't. I'd keep the same magic system but maybe describe it a little more appropriate to the color.

Magic was inspired by D&D. D&D is eating its own tail at this point.

(I'm prepping a Zendikar campaign, too!)

You don't have to restrict it by color. But you could allow casters to specialize in a color for some sort of benefit to basting that color, at the cost of a disadvantage for casting others..

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Jaçinto wrote:
Also I miss the days when MtG cared about the story and would put novels in the fat packs. The story was the best part of magic but now, ech.

Interestingly enough, Magic has changed a lot in the 15+ years since Homelands. In recent years, there's actually been a pretty heavy emphasis on flavor, especially in the most recent set, Shadows Over Innistrad.


Jaçinto wrote:
Personally, I would love to see a game set in Rath or Homelands. Also I miss the days when MtG cared about the story and would put novels in the fat packs. The story was the best part of magic but now, ech.

The story is something you can follow on their site, not the same as a book, even an E book but they are entertaining. Sometimes maybe too much emphasis on Planeswalkers...


The best books in the MtG brand have to be Grubb's books: The Brothers' War, and the books paralleling the Dark, Ice Age and Alliances. They were very much worth reading, IMO.


Actually, I think I'm onto something about the Color Alignment replacing Normal Alignment, Racial Color Alignment skew, Class Color Prerequisite, and even Color-based spell lists.


Werefoowolf wrote:
Actually, I think I'm onto something about the Color Alignment replacing Normal Alignment, Racial Color Alignment skew, Class Color Prerequisite, and even Color-based spell lists.

That's what I'm doing for our game. It took a little while to do the color spells lists, and, I'm still unsure about some combinations of color(s)/subclass expanded spell lists (divine domain, warlock patrons etc). But it's going fine so far. My daughter has an interesting combination of white/red Kor tempest cleric with lots of heal, buffs and lighting blasting spells.


My earliest obstacle is using the right wording to clarify [Zendikari] elves have to be Green first and foremost, Goblins have to be Red first and foremost, etc but that splashing a dual-colored character opens up other color options... though unsure of what ratio of creature cards to reference decides an actual alignment skew. For example, it should be assumed that an Elf generally wants to be Green (same as True Neutral being a product of Neutral on the Lawful/Chaotic axis and Neutral on the Good/Evil axis coming together, Green here meaning Green appearing once each on 2 axes) but according to ZEN, WWK, ROE, BFZ, and OGW, there is one Red/Green elf creature, one Green/Blue elf creature, and two Green/Whire creatures. Not sure how to word this skew.


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Zendikari Elves are associated with green mana. Your color is green. If you have more than one color, one of your colors must be green. (?)


Threeshades wrote:

I had some time on my hands so I compiled this rough guide to color alignments and which types of spells and creatures are associated with the various colors.

Google Doc Link

This is short, sweet & useful.

Thank you!

--C.


I was thinking Human (Any) Kor (White/White+Any) Merfolk (Blue/Blue+Any) Vampire (Black/Black+Any) Goblin (Red/Red+Any) Elf (Green/Green+Any) and optionally Half-Elf (Any 1:1/Green+Any)

As for classes, just like Monk requires you to be Lawful at least, classes would do the same here. As far as Zendikar specifically is concerned, Cleric would be "Must at least be White or Black" (tho for a hypothetical Theros Cleric, I'd say "Any". Druid would be "Must be at least Green, Wizard = Any, Sorcerer = Any, Barbarian = "at least Red" (or Rage wouldn't make as much sense) Rogue be "Any but not White", etc, and similar to "Words of Power" in Pathfinder, have each class have varying sized alternate spell lists that apply with this system based on your alignment (for example, a Wizard would have a bigger spell list than say a Rogue)

Though I'm using my predictions of future Plane Shift pdfs based on their artbook releases, so for the time being I'm holding out for a Plane Shift: Innistrad pdf. In this example, I already see why adventuring races are limited to Humans, Kor, Merfolk, Vampire, Goblin, and Elf and not say an angel or demon or eldrazi is to capture the small amount of relatability they should have. It's just a bonus that the colors are balanced. On Innistrad, that's different... Would it be 100% Humans (Any 1:1 but lean White or Green?) or Humans, Vampires, Werewolves and/or Wolfir? Or Humans, Vampires, Werewolves and/or Wolfrir with alignment differences if you chose to play a Human templated Vampire, Werewolf/Wolfir? Pretty sure Geists, Devils, Ghouls, and Skaabs are NOT adventurers. Any ideas?


My suggestion is that deviating from your association (better word than alignment, and it clarifies what you're discussing) requires a very strong focus. Yes, a merfolk (normally blue-associated) COULD become red also, but it would require a very strong shift in his expected character. Most never do this. Such a change could be taking up the barbarian tribe lifestyle, delving into chaotic magics, and so on.

