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Not many, but yes. See here for details.
And those rules as mentioned above are optional and not official. No support is given for play at level 20+, so you'll be firmly in home brew territory for adventures. Most GMs simply cap level limit at 20th.
Another option is Mythic play.
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I'd argue that no support is given for play at level 11+. If you look at From Hell's Heart, for example, most of it is a 3rd level adventure -- sneak into a mundane fort and assassinate the mundane bad guy. But they needed it to be for 13th level, so they added 10 PC class levels to all the mook guards and called it good. By that standard, Pathfinder works at 80th level -- just make every street urchin an Advanced commoner 1/monk 20/fighter 20/barbarian 20/ranger 20, instead of just a commoner 1.
Granted, that destroys any semblance of a coherent campaign setting, and it adamantly refuses to even glance at what makes high-level play different from low-level play, but that seems to be what they expect you to do.
When we start seeing 13th level adventures be scenarios that CANNOT be run at a lower level, then we can think about 20th level.
Are there rules for characters progressing past 20th level?
What Skizzerz linked are pretty much the entirety of support for post 20th level play.. i.e. not much.
Mythic Play is essentially padding the existing 1-20th experience, not going beyond it.
And as far as module and adventure support, you're totally on your own.
Personally, I think a cap at 20th, or say 25th, using the linked rules is a sensible approach to take to this. The problems built into d20 play escalate exponentially as the levels rise.
Paizo has not yet published anything that would be considered epic (post 20th level) rules. I believe there is some 3rd party support for such rules out there, however, so that may be a solution for you.
Mythic was Paizo's attempt at incorporating some themes which were often used in high level play into the normal 20-level progression found in the Core Rulebook. Some use it as post-20 progression.
When last I checked (which has been awhile, admittedly) Paizo has no plans for publishing actual epic content (post-20th level) and felt that Mythic would suffice for players seeking epic level content.
Basically, if you want 3.5-style epic-level play, you'll need to pick up a copy of the 3.5 Dungeons & Dragons Epic Level Handbook, and convert/adapt the rules for Pathfinder yourself.
The basic rules work decently in most cases. The new classes might need some attention, but they all seem to fit the formulas.
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Sometime in the next 3 to 6 months Little Red Goblin Games will be releasing their redesigned Legendary levels.
Just run Pathfinder in e20 style and call it good. Note you can also layer the mythic rules on top of "Pathfinder e20," as well: e20 for normal "level" progression from XP and mythic for narrative events outside of the regular XP system.
IMO, avoid the 3.X epic rules. Slog through 20 levels to find your character is the "snot-nosed FNG" again, probably needs to be "rebuilt" to qualify for most of the "good" options*, and everything is just like normal high-level play (only with bigger numbers**)...
*- unless you spent the last 20 levels planning your character advancement for an epic game
**- and less flavor
Only one of my games in recent history got close enough to 20th for me to consider it, but all the players drifted apart. My tables generally don't apply a level cap, though it has yet to come into play in years.
Someone has converted / is working on the epic level handbook i believe
I'd argue that no support is given for play at level 11+. If you look at From Hell's Heart, for example, most of it is a 3rd level adventure -- sneak into a mundane fort and assassinate the mundane bad guy. But they needed it to be for 13th level, so they added 10 PC class levels to all the mook guards and called it good. By that standard, Pathfinder works at 80th level -- just make every street urchin an Advanced commoner 1/monk 20/fighter 20/barbarian 20/ranger 20, instead of just a commoner 1.
Granted, that destroys any semblance of a coherent campaign setting, and it adamantly refuses to even glance at what makes high-level play different from low-level play, but that seems to be what they expect you to do.
When we start seeing 13th level adventures be scenarios that CANNOT be run at a lower level, then we can think about 20th level.
Your generic king is a lvl 16 aristocrat.
You see, what interest me is that last paragraph."Adventure that cannot be done at lower levels" is odd concept. Just like adding class levels to all enemies to make them higher CR can be seen as cheap method, I can come up with lot of methods to make any scenario into a "fake fantastic" thing.
Rescue the princess, but the twist is that she is SPACE PRINCESS!
GUARDED BY SPACE DRAGON.
Dungeon crawl, but in some plane that is just like the other normal plane but here everything shines and is twi- no three times as tall!
At the same time, the game system has elements in it that rapidly escalate the power levels of characters. But at the same time, published content does best to ignore this to make more cohesive storylines.