A creature COULD also change entirely to another colour, but such a change would require that the basic nature of the creature is entirely changed. Turning undead and becoming black is the most common example, but if above merfolk did enough (actively severed his blue association through red rituals, removed his fins, etc), he would possibly become entirely red. Noteworthy is that most such creatures in the card game are legendary - perhaps signifying the dedication and willpower they show.

Some creatures have a divided colour association: Humans being the clearest example. Humans exist across the spectrum, but still start off with one colour. Surrakar, however, are split between black and blue. Giants are red or green. And so on. In each case, the character starts off with one of the appropriate colours.


How is it meant to be understood when reading a race's alignment section? For example: Elf. Alignment. "Elves love freedom, variety, and self-expression, so they lean strongly toward the gentler aspects of chaos. They value and protect others' freedom as well as their own, and they are more often good than not." Are you strongly encouraged to play a Chaotic Good elf, or is there probably just a guarantee you'll be either Chaotic OR Good?

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I think that's rather extreme, why would a merfolk need to mutilate himself?

PCs are effectively legendary (even if they would just have a CMC = 1 to start). You can say most merfolk are blue, but PCs should not be bound to it. A racial color association reflects the mana it would take a planeswalker to summon the creature, not necessarily what the creature itself does (example).


As there are NO non-White Kor, non-Blue Merfolk, non-black Vampires, non-red Goblins, or non-Green elves on Zendikar, I have to disagree.

Your example to me represents a Green-Green elf using a feat or something to learn a spell from the Black Mage Spell List, or gaining a spell-like ability that mimics such a spell.

However, I'm inclined to say that MORE than just a change in action could allow you to go from a Green-Green elf to a Green-Green elf with a black spell-like ability to a Green-Black elf, to a Black-Black elf (or directly from a Green-Black elf to a Black-Black elf if you chose to be a Green-Black elf at character creation) under the right circumstances.

Using elf as example here, all elves should be no less than Green, lean further Green (for Green-Green) but have the freedom of being Green and something else. (Though ZEN, WWK, ROE, BFZ, and OGW would indicate there is 1 Green-Red legendary elf...elves, 1 non-legendary Green-Blue elf, and 2 examples of Green-White non-legendary elves, so unsure if that's Green for sure + lean just green, lean anything but Black, lean Green or White, lean Green/Blue/White, Green the most but the rest are all fair game, or not enough imbalance to warrant any particular color lean)


Double-post, sorry, but the above example makes sense; the description of an elf's alignment as Chaotic Good does paint the picture plainly; "Please don't deviate more than 1-2 step away from the intended alignment we have set up." So I have to believe that Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral/Evil, and Lawful/Neutral Good elves were intended. So if a race says it most often skews Neutral on the Lawful/Chaotic axis AND Neutral on the Good/Evil axis, the intention is that you'll play a Neutral Good, Neutral Evil, Lawful Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, or Neutral Character.

Same thing here. A Zendikari elf would skew Green on the 1st axis and Green on the 2nd axis, so to play them 100% straight (like a Chaotic Good elf) is to be Mono-Green, but creativity is expected to expand you to Green+____.

Edit: The only inconsistency I notice is devotion to Ula, Cosi, and Emeria/their Kor alter egos. While we know the Eldrazi Titans are colorless, I'm unsure of their False God personas' color alignments. Emeria gives off White-Blue, Ula gives off Blue-Black, and Cosi gives off Blue-Red, but who knows how the Kor perceive them.


Petty Alchemy wrote:

I think that's rather extreme, why would a merfolk need to mutilate himself?

PCs are effectively legendary (even if they would just have a CMC = 1 to start). You can say most merfolk are blue, but PCs should not be bound to it. A racial color association reflects the mana it would take a planeswalker to summon the creature, not necessarily what the creature itself does (example).

My thinking is that a creature associated with blue mana would have a core view of itself that would be tinted pretty heavily blue. Getting blue-red would be possible (though rare), but eliminating the blue? The merfolk would have to do enough to no longer think of himself as a blue creature, maybe even a bit more due to the magical link it spells out.

It is worth noting that association with colours is different in a very specific way to alignment: There are no colourless creatures in nature. Just not being devoted to a colour doesn't make you colourless.

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Werefoowolf wrote:
...the description of an elf's alignment as Chaotic Good does paint the picture plainly; "Please don't deviate more than 1-2 step away from the intended alignment we have set up."

Not at all the picture I get. I see that as "If you review 10,000 elves, you'll see Chaotic and Good alignments come up above average. But any singular elf can be any alignment."

Cards show off that average (green) elf that you can find a lot of (say 4 copies in a 60 card deck), but an individual elf can be different and any color he chooses, just like he could be LE rather than CG.

The point of my example was that while a creature may be summoned by one color of magic, the magic it itself is capable may indeed be of a different color. Like Tasigur or Ceta Disciple. They can't use magic of the color used to summon them at all.

In Zendikar you won't see non-black vampires nor non-blue merfolk, but they aren't a tribe that matters in that set, allies and eldrazi are.
In Innistrad, you'll see non-black vampires. In Lorwyn you'll see non-blue merfolk.
---
If you want to lock races into colors or alignments and that's fun for your table, I've no qualms. It's not something I see as necessary or fun for my own MTG-DnD experience however.


What? Zendikar has Allies of just about every sentient races, ceetainly every one of these six playable races.

Yes. I've said this. I'm concerned with Zendikar atm, not how Innistrad differs.


On Innistrad though, for vampires for example, instead of leaning Black twice, they lean Black once and Red once.

If I were DM and the player who did not want to conform to that at all gave me a compelling background and story for his non-Green elf (for example) and I couldn't poke holes in it (such as it being cheap an overused excuse for that) then by all means, roleplay away.


I agree with Petty Alchemy any race should be able to have any color, the innistrad and Lorwyn cycles may not be the best examples, because the races presented there (especially Lorwyn) shift away from the typical colors generally, but any individual may have some reason why they don't align with their native color even though the majority of their race does, just like how any individual person in real life may have a different ideology from the one predominant in the country they live in.


I think you could go either way.

I decided to go color-per-race (except human) because its a thematic rpg game about a thematic card game - the same reason why I sorted spells per color - but I can see why some may prefer to leave the spell list as they are and let the player free to choose its association (I like that term).

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I think you may have misinterpreted me Were, my point was that the races (ex. Vampires) don't matter as a tribe on Zendikar, Allies matter. In sets where racial tribes matter, they tend to spill into 2 colors to allow more versatility, and demonstrate more facets of the race.


That's correct. Though where a regular D&D elf (and Zendikar's elves follow suit) says they are more often than not Chaotic Good, that may not be cause to play as a Chaotic Good, it IS cause for taking a LOT of due consideration not to play an elf character who is neither Chaotic NOR Good. So on Zendikar Green for elves is the same as a race that is almost always Neutral, whether it be Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, or Neutral Evil, or even Neutral. However, as it did occur to me that classes take alignment a bit more strictly (can't be a non-lawful Monk for example) I've chosen to omit any further pressure to be any particular combination of advised color alignment, to allow freedom of class choice. So there IS pressure to be a Green elf, there's no additional pressure to play a Green/White elf, for example.

So if you wanted to be an Elf Barbarian, you could be Green/Red, for example.

Innistrad's iffy primarily because of what races actually give the vibe they SHOULD be played, Humans are a given, and Vampires seem reasonable enough, and a "right out of the box" variant of human werewolf, but geists, ghouls, and skaabs aren't really PC material. Vampires for example would be mostly Black/Red, so pressure to be Black at least, Red t least, or both at best. Humans of Innistrad on the other hand feel like they're White/Green, so pressure to be White at least, Green at least, or both, but with a suggested alternative, being a neutral alignment of any (Mono-White, Mono-Blue, Mono-Black, Mono-Red, or Mono-Green) I suppose a Werewolf would just be human with a Red/Green (at least Red or at least Green) alignment while transformed.

Besides the "what should be truly playable races on Innistrad?" Being a ghost or zombie doesn't really cut it. Only other main problem is how to do 3-color alignments, esp on Alara or Tarkir....


That and deities and such. I'm inclined to say Cleric is usuallly White and/or Black, but then that really screws up the being one step away from your god's alignment thing... Maybe for a Cleric of Avacyn, Avacyn being Mono-White in her first incarnation, you just couldn't be Red or Black UNLESS you were also White, and for a Cleric of Kruphix, you would have to be at least Blue or Green.


For our Zendikar game, we took the classes as sets of abilities rather than archetypes. Archetypes are more defined by association (i.e. a green wizard is more likely to play as a D&D druid than a blue druid). Our white/red cleric is not a D&D cleric; its a mage that casts healing spells, turns undead creatures and good at lightning magic (tempest domain).

We also use wizard's mechanics for known/prepared spells for the cleric and druid.


Hmmm, interesting. If a Green wizard is effectively a Druid, what's a druid?


Werefoowolf wrote:
Hmmm, interesting. If a Green wizard is effectively a Druid, what's a druid?

In that line of thoughts, a druid would simply be a class giving a series of abilities, among which the ability to change into an animal and a strong connection to the land (and in magic, lands can be of any color). Wild shape could easily be re-fluff as an aura if you prefer.

I'm not saying that is how one should play D&D, but if one changes the paradigm to color(s) = archetype, this can work.