Because while you can spice things up by making that mundane castle a magical castle from the shadow realm, you are still breaking into a castle. So they keep it as how it is.
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I'd argue that no support is given for play at level 11+. If you look at From Hell's Heart, for example, most of it is a 3rd level adventure -- sneak into a mundane fort and assassinate the mundane bad guy. But they needed it to be for 13th level, so they added 10 PC class levels to all the mook guards and called it good. By that standard, Pathfinder works at 80th level -- just make every street urchin an Advanced commoner 1/monk 20/fighter 20/barbarian 20/ranger 20, instead of just a commoner 1.
Granted, that destroys any semblance of a coherent campaign setting, and it adamantly refuses to even glance at what makes high-level play different from low-level play, but that seems to be what they expect you to do.
When we start seeing 13th level adventures be scenarios that CANNOT be run at a lower level, then we can think about 20th level.
While I sort of agree - there's a limit to how much they can do that in published adventures.
After all - they don't know the make-up of the groups which will be playing through them, so there is a limit to what sort of character abilities which they can assume the PCs have.
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While I sort of agree - there's a limit to how much they can do that in published adventures.After all - they don't know the make-up of the groups which will be playing through them, so there is a limit to what sort of character abilities which they can assume the PCs have.
Actually, I disagree. One of the marks of high level play is that the characters can, literally, do anything.
* Clerics have access to virtually any spell in the book.
* Wizards have access to virtually any spell in the book via buying a scroll
* Sorcerers have access to virtually any spell in the book via pages of spell knowledge
* Martials have access to any sort of equipment they can afford
* Similarly, summoned monsters, simulacra, and such allow characters access to all sorts of abilities they would not normally have
This means that, given time, there is no limit---in a quite literal sense---to what they can do. Which of course gets back to Kirth's point, but it needs to be viewed appropriately.
Yes, there are only 7, or 13, or 20, or whatever, "basic plots" in literature, and rescuing a princess from a dragon is an instance of one of them. What makes a plot high or low level is precisely the types and variety of abilities needed to succeed. There's nothing wrong with rescuing a SPACE princess from a SPACE dragon -- just make the difference between a normal dragon and a SPACE dragon something interesting beyond another 200 hit points and +15 BAB.
And one of the things I can do in high-level play, for example, is design a castle that I plan to be impregnable, because I don't need to deliberately put a loophole or two for the mice to use to sneak it. My ventilation ducts really are too small to crawl through, my Legions of Terror wear plexiglass helmets that let me see who they are, and my minions will be trained in basic security tactics.
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While I sort of agree - there's a limit to how much they can do that in published adventures.After all - they don't know the make-up of the groups which will be playing through them, so there is a limit to what sort of character abilities which they can assume the PCs have.
Actually, I disagree. One of the marks of high level play is that the characters can, literally, do anything.
* Clerics have access to virtually any spell in the book.
* Wizards have access to virtually any spell in the book via buying a scroll
* Sorcerers have access to virtually any spell in the book via pages of spell knowledge
* Martials have access to any sort of equipment they can afford
* Similarly, summoned monsters, simulacra, and such allow characters access to all sorts of abilities they would not normally have
I mostly agree - but what if a group doesn't have any 9 level casters? Their options are much more limited.
Also - to be blunt - what if the players are inept? What if they aren't good at coming up with solutions. APs are meant to be playable by everyone. YOUR players might be able to figure out how to get into the seemingly impregnable castle, but not every players are that smart and/or rules savvy.
Though - I suppose they could come out with a couple of them which would become known as the tricky modules, just as Bonekeep is known as a killer one. *shrug* I don't know enough about their marketing/sales to know if it'd be worthwhile.
Because while you can spice things up by making that mundane castle a magical castle from the shadow realm, you are still breaking into a castle. So they keep it as how it is.
Simply putting the castle on the Plane of Shadow is fine for 9th level PCs -- that's when plane shift comes on line so they can even reach the thing. Better still, put it on the Plane of Fire, because the PCs have access to protection from energy and so on as well. But, yeah, at 15th level, those scenarios are obsolete -- too low-level -- and we need to up the ante again. So instead of being imprisoned in a castle, or in a castle on another plane, our rescuee is in suspended animation in a pore 45 miles below the sea floor in the middle of the Abyss somewhere, and is warded against standard divinations so you don't even know where to start looking.