I'd also say that for each color, a small list of personality traits be compiled, and be under the color's umbrella to so speak, so that that trait(s) is what keeps your color intact. So while you can be Good or Evil and be any color, White might suggest Good to be one of your roleplaying prompts to maintain your Whiteness, and Black might do the same for Evil, and Red the same goes for Chaotic. Of course the same penalties for abandoning and thus changing your alignment should then take effect, and perhaps be harsher when say a Merfolk roleplays completely outside of their Blue prompt(s). Also making mono-colored characters easier to play, for example being White/White yields you 2 choices of roleplay traits (such as Conformist & Good) so you could stop playing a character who is a conformist, or stop being good and still stay White, but not both.

I like your take on classes. I'll likely tweak it a tad, but I like where you're coming from..


Hmmm, maybe leave out the "Must be part-Green to be a Druid" sort of thing, (except for the most specific of classes, like no not-red-at-all Barbarians) and perhaps beyond just the respective color mage spell list (tailored to that class?) just reward that color-class combo with a class feature unique to that color-class. So for example a White Monk may actually gain an ability that a Black Monk would not, or a Blue Wizard would gain an ability that a White Wizard would not, or something akin to that.


I wouldn't put color restrictions on classes. 5e just did away with the alignment restrictions, let's not raise that thing from the dead.

What you could do is give something like a suggestion:

Barbarians are typically red
Green characters often become druids
Many wizards are blue
Fighters align with any color equally
Rogues tend toward blue or black
Paladins are often white.

etc.


I've done away with my pursuits of making them alignments, but most classes are an array of colors, and through spell lists, most casters would be a hodge podge of colors, and a Goblin Cleric for example would just be Red for no reason other than being a Goblin and White (or Black, or whatever color, considering differently colored deities, in part due to Theros) for no reason other than being a Cleric. The colors should be mechanically relevant, but I've yet to crack how.

Could there be color variations of each class? Like a Blue Barbarian, or Red Cleric of Purphoros, or White Druid, or Black Druid = Shaman? And if so, how to keep a Goblin Druid Red but with a Green Druid feel, or a system determining that your PC is a Red & Black Goblin Druid?


And should there simply be a White Spell List, Blue Spell List, Black Spell List, etc only used by casting classes, or a set of 5 spell lists for normal casters and one for non-casters, only one set of 5 but with casters better suited due to better access to mana points (a renamed "arcane point" system from 5e's DMG) or should there be a White Barbarian Spell List, Blue Barbarian Spell List, Black Barbarian Spell List, Red Barbarian Spell List, Green Wizard Spell List, Green Druid Spell List, Blue Wizard Spell List, etc?


Actually, this just dawned on me: What about crafting a separate set of ability scores, representing their color identity? White, Blue, Black, Red, Green, and MAYBE Colorless? (Of course I'd hope for cooler names for the abilities than just the names of the colors) and when you get mana from a terrain type, you roll a d2 or d4 (haven't decided) and add your Color Modifier to the roll to determine how many mana points of that color you add to your mana pool. For example, atm, Goblins would get +2 to Red, +1 to Green +1 to Black, (+0 to colorless?) -2 to Blue, and -2 to White. You would increase your color scores about the same way you do your ability scores (every x levels, idk if 4 is appropriate) and classes would have "spend x y-color mana points to do this", among other things. I'd say casters, such as a Goblin Wizard in this case, would get x mana = d2 + Red modifier + INT modifier when drawing mana from a mountain terrain, and to do minor effects or cast spells (whatever class) you spend mana points accordingly, but to LEARN spells of a certain color (and maybe a few equivalent character improvements) you spend mana from your maximum, hence adding the INT modifier for Wizard.

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Hype train alert!

According to this article, we should expect Plane Shift: Innistrad tomorrow.

Some regional human subraces previewed.
Edit: Kessig and Stensia seem head and shoulders over Gavony and Nephalia :/
Edit 2: Actually I guess they're just variant humans with pre-set stats, skills, and feat, and Kessig and Stensia get the better feats (Mobile and Tough over Skilled).


anyone else mildly irritated that we are getting an Innistrad book before Ravenloft? the first MtG...okay neat sure. but it kind of sounds like we are going to get a new 5E book for ever art book they release for MtG. So MtG setting are soon to have a lot more support than uh...anything traditionally associated with Dungeons and Dragons.


Hey they are talking about color aligned geists? Does that mean they actually did something similar to my idea of color based alignment?

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Here it is, Plane Shift Innistrad.

Looks like a lot of fluff, fairly light on crunch. I hope we get a full book with more crunch of some plane in the future.


From that interview, it seems they prefer to keep the crunch parts minimal on the whole planeshift project.


Good to have some free Innistrad stuff. ;)


Just started an Innestrad campaign on Monday. Rolled up a human Paladin from Gavony. Having fun so far!

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