Take a look at what spells can do. Higher-level adventures should be based on them doing those things. By the time you have access to 9th level spells, the designer should be making up near-impossible scenarios and say, with no prior idea how they'll proceed, "figure it out."
Your generic king is a lvl 16 aristocrat.
Which is equivalent to an 8th level PC sorcerer, so that tells you that people with 10 levels in PC classes are already way beyond mere kings.
Simply adding a bunch of class levels to the mooks and leaving everything else the same leads to a situation where each "mook" is easily capable of conquering entire kingdoms single-handedly, and the players will quickly wonder why they aren't doing just that, instead of all of them passively performing grunt guard duty for no apparent reason.
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That was something of a complaint I had with the final adventure of Reign of Winter. It didn't feel high level, it was just a series of short dungeon-like environments for us to fight through and get the McGuffin/kill the BBEG. Terrain wasn't varied enough, not much in the way of tactics was required. A lot of our spellcasting was used to make what terrain effects were in play irrelevant, but even without that our 15-16th level characters were clearly outclassing the adventure design. So while I enjoyed it, I still had that caveat in the back of my mind.
I know this doesn't add to anything, but the statblock for the level 16 "CR 14" King is the sorriest and most pathetic "CR 14" I've ever seen, haha. It's really more like CR 6 or 7 at best.
The conflict is that the natural progression to "more difficult" levels is too hard to manage narratively.
Plane shift is akin to just teleporting to another level, Mario jumps through the painting into the aquatic level and has an aquatic adventure. Golarion is ALREADY a kitchen sink setting that almost sinks on its own weight, the frail veil to make it seem that the world is natural is fought with tooth and nail.
Using the full use of all the planes and magic and whatnot to create a big challenging castle in the shadow dimension is all good and fun, but is it natural? Not natural in that "is it possible in pathfinder" because it is, more like "is it natural in this exact moment"? Does he live there daily, does he order his pizza to the shadowrealm castle? What is the infrastructure of this matter?
It is hard to put to words, but where does the line go between challenge feeling artificial? If you got a lich and he wanted to make an evil hideout, sure put him into the negative plane, why not. But if you are, like you referenced, just fighting for the freedom of a NORMAL city, it does not feel natural for the flip to be switched at some point and you ... leave the normal city to fight in a new place, the next level.
Two types. If your campaign is what you could call "globe trotting", then you have easy time changing scenery. Star Trek, engage warp drive and go see the next exotic place. James Bond, your next clue leads you to Istanbul! If your campaign is centered on a single city, nation or planet, you stay in that one area forever. The Naked City would had been weird if the next clue would had been in florida all the sudden. And unless you pull an Underdark, you are not going to introduce the next level to the city without messing with the natural order.
One of the many advantages of higher level play is the fact that PCs are imminently more "recoverable" than at lower levels.
Having a group of NPCs teleport in and alpha-strike a group of low-level PCs is pretty certain to lead to a total party wipe and new characters (possibly new players). Having it happen to high level PCs may involve the loss of simulacra, use of resources for raise dead and an intense interest in who had the ability to find / get to the PCs in their pocket demi planes or other sanctums. In short, the GM has to hold back less and PCs may have to devote more resources to day-to-day things rather than assuming that the adventure is waiting for them (they may actually be the targets of other adventuring parties at this point).
The higher the level, the more tools and smarter/ more effective opponents a GM can throw at PCs and the more they can break out of the realm of "expected / anticipated" adventures.
Also, to be fair, the point about published modules is apt. Keep in mind that most things published by Paizo at this point are for middle-of-the-road, 15-pt build parties of four. In my experience, very little high level gaming actually matches this description.
This system is vital as I hold that PCs need 30-50 class levels to ascend to being deities.
There are at least several ex-mortals of Golarion who disagree. I wouldn't be surprised if the Lucky Drunk was no more than a 5th level fighter when he passed the test.
Godhood should be something other than an equation which reads X amount of levels equals God.
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Seriously, though...1-20 covers people that can kill hundreds with a melee weapon, teleport between planets, and bring people back from the dead without so much as a molecule of the corpse. If you want more than that, perhaps you should be looking at something like Mutants & Masterminds?
Basically, if you want 3.5-style epic-level play, you'll need to pick up a copy of the 3.5 Dungeons & Dragons Epic Level Handbook, and convert/adapt the rules for Pathfinder yourself.Pssst...the ELH was 3.0. :)
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